'Children In Pieces' Discussion...

I feel abandoned when I think Morrissey's lyrics accompany his growing up, and though I would find it immature if he stuck with past subjects altogether, those past subjects say more to me about my life than midlife contemplations.
If I'm seeing it correctly, this song touches a couple of past subjects and that's a security blanket for me. Still, I wonder how many of these observations on Irish or English education system are actual. I don't doubt he went to a terrible school, but, for example, i don't think Johnny did. Anyone knows? Is British education ALWAYS a synonym of brutality and alienation?

The melody is catchy, wich isn't a great thing in my book. Catchy is a step away from commercial... A bit predictable, the moment he started singing I felt like I could follow the whole tune without knowing it.

Bottom line's I liked it. I have faith in the new stuff. Good thing he saved my life before, 'cause this one wouldn't on its own.
 
"In a song you don't have that advantage, unless you have the printed lyrics, and even then they aren't always correctly punctuated. It isn't immediately apparent Morrissey is singing in a voice because you can't see if the words are set off from the rest. But I think it's safe to assume the first part of the song is in "his" voice, and the second half in the voice of those he is exposing as heartless swine."

Yes, the first part is cut and dry, no debate there.

"The "sentimental hearts" lines are not spoken by Morrissey but by "judges and priests and police and cardinals" who turn away from the abuse. It is meant to be cuttingly ironic. As I said above, hearts that should be overflowing with compassion are instead hardened, and not only that, these authority figures are so cynical they casually admit it."

Yes, and no. He confuses the issue by tossing “priests” (the abusers, i.e. “Christian Brothers”), with those complicit in their knowledge and silence.

"The key transitional line between the voices is "You say you wanna go home". The "you" is the child. The child is requesting to go home and be left alone-- why would such a child request that of anyone but its protectors? Do you really think Morrissey dreamt up a scenario where he would be in a position to hear these childrens' cries?"

You’re probably right but again, he brings this doubt on himself. He wrote a song in the “The Headmaster Ritual” in which he was the child. Then he’s written poignant observations of, “The Teachers Who Are Afraid of the Pupils.” A song which explicitly details the angst of the educator.
So is my assumption automatic? No.

When you mock the handicap while still pointing out their plight and heartbreak, i.e. “November Spawned a Monster” you open yourself up! (That song is lyrically brilliant in whole he deftly handles a nuclear bomb of a topic.) Anyway, when you mock the handicap, “Bengali on Platforms,” etc. I think the lyrics bear a closer look. He courts controversy and loves it. It’s the Morrissey playbook. That and I guarantee you Merck found out he was fired via fax…

"Finally, nobody is crediting Morrissey with compassion because he is Morrissey. "

On this we totally disagree. I think I can have a reasoned discussion with you and literally a handful of other people about Morrissey on this site. The remaining are zealots. I recall stumbling onto a Morrissey Usenet group back in ’93 when I first started listening to him and reading a post which has always stuck with me. The poster, infuriated with the idol worship, left with the following: “If Morrissey took a shit and released it you’d buy it up like it was going out of style.” Or some disgustingness to that effect.
 
I haven't been on this site long but I dont get the impression that the majority are unreasonable fanatics that dont question anything. I have seen obsession on forums and in my opinion people on here are very rational.
 
Yes, and no. He confuses the issue by tossing “priests” (the abusers, i.e. “Christian Brothers”), with those complicit in their knowledge and silence.

Not at all. No confusion. Your interpretation implies that all priests are abusers. That isn't so. A child abused by one priest would probably also be around other priests who are seen as possible sympathetic allies. In fact, it is likely one of the first people an abused child would talk to is a priest (unless all priests were perceived to be part of a corrupt system, but that's beyond the scope of the lyrics).

You’re probably right but again, he brings this doubt on himself. He wrote a song in the “The Headmaster Ritual” in which he was the child. Then he’s written poignant observations of, “The Teachers Who Are Afraid of the Pupils.” A song which explicitly details the angst of the educator.


