Why does it seem like everyone hates ROTT ?

[Maurice E]

It's all about opinions obviously, but in my view this album is just dreadful (and YATQ wasn't much better if at all)

The worry for me is when an artist who is so gifted is prepared to release work which is so half-baked and sub-standard.....does Morrissey actually think his last 2 albums are worthy pieces of work?

Either way, the obvious verdict is "Could Do Better"

Morrissey is (rightly or wrongly) totally obsessed with chart positions and record sales and, on those terms, his last two albums have been two of his very best (solo or Smith) so, yes, he probably does think that they are extremely worthy pieces of work.

I'd love for him ro see Houdini's poll. Then he'd see what we, his fans, really think of his songs. He doesn't trust music journalists' opinions. But if he saw that we'd all given virtually every song from the ROTT less than 8 out of 10, the penny might drop that it's not the career high he'd have us believe...

 

[faroffplaces]

Morrissey is (rightly or wrongly) totally obsessed with chart positions and record sales and, on those terms, his last two albums have been two of his very best (solo or Smith) so, yes, he probably does think that they are extremely worthy pieces of work.

I'd love for him ro see Houdini's poll. Then he'd see what we, his fans, really think of his songs. He doesn't trust music journalists' opinions. But if he saw that we'd all given virtually every song from the ROTT less than 8 out of 10, the penny might drop that it's not the career high he'd have us believe...

He's allowed to love an album you and the other poll voters disliked. Believe it or not, your opinion -and even the opinion of you and a hundred friends- is not canonical law.

I really doubt that Morrissey bases his artistic opinion of an album on how well it sells. If so, he wouldn't have gone into the business at all; he'd have been satisfied with listening to the works of Wham! which by that standard were high art at the time.

I admire ROTT as highly as anything he's ever done. I find Vauxhall a bit average. It's my schtick, but it's true.

 

[chrisarclark]

if they wish to be taken seriously in this thread, people need to stop referring to Vauxhall And I as "average". calling it anything short of a masterpiece renders any other opinions on taste or music null. the only legitimate argument to VAI not being Morrissey's greatest solo work is Your Arsenal (some time may be given to consider the initial triumph, Viva Hate, but inevitably the rose-coloured glasses must come off and it too must fall away). to refer to VAI as "average" clearly denotes an severe and tragic hearing impairment.

 

[faroffplaces]

if they wish to be taken seriously in this thread, people need to stop referring to Vauxhall And I as "average". calling it anything short of a masterpiece renders any other opinions on taste or music null. the only legitimate argument to VAI not being Morrissey's greatest solo work is Your Arsenal (some time may be given to consider the initial triumph, Viva Hate, but inevitably the rose-coloured glasses must come off and it too must fall away). to refer to VAI as "average" clearly denotes an severe and tragic hearing impairment.

It's to your taste and not mine, dude.

Opinion: 1) taste isn't canonical law, and it's impossible to make an argument about it, legitimate or no. 2) We can write about why something should be held in higher esteem, and we can be intellectually or even emotionally convinced by the other party, but we can't really change the particular qualities that we think make up a good artwork, and we'll revert at the slightest provocation.

That said, a good starting point might be not assuming that the other party is deaf or stupid or naive. This is impossible to do completely, I realize, and anyone who claims they take every opinion with a completely open mind is lying. Probably.



Vauxhall is not an average album. It's a superb album. It's average for Morrissey. I'll acknowledge that it's extremely successful at what it tries to do, at conveying that complex and emotionally fraught state of mind, and I enjoy listening to it. What I said was overly glib.

Nonetheless, I stand by the basic opinion. I'd pick ROTT over Vauxhall if I had to have just one for the rest of my life. ROTT is not always successful but I find it more interesting to tangle with; I like my Morrissey with grit and confusion and artistic decisions that nobody's ever quite certain about.

 

[Nikita]

I quite like ROTT except of course the songs after Life is a pigsty, though At last I am born is listenable, but I think all our opinions on Morrissey's work depend a lot on the moment we discovered his records

I am almost sure that people who are into Morrissey since YATQ are more keen on his last two albums than fans who follow him since Viva Hate

 

[Harsh Truth]

I like "You Have Killed Me," (ranks in my Top 10 Morrissey songs ever) "The Youngest Was the Most Loved," "On the Streets I Ran," and somedays "I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now" and (gasp!) "At Last I Am Born."

As for the rest - I can generally do without.

I haven't listened to Quarry as a whole in ages - I'll have to have a listen to see how it stands up.

 

[Anaesthesine]

Musically, I like the album less and less, I'm afraid. I am not overjoyed with Visconti's production. I agree with others here who think it is both dull and overwrought. I still like ROTT's production better than YATQ's (which was distractingly bad), but it does sound dated already. Dad Rock is about right.

