Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
Hear, hear.
Hear, hear.
UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gig
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nogodsnomasters85
Not Stirred
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
Good show... I like you.
Good show... I like you.
Vulgar Picture
nostalgic
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
Firstly in case there is any confusion, let me clarify that I'm male...
which I didn't deny, so when it's used out of context to shout down criticism of the west and defence of the Iranian people, then yes, I am right to compare it to The Sun journalism. If I was a supporter of the Iranian regime it may have been right to use such a photo, but I'm not, so it's out of context and sensationalist.
No but women are nearly always in charge of caring for the family, so cuts in healthcare hit women hardest. If grandad or little Johnny is sick, then statistically it is overhwelmingly the women int he family who ahve to care for them
It is the governments job to keep bosses in check, it's the government which protects their property rights in the first place! It's extremely hard for people to stand up to their bosses when doing so can get you fired and with nowehere to go, so yes the government needs to be much stronger at protecting workers. one worker is not equally powerful to his or her employers. if we were they would be working for us.
That's the whole other problem. "Count yourself lucky you don't have it as bad as them". Well how about if we were all better off?
I remember a great quote by the Madres of the Plaza de Mayo, Argentinian human rights campaigners whose children ahd been killed by the US-supported miltiary dictatorship. Someone asked them what people in Britain could do to help Argentinians. They didn't say "send a letter to Argentina complaining", they didn't say "tell your own government to punish Argentina", instead they said "fight for what is right in your own country, like we do in ours, because we face the same enemy".
yes there are such things as male models, but society judges men on a lot more than their looks. men in our society are not primarily sexual objects for women.
I don't accept that women will always have body issues. Women in every society in hsitory have not had body issues. If they do in ours today that's a problem which someone is causing, and which we can fight to solve.
Firstly in case there is any confusion, let me clarify that I'm male...
which I didn't deny, so when it's used out of context to shout down criticism of the west and defence of the Iranian people, then yes, I am right to compare it to The Sun journalism. If I was a supporter of the Iranian regime it may have been right to use such a photo, but I'm not, so it's out of context and sensationalist.
No but women are nearly always in charge of caring for the family, so cuts in healthcare hit women hardest. If grandad or little Johnny is sick, then statistically it is overhwelmingly the women int he family who ahve to care for them
It is the governments job to keep bosses in check, it's the government which protects their property rights in the first place! It's extremely hard for people to stand up to their bosses when doing so can get you fired and with nowehere to go, so yes the government needs to be much stronger at protecting workers. one worker is not equally powerful to his or her employers. if we were they would be working for us.
That's the whole other problem. "Count yourself lucky you don't have it as bad as them". Well how about if we were all better off?
I remember a great quote by the Madres of the Plaza de Mayo, Argentinian human rights campaigners whose children ahd been killed by the US-supported miltiary dictatorship. Someone asked them what people in Britain could do to help Argentinians. They didn't say "send a letter to Argentina complaining", they didn't say "tell your own government to punish Argentina", instead they said "fight for what is right in your own country, like we do in ours, because we face the same enemy".
yes there are such things as male models, but society judges men on a lot more than their looks. men in our society are not primarily sexual objects for women.
I don't accept that women will always have body issues. Women in every society in hsitory have not had body issues. If they do in ours today that's a problem which someone is causing, and which we can fight to solve.
Vulgar Picture
nostalgic
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
thanks, I appreciate it. nice sig by the way
thanks, I appreciate it. nice sig by the way
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
And I am a female, and therefore a good judge of whether I feel repressed or not.
I highly doubt steph is a supporter of the Iranian regime. What's more, a photograph showing the mistreatment of Iranian women is not out of context during a discussion of the mistreatment of Iranian women.
I don't understand what you are saying here.
You misunderstand. It is their job to protect you if you are being harrassed, but it is your responsibility to report it in the first place.
I'm not trying to say we shouldn't change things, but at the same time, it is unfair to compare our problems to theirs.
And women are not primarily sexual objects for men. I do agree that women are judged by their looks, but women judge men the same way, although I will concede that maybe they aren't judged as harshly in the media.
Men have body issues just as bad as men. Lots of men think that they have small penises, they need more muscle, they need to be taller, ect. There are many campaigns out there now to help women with body image, but it's not going to happen overnight.
