Morrissey’s view on gender identity

[Orange Crush]

nothing is black-and-white

My tv is.

 

[goinghome]

From what I know, she's good at keeping an open mind under extreme pressure.

I think Elevatorgate in 2011 is the point at which online discourse became a blood sport - with jobs & friendships being lost & people pinging back & forth between warring tribes.

You could look into the SWERF/James Cantor drama if you want to lose the will to live/use it for some nefarious purposes etc.

Thank you. Keeping an open mind under extreme pressure is a desirable trait.

Elevatorgate passed me by. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/elevatorgate Wow! Good to get such a widespread debate going, I guess.

SWERFs are also new to me:

"Sex worker exclusionary radical feminism (SWERF) emerged as a response to the Third-wave’s more inclusive, intersectional approach to gender inequality, and is characterized primarily by discrimination against individuals engaged in sex work. These individuals include but are not limited to prostitutes, pornography models and actors, phone sex operators, erotic dancers, and web cam performers.

The argument behind SWERF ideology tends to be that sex workers, particularly those in the prostitution and pornography industries, become the victims of regular sexual objectification, exploitation, and violence; and that, by participating in this kind of industry, sex workers become co-perpetrators of these crimes.

In return, would you care to learn something about how fossil fuels feed toxic masculinity? I'm not a man

A space for guys to work out issues is at https://goodmenproject.com/about/

The safety, dignity, and hard-fought-for rights of women in society in general and sport is a black-and-white, non-negotiable for me. When a man can declare himself a woman, the only losers are women. That is pretty stark, spiky, and non-nebulous.

I sense compassion in this view. Even if transitioning wasn't possible, though, some gender greys have always existed, either because of biological diversity or for cultural and personal reasons. Take my hand and off we stride

 

[Lionel Cliffhanger]

nothing is black-and-white

There are only two sexes. And you can’t move from one to another, no matter how people feel or change thier physical bodies

That’s pretty black and white.

 

[JM🇬🇧]

I struggle to get why issues like gender and trans are so dominant in our cultural discourse. I don’t think we would be talking about it if it wasn’t for the internet.

Speaking of technology, I bet if you travelled back in time 200 years and told people that every person alive in 2024 would have a device in their pocket that contained all of the worlds knowledge they would assume that we would all be enlightened and highly intelligent and yet when you look at the news we seem to be trying to grapple with understanding what a woman is.

The thing that really bugs me about this way of thinking is the reduction of maleness/femaleness essentially to gender stereotypes. If being a man or woman is nothing to do with your body parts, your biology and your chromosomes then the only way to define it is by your personality and ‘gender role’.
But personalities across the sexes are diverse, men can have typically ‘female’ interests and temperaments, I do not in any way think that this puts them on a spectrum of gender or makes them any less of a man.
Being a man or woman is so innate and such a fundamental part of who we are.

I had a debate with a friend about a ‘boy’ that they knew who was born female. They look like a girl in every way and do not even display any ‘male’ characteristics that are supposedly what define your gender rather than your biology.

My question to anybody like this is: If you say you feel like a man, what makes you think that you know what being a man feels like? What is your frame of reference for feeling like that?

I am not saying I am correct about any of this, it is just how I perceive the situation.

 

[Malarkey]

In return, would you care to learn something about how fossil fuels feed toxic masculinity? I'm not a man

A space for guys to work out issues is at https://goodmenproject.com/about/

Thanks, I will look into it!

 

[Malarkey]

There are only two sexes. And you can’t move from one to another, no matter how people feel or change thier physical bodies

That’s pretty black and white.

Well, yes - but also, no.

People are changing themselves - & sometimes it's convincing & sometimes it's not. And that's going to create odd situations.

For instance - these make-up videoes were turning up on my socials for years - had literally no idea she was born a boy.

 

[No 27]

Well, yes - but also, no.

People are changing themselves - & sometimes it's convincing & sometimes it's not. And that's going to create odd situations.

For instance - these make-up videoes were turning up on my socials for years - had literally no idea she is a boy.

Fixed.

 

[Lionel Cliffhanger]

Well, yes - but also, no.

People are changing themselves - & sometimes it's convincing & sometimes it's not. And that's going to create odd situations.

For instance - these make-up videoes were turning up on my socials for years - had literally no idea she was born a boy.

sure… some people might be able to pass as the opposite sex but usually only via filters and make up on film/photos. Far less convincing in person. Pretty much everyone, even very young children can correctly identify the correct sex of someone in practice (regardless of haircuts/clothes/jewellery).

Even if very few people can pass occasionally, they can’t change their biological sex. It’s in our DNA.