True, he wrote two different songs about schools. But 'Pupils' doesn't indicate a reversal of opinion on his part, merely a different perspective on the same institution. 'Pupils' doesn't advocate violence, it merely illustrates how bound and gagged teachers are by overprotective laws. Not only that, the students in that song are provoking the teacher into action. They are not helpless little lambs smacked around because the teacher is "jealous of youth".

Also, he doesn't "mock" the handicapped in 'Monster'. I have no idea where you got that idea from, although that's another song whose language is heavily steeped in irony so I suppose it may seem ambiguous. But if you want to bring that one up, it's a good example, maybe the best one actually, of how he refuses sentimentality completely. The compassion is there. He wrapped it in different words, that's all. References to "monsters" and ugliness are society's judgment against the girl, not Morrissey's. He takes up the words of cruel people only to throw them back in their faces, just as he always has.

And courting controversy? Yes, I guess, but writing a song even hinting-- without Swiftian or Biafran irony-- that it's no big deal to "kick the shit" out of poor underprivileged children is something else entirely. It's not faintly believable that he would do such a thing, whether he really believed it or was looking to make a stir. Morrissey wouldn't do it; no one would.

This debate reminds me a lot of the discussions about his alleged "sympathy" for Osama bin Laden in "I Will See You In Far Off Places", about how "daring" and "contrarian" he is, and that-- wouldn't it be just like our boy!-- he was going against the grain to make a bold statement of solidarity with a mass murderer. Morrissey is a complicated man and a sophisticated pop lyricist, sure, but most of his emotions, at their core, are strikingly simple and easy to suss out. I respect your opinion and I'm sure you wouldn't be arguing your side with anything less than good faith. But don't outsmart yourself here. Sometimes with Morrissey the obvious answer is correct.
 
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I haven't been on this site long but I dont get the impression that the majority are unreasonable fanatics that dont question anything. I have seen obsession on forums and in my opinion people on here are very rational.

Morrissey is Jesus. :)
 
Not at all. No confusion. Your interpretation implies that all priests are abusers. That isn't so. A child abused by one priest would probably also be around other priests who are seen as possible sympathetic allies. In fact, it is likely one of the first people an abused child would talk to is a priest (unless all priests were perceived to be part of a corrupt system, but that's beyond the scope of the lyrics).

Really? A child abused by a priest would go to another priest for solace? More likely they would keep this inside and not tell anyone until years later, or if they did it would be (as the song mentions the do nothing authorities and administrators). If my interpretation implies are priests are abusers, it comes from the preceding lyric condemning, in Irish Industrial Schools, "...nuns cold mothers and their Christian brothers kick the shit out of very frightened children." He's painting with a broad brush no?

EDIT: The first several times listening to the track I did come away with the impression the child was turning to Morrissey because he is clearly the narrator in the first portion of the song. I'm almost there in buying into the narrative voice change mid song, but again by using "my" instead of "their" or "your" it lends itself to ambiguity (IMO).

I’m almost done ranting about this song, so Worm you’re a good sport for putting up with my rubbish!:)

True, he wrote two different songs about schools. But 'Pupils' doesn't indicate a reversal of opinion on his part, merely a different perspective on the same institution.

“He grabs and devours, kicks me in the showers, etc.” Now, with Teachers, he is at least not condemning those same educators he railed against in The Headmaster Ritual. Is it a tacit indifference? Or just telling both sides of the story? Later, he writes a song about population control through child kidnapping and murder. No, I don’t think he condones it, but what is his position on children nowadays? Besides tiny children who tell you that you smell?:)

Also, he doesn't "mock" the handicapped in 'Monster'. I have no idea where you got that idea from, although that's another song whose language is heavily steeped in irony so I suppose it may seem ambiguous. But if you want to bring that one up, it's a good example, maybe the best one actually, of how he refuses sentimentality completely. The compassion is there. He wrapped it in different words, that's all. References to "monsters" and ugliness are society's judgment against the girl, not Morrissey's.