I am also not fond of Jesse's songwriting, which is somewhat pedestrian. His songs just chug along - they are seldom more than adequate. Live, his songs do fare better, but Morrissey deserves a more fluid, melodious collaborator. Thank goodness Alain is back. I'm also liking Boz's "Paris" very much.

On the plus side, I am one of those people who is actually enjoying Morrissey's attitude more these days, and I am old enough to remember The Smiths. Yes, he has lost that initial spark - Chrisarclark is right. Morrissey is closing in on fifty, and he is at that point where he has said what he needed to say. However, what he has lost in youthful fire and uncertainty he has almost made up for in a rueful, hysterical maturity. I like the attitude on ROTT, and if Morrissey can just stop those "showers of panic" (his own words) long enough to really examine life again lyrically, he could illuminate middle-aged pain and absurdity like no one else. I love his vision of himself, I just hope he can articulate it somewhat better than he did on this album.

"Pigsty," "Hero," "You Have Killed Me" and "Dear God" are songs to be proud of. The rest just sort of lie there, in my opinion.

 

[faroffplaces]

I quite like ROTT except of course the songs after Life is a pigsty, though At last I am born is listenable, but I think all our opinions on Morrissey's work depend a lot on the moment we discovered his records

I am almost sure that people who are into Morrissey since YATQ are more keen on his last two albums than fans who follow him since Viva Hate

I strongly suspect so. I simply missed the era when his music seemed to represent an extreme choice between death and hope - he's about the aftermath of that idea now, not the idea itself, and this constantly colors my reactions to his earlier and later work. Also, I came in when the public attitude towards Moz has become almost comfortably disgusted, rather than seriously rageful as it once was, and that also affects the ways in which I am driven to consider and defend him.

Having been in at the beginning of only a very few of my favorite acts, I can only extrapolate/imagine what it must've been like. Sort of like being in love and sort of like being stabbed with tiny hot needles, one suspects - I mean, the moment when you first heard "National Front Disco" in real time...! Or: "Oh my God, Morrissey's heart is full...!"

...But I stand by my (newness-related) love of Ringleader and (general) respect for Quarry. I think that his career has been consistently great.

 

[jeanesmith]

I find it funny and telling that people's opinions differ so widely. For example, people calling I Just Want to See the Boy Happy, I Just Want to Be Crappy or whatever. I think it's one of the best songs on the album and certainly the best single from the album. I also think The Father Who Must Be Killed is one of the better songs on the album. Someone said they think To Me You Are A Work of Art is beautiful, and I find it a bore. Overall, I think there are a lot of weak songs on Ringleader, but it has it's good moments as well.
As for taste, well beauty is in the eye, and so on. People on this site need to respect each other more and be more polite and kind. Everyone's different and that's what makes it interesting. If we all agreed with your opinion, there'd be no point to having a discussion in the first place.

 

[Comtesse]

I find it funny and telling that people's opinions differ so widely. For example, people calling I Just Want to See the Boy Happy, I Just Want to Be Crappy or whatever. I think it's one of the best songs on the album and certainly the best single from the album. I also think The Father Who Must Be Killed is one of the better songs on the album. Someone said they think To Me You Are A Work of Art is beautiful, and I find it a bore. Overall, I think there are a lot of weak songs on Ringleader, but it has it's good moments as well.
As for taste, well beauty is in the eye, and so on. People on this site need to respect each other more and be more polite and kind. Everyone's different and that's what makes it interesting. If we all agreed with your opinion, there'd be no point to having a discussion in the first place.

I think people on this site are very respectful, even when having grossly different opinions. For example, I don't think I'm disrespectful in suggesting that you must have some synapses misfiring if you seriously think that "I Just Want To See The Boy Happy" is one of the best songs on the album.

 

[joanofarcswalkman]

I think people on this site are very respectful, even when having grossly different opinions. For example, I don't think I'm disrespectful in suggesting that you must have some synapses misfiring if you seriously think that "I Just Want To See The Boy Happy" is one of the best songs on the album.

Touches nose in a charades like fashion

 

[Chartres]

I think people on this site are very respectful, even when having grossly different opinions. For example, I don't think I'm disrespectful in suggesting that you must have some synapses misfiring if you seriously think that "I Just Want To See The Boy Happy" is one of the best songs on the album.

Well, "I Just Want To See The Boy Happy" is certainly a catchy pop song in my opinion. They're no classic lines but lines such as "" still tinkles your imagination. And then of course it's near-genius (read: Moz) to name the song that way. I would lie if I said that I didn't love the title more then the song, but such is the case with many Ringleader-songs. Great titles. A song called "I Just Want To See The Boy Happy" makes me more interested then if a song is called "Radio Nowhere" (although the second song is better).