And I am a female, and therefore a good judge of whether I feel repressed or not.
I highly doubt steph is a supporter of the Iranian regime. What's more, a photograph showing the mistreatment of Iranian women is not out of context during a discussion of the mistreatment of Iranian women.
I don't understand what you are saying here.
It is the governments job to keep bosses in check, it's the government which protects their property rights in the first place! It's extremely hard for people to stand up to their bosses when doing so can get you fired and with nowehere to go, so yes the government needs to be much stronger at protecting workers. one worker is not equally powerful to his or her employers. if we were they would be working for us.
You misunderstand. It is their job to protect you if you are being harrassed, but it is your responsibility to report it in the first place.
I'm not trying to say we shouldn't change things, but at the same time, it is unfair to compare our problems to theirs.
And women are not primarily sexual objects for men. I do agree that women are judged by their looks, but women judge men the same way, although I will concede that maybe they aren't judged as harshly in the media.
Men have body issues just as bad as men. Lots of men think that they have small penises, they need more muscle, they need to be taller, ect. There are many campaigns out there now to help women with body image, but it's not going to happen overnight.
D
Dave
Guest
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
I don't see how he can justify playing in a country in which he will have to agree to have his actions and his lyrics approved.
I can understand the desire to play the Middle East and I don't think that playing in any country means an endorsement of that country's actions, laws, or politics. I understand that he may think that playing there will be a positive thing in some way.
But giving up his artistic freedom to do it seems very unlike how I think of him. Regarding the danger he would be putting himself in, someone said that it's unlikely he would be in danger from the government of Iran, as they will gain from this, whereas if he were "lashed" they would lose in public opinion. So is Morrissey willing, not only to compromise his artistry, but to be used as a propaganda tool?
Sure, let's all be open-minded about Iran. We have the right in our society, to accept a country in which human rights are brutally suppressed. Go to Amnesty International and search "Iran". This isn't US government propaganda, it's a list of documented cases by a respected human rights organization.
I don't begrudge him his eccentricities and his need to do this for whatever reason, whether ego-driven, or as some sort of Goodwill Ambassador Tour. I can't support it though. The good of it, if he can go through the humiliating process of being approved by some cultural ministry of censorship, is that some people will have an experience of a lifetime to hear his music live. I'm not sure they'll be getting the real deal though. Censored Morrissey is not Morrissey. And being used by a government that is far worse than the nations he vilifies in song and in action, seems more like the action of a clueless pop star than an intelligent artist.
I don't see how he can justify playing in a country in which he will have to agree to have his actions and his lyrics approved.
I can understand the desire to play the Middle East and I don't think that playing in any country means an endorsement of that country's actions, laws, or politics. I understand that he may think that playing there will be a positive thing in some way.
But giving up his artistic freedom to do it seems very unlike how I think of him. Regarding the danger he would be putting himself in, someone said that it's unlikely he would be in danger from the government of Iran, as they will gain from this, whereas if he were "lashed" they would lose in public opinion. So is Morrissey willing, not only to compromise his artistry, but to be used as a propaganda tool?
Sure, let's all be open-minded about Iran. We have the right in our society, to accept a country in which human rights are brutally suppressed. Go to Amnesty International and search "Iran". This isn't US government propaganda, it's a list of documented cases by a respected human rights organization.
I don't begrudge him his eccentricities and his need to do this for whatever reason, whether ego-driven, or as some sort of Goodwill Ambassador Tour. I can't support it though. The good of it, if he can go through the humiliating process of being approved by some cultural ministry of censorship, is that some people will have an experience of a lifetime to hear his music live. I'm not sure they'll be getting the real deal though. Censored Morrissey is not Morrissey. And being used by a government that is far worse than the nations he vilifies in song and in action, seems more like the action of a clueless pop star than an intelligent artist.
D
Dave
Guest
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
Thank you. I liked what you wrote, too. I'm glad that people can be Morrissey fans and not automatically approve of everything he does.
Thank you. I liked what you wrote, too. I'm glad that people can be Morrissey fans and not automatically approve of everything he does.
Vulgar Picture
nostalgic
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
Sure. and so are the women I know who agree with me. I bet there are women in Iran who don't think they are opressed either.