Interestingly and horrifyingly, occasions have been recorded of dementia sufferers being very confused as to their sex many years after having ‘sex change’ operations. This implies that deep down we all know the truth.

 

[Malarkey]

sure… some people might be able to pass as the opposite sex but usually only via filters and make up on film/photos. Far less convincing in person. Pretty much everyone, even very young children can correctly identify the correct sex of someone in practice (regardless of haircuts/clothes/jewellery).

Even if very few people can pass occasionally, they can’t change their biological sex. It’s in our DNA.

Interestingly and horrifyingly, occasions have been recorded of dementia sufferers being very confused as to their sex many years after having ‘sex change’ operations. This implies that deep down we all know the truth.

I don't think you can set it in stone like that.

Creating stronger rules around bullying, harassment & safetly within shared space that covers all gender eventualities is probably the direction we have to go in. And - even thought it's awkward now - I think it'll work out ok.

 

[JM🇬🇧]

Not sure if this has been posted already. But if you haven’t seen it, pop the kettle on and give it a watch.

 

[TheSmiths_1985]

Not sure if this has been posted already. But if you haven’t seen it, pop the kettle on and give it a watch.

Watched this last week. Very interesting, but that guy with the glasses on has the most annoyingly nasal voice I have ever heard.

 

[Anna anna]

No issue with gender id but its been a media campaign of subversion

 

[goinghome]

Were Morrissey's comments from 1984 on the fourth gender already mentioned?
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/the-smiths-out-to-save-rock-roll-62389/

 

[gashonthenail]

Were Morrissey's comments from 1984 on the fourth gender already mentioned?
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/the-smiths-out-to-save-rock-roll-62389/

sex = biological sex, the outward physical and bodily differences
gender = the social and cultural differences

It's important to be clear on such things. Sex matters.

Sex Matters

We are campaigning to establish that sex matters in rules, laws, policies, language and culture.

sex-matters.org

 

[Malarkey]

sex = biological sex, the outward physical and bodily differences
gender = the social and cultural differences

It's important to be clear on such things. Sex matters.

Sex Matters

We are campaigning to establish that sex matters in rules, laws, policies, language and culture.

sex-matters.org

It depends what you think it matters for.

All you ever do is use him for your political position & your side is currently obsessed with the idea that some members of the LGBTQ+ community are trying to groom children.

Morrissey has several scandals in his past that they could use against him.

The main GCs won't touch him with a barge pole.

So, if you want to f*** him over - this will work.

If you want the GCs to launder your bigotry - it won't.

 

[gashonthenail]

It depends what you think it matters for.

All you ever do is use him for your political position & your side is currently obsessed with the idea that some members of the LGBTQ+ community are trying to groom children.

I'm not sure what or whose side you think I am on? But that speaks volumes. I know this side obsession means a lot to you. It is really not healthy, Karen.
Morrissey is a grown man - and on any topic can speak for himself. Which he has done, on many occasions. He is beyond being claimed by any side, left or right.

 

[Malarkey]

I'm not sure what or whose side you think I am on? But that speaks volumes. I know this side obsession means a lot to you. It is really not healthy, Karen.
Morrissey is a grown man - and on any topic can speak for himself. Which he has done, on many occasions. He is beyond being claimed by any side, left or right.

You know exactly what side I think you're on.

And you lie about Morrissey on a regular basis.

 

[Ashley_TakeABow]

I, for one, am sick of the topic. We should just leave people alone with whatever gender they want to gravitate toward.

On this similar topic, from all the interviews I've watched and read, he seems to be sick of the question about what "side" he's on. I think he's simply bisexual. Reading his Autobiography made me realize that. He's loved men, he's loved women... So.. bisexual.

Now then, that is cleared up, so when can this stop being a question/topic of interest?

 

[Anonymous]

We should just leave people alone with whatever gender they want to gravitate toward.

In general I don't have a problem with that. The only trouble is when these people insist that everyone else accepts their view of reality, and demand inclusion into spaces (and sports) designed solely for biological women. That's when they start infringing on other people's rights.

 

[goinghome]

When gashonthenail and Malarkey start fighting, I get agitated. It's a bit like finding \our parents arguing!

A few cautionary words here

There is a connection between arguments and those who pronounce them but it is not straightforward or preordained. It might be relevant information, another layer of the analysis, but not the end of the story. Whatever an individual ‘old white man’ pronounces might have blindspots, having not faced racism or patriarchal oppression in his life. But that does not mean that everything he says—including about patriarchy and racism—can be explained away by his presumed intent to maintain privilege.

- https://www.socialeurope.eu/identity-politics-in-defence-of-old-white-men

Elsewhere Mozzer1980 posted this parody of wokeness, just for comedy relief value