“Sleep on and dream of love
Because it's the closest you will
Get to love”

To me that is an observation which is mocking. Hell, the title is mocking. Monster? I won’t argue this song because I’ve always felt Morrissey walked the lyrical tightrope brilliantly. He savages the handicap while leaving you with the overarching impression that he is taking society to task for their perspective. That being said, he still calls the person a Monster.

I believe songs like The Headmaster Ritual and November harkens back to an era of lyrical brilliance which was once plainly ordinary for Morrissey, but he is finding harder and harder to achieve these days. Will no one grant me his recent tracks are at the very least lyrically lazy? :confused:

And courting controversy? Yes, I guess, but writing a song even hinting-- without Swiftian or Biafran irony-- that it's no big deal to "kick the shit" out of poor underprivileged children is something else entirely.

I’m giving you the first part of the song. He clearly delineates the brutality. It’s the “my sentimental heart” forward which when I hear the song I find troubling. Would it have drastically changed the song if he had used “their sentimental hearts?” I think not. Look with a song about child abuse, shouldn’t one at the very least be overly cautious with the lyrics? Unless of course you want to cause a stir? And yes, he loves controversy: Meat is Murder, National Front Disco, come on now.;)

You really are a good sport Worm, and I love the tete a tete.
:D
 
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Aren't there three of him? :confused:

I believe their was a sighting of him in the American west, some where around Salt Lake City... That's two sightings...:)
 
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We have discussed "November Spawned A Monster" before, and I think that many people want to see his viewpoint in that song as being entirely noble, but it's really not. Sometimes I think that he perversely puts in things that make him seem unsympathetic as if to test the listener.

Anyway, where's Kewpie when we need her? :D I remember the discussion only because I felt I won an argument. :D
 
Morrissey is the artist. We can have opinions on his art.
But as the artist, he holds a complete inevitable power on the art. He can mould his art into making us feel a particular emotion, whether it be a positive or a negative.

Behold his art, but don't dismiss it - cherish your favourites and appreciate your lessers.
 
“Sleep on and dream of love
Because it's the closest you will
Get to love”

To me that is an observation which is mocking. Hell, the title is mocking. Monster? I won’t argue this song because I’ve always felt Morrissey walked the lyrical tightrope brilliantly. He savages the handicap while leaving you with the overarching impression that he is taking society to task for their perspective. That being said, he still calls the person a Monster.

I believe songs like The Headmaster Ritual and November harkens back to an era of lyrical brilliance which was once plainly ordinary for Morrissey, but he is finding harder and harder to achieve these days. Will no one grant me his recent tracks are at the very least lyrically lazy? :confused:

I have always percieved November Spawned A Monster as a complete attack on the prejudice and lazy morals of society than on the disabled child he speaks of. It is one of his most tragic and most beautiful.
 
I think in' Jack the ripper' too he plays with this idea of having sympathy with the victim but at the same time he takes on the role of the ripper himself. 'Crash into my arms' is suggestive of him personally wanting to comfort the prostitute and show her she is not beyond being loved but then he says 'I'm gonna get you' which is clearly the voice of the killer. The whole song plays with this duality of the killer and Morrissey himself.
 
Morrissey is the artist. We can have opinions on his art.
But as the artist, he holds a complete inevitable power on the art. He can mould his art into making us feel a particular emotion, whether it be a positive or a negative.

Behold his art, but don't dismiss it - cherish your favourites and appreciate your lessers.

"But as the artist, he holds a complete inevitable power on the art."

What do you mean? Can you clarify that for a simple lad like me?
 
I liked Finn's production of this track. I don't here the usual "Finn-bashing" so I'm assuming that is the general sentiment too?:confused:
 
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