I don't think she is a supporter of the regime. I do think it is out of context because I did not deny that the Iranian regime msitreats its people or that it discriminates against women. If I was, then she'd be right to show the photo.
That when the state cuts social security, women pay the most, because in capitalist society women are in charge of looking after the household, and always have been. And it's not changing.
No I don't go around telling people on minimum wage what their "responsibility" is while the government relaxes labour laws. it;s everyone's responsibility to fight sexism, as a society, not just the individual involved. in fact often, a mistreated worker might know they will only get int rouble if they complain, and so do not. I'm not about to accuse those people of shirking their "responsibility". Society needs to adress these issues seriosuly instead of treating everything as a one-off. Sexism is at the root of our society and we need a real battle against it. Instead the government makes it even easier for bosses to get away with discrimination.
I don't think it is unfair, I think we have the same enemy. Western societies are highly unjust and brutal, and they export that system to the underdeveloped world, where because the pie is smaller, the fight for a slice is even nastier. We should stand alongside Iranians and fight our common enemies together, like Mozza is doing.
No I don't buy that. look at anorexia and bulimia rates for women vs men. much higher.
PS I hope no offence is taken here. I am not trying to sound abrasive or intolerant, but I realise I often come across that way. It's just that the arguments you are giving me are ones I hear a lot and which I spend a lot of time arguing against.
Sure. and so are the women I know who agree with me. I bet there are women in Iran who don't think they are opressed either.
I don't think she is a supporter of the regime. I do think it is out of context because I did not deny that the Iranian regime msitreats its people or that it discriminates against women. If I was, then she'd be right to show the photo.
That when the state cuts social security, women pay the most, because in capitalist society women are in charge of looking after the household, and always have been. And it's not changing.
No I don't go around telling people on minimum wage what their "responsibility" is while the government relaxes labour laws. it;s everyone's responsibility to fight sexism, as a society, not just the individual involved. in fact often, a mistreated worker might know they will only get int rouble if they complain, and so do not. I'm not about to accuse those people of shirking their "responsibility". Society needs to adress these issues seriosuly instead of treating everything as a one-off. Sexism is at the root of our society and we need a real battle against it. Instead the government makes it even easier for bosses to get away with discrimination.
I don't think it is unfair, I think we have the same enemy. Western societies are highly unjust and brutal, and they export that system to the underdeveloped world, where because the pie is smaller, the fight for a slice is even nastier. We should stand alongside Iranians and fight our common enemies together, like Mozza is doing.
No I don't buy that. look at anorexia and bulimia rates for women vs men. much higher.
PS I hope no offence is taken here. I am not trying to sound abrasive or intolerant, but I realise I often come across that way. It's just that the arguments you are giving me are ones I hear a lot and which I spend a lot of time arguing against.
stephk817
New Member
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
The photo was posted to show the real face of a real woman who was stoned to death for for being accused of adultery. I do not support the Iranian regime at all. I think it's barbaric and backwards. I did not say that the people are because they don't have much of a choice at the moment.
As a woman it really bothers me that women can be put to death in a very tortuous way on a simple accusation of adultery.
The photo was posted to show the real face of a real woman who was stoned to death for for being accused of adultery. I do not support the Iranian regime at all. I think it's barbaric and backwards. I did not say that the people are because they don't have much of a choice at the moment.
As a woman it really bothers me that women can be put to death in a very tortuous way on a simple accusation of adultery.
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Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
Fair point, but we are talking about two different situations: American supression vs. Iranian supression, of which their is no comparison.
How is she "wrong" to show the photo? Why are we arguing the semantics of whether posting a photo is "right" or "wrong"?
As a minimuim-wage worker, I know what my rights are. I think that we should educate workers about their rights, tell them what is appropriate, what's not, what to do if it happens, etc., but at the same time we can't expect the government to watch over every single workplace. We can, however, expect them to have our back when we report our boss for misconduct.
And who exactly the common enemy here? Because the Iranian government's enemy is the American government, is it not?
Men might not have eating disorders as badly as women do, but diet pill commercials feature both men and women. Not to mention the countless adds and commercials for "natural male enhancement".
I'm not offended as you aren't being nasty. I've never argued about this before, I think I'm doing pretty good.
Fair point, but we are talking about two different situations: American supression vs. Iranian supression, of which their is no comparison.