 

[jeniphir]

I already gave my spiel about this album, but it later occurred to me to mention that one interesting way to look at it is as an homage to Dante's Divine Comedy/Inferno. The songs cannot, the way they are ordered on the album, be exactly matched up to the layers of Hell in the Inferno, but an argument could be made that "Ringleader" is loosely based on it.

I'm sure I'm not the first person this has occurred to. . .It just dawned on me once when I'd finished listening to it all the way through that it reminded me of the Inferno, so I refreshed my memory of it with a quick trip through the int3rw3b (hadn't read it since college), and it seems unlikely to me that it's mere coincidence.

Plus, you know, Italy.

--jeniphir

 

[MelissaY1]

Most people slag on about ROTT , yet never seem to back up their derision with any meaningful comments or reasons why they think it sucks .

Here is your chance to tell us all why you think ROTT is shite .


I actually love this album , i thought it was some of his better work , the malaise and pain is so much more generalized and mature .

I have also heard people complain about it who are diehard Moz fans and say this album sucks. I don't HATE it. But I do think it starts to fall a little bit flat during the second half. To me it kind of loses a bit of steam after "The Father Who Must Be Killed" but that's my opinion. I don't have a specific reason for why that is, but I just find some of the later songs drag.

I was excited when I heard that Ennio Morricone was going to be involved and I was disappointed by "At Last I Am Born". It just doesn't have structure for me songwriting wise or musically. Not that I'm saying I want every track to be a rollicking hit, or catchy but I at least like my music memorable and/or giving me a sense of emotion and I just don't get that from the second half although "I Want to see the Boy Happy" has grown on me.

I liked Quarry a lot better as an album as far as songs however I liked the way ROTT was produced as I'm a huge Bowie fan as well and of course Visconti worked with Bowie so I like the production values it has.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

I already gave my spiel about this album, but it later occurred to me to mention that one interesting way to look at it is as an homage to Dante's Divine Comedy/Inferno. The songs cannot, the way they are ordered on the album, be exactly matched up to the layers of Hell in the Inferno, but an argument could be made that "Ringleader" is loosely based on it.

I'm sure I'm not the first person this has occurred to. . .It just dawned on me once when I'd finished listening to it all the way through that it reminded me of the Inferno, so I refreshed my memory of it with a quick trip through the int3rw3b (hadn't read it since college), and it seems unlikely to me that it's mere coincidence.

Plus, you know, Italy.

--jeniphir

Ooh... interesting theory. I'm going to check that out. Thank you!

 

[faroffplaces]

I already gave my spiel about this album, but it later occurred to me to mention that one interesting way to look at it is as an homage to Dante's Divine Comedy/Inferno. The songs cannot, the way they are ordered on the album, be exactly matched up to the layers of Hell in the Inferno, but an argument could be made that "Ringleader" is loosely based on it.

I'm sure I'm not the first person this has occurred to. . .It just dawned on me once when I'd finished listening to it all the way through that it reminded me of the Inferno, so I refreshed my memory of it with a quick trip through the int3rw3b (hadn't read it since college), and it seems unlikely to me that it's mere coincidence.

Plus, you know, Italy.

--jeniphir

That's really interesting! ROTT has always felt, to me, as if it has a few specific textual roots whose presence is implied rather than referenced - not as if it maps directly onto an existing text, but more as if he just had a few very old and very specific ideas strongly in mind.

For awhile I had a theory about the Stations of the Cross, but though "You Have Killed Me" and "The Youngest Was The Most Loved" connect temptingly to Jesus falling for the first time and then meeting his mother, the divergence eventually becomes too great for me to really keep the idea around.

I'll have to read a lot more on the subject (since I hardly remember the Inferno at all). Good eye!

EDIT: Well, dammit: Circle Two, the lustful; Circle Seven, the violent (including suicides). Not to mention "I Will See You In Far-Off Places" and its suggestions of an afterlife, and the fact that it ends with a birth; the two endpieces could, if you wanted them to, literally place the whole thing in a quasi-Catholic hell! In fact, I'd be happy if that was in his mind, because it would give "At Last I Am Born" a reason to exist.

(And yes, I realize that the reincarnation would be Moz' own addition - unless it's not reincarnation and Moz leaves "hell" because he's taking the Dante role, half-involved, but ultimately just passing through.)

There's nothing else that's that direct, and of course the album goes on for three tracks after Dante is finished, but you could have a lot of fun with this. It's such a great, unsolvable literary puzzle.

(If the Dante's there, btw, the title becomes really awesome.)