How is she "wrong" to show the photo? Why are we arguing the semantics of whether posting a photo is "right" or "wrong"?
As a minimuim-wage worker, I know what my rights are. I think that we should educate workers about their rights, tell them what is appropriate, what's not, what to do if it happens, etc., but at the same time we can't expect the government to watch over every single workplace. We can, however, expect them to have our back when we report our boss for misconduct.
And who exactly the common enemy here? Because the Iranian government's enemy is the American government, is it not?
Men might not have eating disorders as badly as women do, but diet pill commercials feature both men and women. Not to mention the countless adds and commercials for "natural male enhancement".
PS I hope no offence is taken here. I am not trying to sound abrasive or intolerant, but I realise I often come across that way. It's just that the arguments you are giving me are ones I hear a lot and which I spend a lot of time arguing against.
I'm not offended as you aren't being nasty. I've never argued about this before, I think I'm doing pretty good.
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
I agree with you. I don't realize how Vulgar Picture found the picture irrelevant to the topic, but to each his own.
I agree with you. I don't realize how Vulgar Picture found the picture irrelevant to the topic, but to each his own.
stephk817
New Member
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
If Morrissey can boycott Canada over the government sanctioning of clubbing baby seals surely poor Iranian women who are sentenced to a slow and tortuous death on an accusation alone can get at least a little discussion here. It's one thing to discuss ideas, it's quite another to see what is really happening.
If Morrissey can boycott Canada over the government sanctioning of clubbing baby seals surely poor Iranian women who are sentenced to a slow and tortuous death on an accusation alone can get at least a little discussion here. It's one thing to discuss ideas, it's quite another to see what is really happening.
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
I remember an article in Glamour not too long ago. A seventeen year old girl was stoned to death for something minor (I don't remember what it was), and someone captured it on their phone and put it on youtube. The had stills of it in the magazine. It is terrible that people can do that to each other, and just as bad that people can stand there and capture it on their cellphone, doing nothing.
I remember an article in Glamour not too long ago. A seventeen year old girl was stoned to death for something minor (I don't remember what it was), and someone captured it on their phone and put it on youtube. The had stills of it in the magazine. It is terrible that people can do that to each other, and just as bad that people can stand there and capture it on their cellphone, doing nothing.
Vulgar Picture
nostalgic
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
No-one said Iranian women don't deserve to be discussed. I was discussing them on this thread before you arrived. I did not deny women's opression in Iran at any point, so I don't get what point you were making when you posted that photo directly below my quote as if it proved me wrong.
Also you can be disparaging about "ideas" instead of "reality" if you want, but photo's don't explain the reality behind them. Does your photo explain how the US overthrew an elected government in Iran and imposed a murderous dictator?
No-one said Iranian women don't deserve to be discussed. I was discussing them on this thread before you arrived. I did not deny women's opression in Iran at any point, so I don't get what point you were making when you posted that photo directly below my quote as if it proved me wrong.
Also you can be disparaging about "ideas" instead of "reality" if you want, but photo's don't explain the reality behind them. Does your photo explain how the US overthrew an elected government in Iran and imposed a murderous dictator?
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
No, but it does explain the mistreatment of Iranian women sufficiently enough.
No, but it does explain the mistreatment of Iranian women sufficiently enough.
CharethCutestory
Active Member
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
I don't think that that's really the point though is it. He said those things and holds those opinions. The publication that he used is irrelevant.
I don't think that that's really the point though is it. He said those things and holds those opinions. The publication that he used is irrelevant.
Paulc
On holiday by mistake
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
i am pretty sure he wont go - this is publicity seeking and lazy journalism working together in perfect harmony
i am also pretty sure the reason he said he wants to go is not to benefit the people of iran it is to make his point to the people of the UK and US. "Look at how cool and worldly i am - i would play in Iran".
i am pretty sure he wont go - this is publicity seeking and lazy journalism working together in perfect harmony
i am also pretty sure the reason he said he wants to go is not to benefit the people of iran it is to make his point to the people of the UK and US. "Look at how cool and worldly i am - i would play in Iran".
cornelius blaze
Boychild mustn't tremble!
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
So, Morrissey is just trying to sound political without really knowing anything political, sounds about right for him really!
Why does he want to play there, there isn't any real reason...it just an attention seeking name check of a country for him to use and get a headline in a newspaper. Oh look it work
If he had any real idea, he could play Canada and when on television or at a concert, air his views about the seal clubbing (which he cares about), I think that would be more effective for something he actually believes in.
So, I few horror stories about Iran's women make it in the press. I bet if you printed stories about domestic violence in the UK and how one child every week in England and Wales is killed by abuse. These women in Iran would think how lucky they are.
I wonder if there are any Muslim women here, that can post that they are happy in their life’s and their faiths and don't see it as repression. Oh, there isn't any, not because they are 'repressed'. It's because they aret not interested in a British indie pop star or his half arsed act of controversy!
I like Morrissey....but he is so Irritating sometimes.
So, Morrissey is just trying to sound political without really knowing anything political, sounds about right for him really!
Why does he want to play there, there isn't any real reason...it just an attention seeking name check of a country for him to use and get a headline in a newspaper. Oh look it work
If he had any real idea, he could play Canada and when on television or at a concert, air his views about the seal clubbing (which he cares about), I think that would be more effective for something he actually believes in.
So, I few horror stories about Iran's women make it in the press. I bet if you printed stories about domestic violence in the UK and how one child every week in England and Wales is killed by abuse. These women in Iran would think how lucky they are.
I wonder if there are any Muslim women here, that can post that they are happy in their life’s and their faiths and don't see it as repression. Oh, there isn't any, not because they are 'repressed'. It's because they aret not interested in a British indie pop star or his half arsed act of controversy!
I like Morrissey....but he is so Irritating sometimes.
PregnantForTheLastTime
Hideous trait.
Re: UK Sunday Times Article: Heaven knows I’m Muslim now - Morrissey lines up Iran gi
I'm so conflicted on this.
The root thing we are all complaining about is the treatment of women under Islam. I'm not even comfortable with the role of women in progressive Islam. It's a system designed to draw attention to sex, and absolve men of blame for their actions. Women should be able to shave their heads or (un)dress as Lady Godiva, it should make no difference. Men must keep their hands to themselves, period, unless invited to do otherwise. The right to determine one's own sexuality and sexual behavior is a fundamental human right, and Islam perverts that right.
On the other hand, while I am areligious to the extreme, I believe strongly, also, that the right to choose one's own faith is also a fundamental human right.
The people of Iran are, I'm sure, quite ordinary and probably many of them are uncomfortable with their government. There are also certainly expatriates of all kinds who would love to see Morrissey in person. And it's not entirely fair to boycott the country as a protest against the regime in charge.
However, treatment of women aside, there is reason enough to boycott Iran for its treatment of homosexuals.
And so, I think it will all come down to this: Morrissey is widely presumed to be gay. There is plenty of circumstantial and lyrical evidence to support that assumption, right or wrong. Given that, I think that unless he coughs up a wife or something very fast, Iran will not let him appear there. I would also be very disappointed if he altered his lyrics to suit their censors.
I hope he is able to do what makes him happy.
I'm so conflicted on this.
The root thing we are all complaining about is the treatment of women under Islam. I'm not even comfortable with the role of women in progressive Islam. It's a system designed to draw attention to sex, and absolve men of blame for their actions. Women should be able to shave their heads or (un)dress as Lady Godiva, it should make no difference. Men must keep their hands to themselves, period, unless invited to do otherwise. The right to determine one's own sexuality and sexual behavior is a fundamental human right, and Islam perverts that right.
On the other hand, while I am areligious to the extreme, I believe strongly, also, that the right to choose one's own faith is also a fundamental human right.
The people of Iran are, I'm sure, quite ordinary and probably many of them are uncomfortable with their government. There are also certainly expatriates of all kinds who would love to see Morrissey in person. And it's not entirely fair to boycott the country as a protest against the regime in charge.
However, treatment of women aside, there is reason enough to boycott Iran for its treatment of homosexuals.
And so, I think it will all come down to this: Morrissey is widely presumed to be gay. There is plenty of circumstantial and lyrical evidence to support that assumption, right or wrong. Given that, I think that unless he coughs up a wife or something very fast, Iran will not let him appear there. I would also be very disappointed if he altered his lyrics to suit their censors.
I hope he is able to do what makes him happy.
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