Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGRATE?

[Theo]

Tim Jonze:

I wrote a piece saying that Morrissey - although liberal in many of his views - was using the language of the BNP and Enoch Powell when it came to immigration. In the piece I mentioned that his comments likening the UK to that of "going to Zagreb and hearing nothing but Irish accents" were offensive as they compared British ethnic minorities to tourists. I also said he was being overly nostalgic for a Britain built partly on empire and imperialism and that someone as well travelled as Morrissey had no excuses for such comments.

Something bugged me about the way Tom Jonze was claiming to be a liberal after he told us he was actually more offended by Morrissey's mild comments than the rest of the NME were. For one, he seems intolerant of freedom of speech. Also, one suspects by the way he attacks someone for liking British culture when it was "built partly on empire and imperialism," that he is offended by anyone who likes the country at all (a country that helped create liberal democracy) and would be sad if its culture thrown away. Others of us believe that British culture has had far more of a positive influence on the modern world than a negative and that should be admired.

Wink Wink told me last night that Tim Jonze has a MySpace.

I looked at his MySpace and I wound up at some other site he has, which includes a page he titles: "Good things on Earth." One of the first things I see is that Angela Davis - hardcore commie who liked the USSR and loves Castro's Cuba - made his very short list of the best things on Earth. Okay, whatever. Maybe he just likes things she's said about prison reform and chose to overlook this bit from the Angela Davis Wikipedia page he links to:

Russian dissident and Nobel Laureate Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn criticized Davis's sympathy for the Soviet Union in a speech he delivered to the AFL-CIO on July 9, 1975 in New York City, claiming hypocrisy in her attitude toward prisoners under Communist governments. According to Solzhenitsyn, a group of Czech dissidents “addressed an appeal to her: `Comrade Davis, you were in prison. You know how unpleasant it is to sit in prison, especially when you consider yourself innocent. You have such great authority now. Could you help our Czech prisoners? Could you stand up for those people in Czechoslovakia who are being persecuted by the state?' Angela Davis answered: 'They deserve what they get. Let them remain in prison.'”

But then I see the Venezuelan flag at the bottom of Tim Jonze's page of "Good things on Earth". Hmm, does he share my love for Venezuelan baseball players, like the greatest shortstop to ever live - Omar Vizquel? Oops, no, when you click on the flag, Tim Jonze links us to Hugo Chavez's Wikipedia entry. Oh, that's why he loves Venezuela, because a commie dictator - also a huge fan of Castro - is taking it over. On a very short list of "Good things on Earth" he has not one, but two commies, both of whom love dictator Fidel Castro. I detect a pattern. You could've probably excused having Angela Davis on there because she's actually made one or two good points in her life, but the addition of Chavez makes the picture clear. http://timjonze.googlepages.com/things

So what is "liberal" about Hugo Chavez?

No matter how insanely leftist Jonze may be, I still defend his and the NME's right to attack Morrissey for whatever political views from Morrissey they find offensive so long as they do not lie, misquote, etc. Freedom of the press. However, I now see Morrissey's manager has socked him hard and it doesn't appear Mr. Jonze will be getting up from it with his credibility intact. What a worm.

I browsed around his Guardian blog and noticed he wrote admiringly about how a pop artist named MIA "stirred things up" by singing a lyric praising the PLO ("You wanna win a war?/Like P.L.O don't surrendo"). http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/02/mias_bird_flu_the_most_prescie.html


Is admiring the PLO a "liberal" position? The PLO, an anti-semitic terrorist group that had ties to Hitler himself and participates in the mass-murder of innocent people because of their religion and ethnicity? That wasn't inflammatory of offensive to Tim Jonze. It was cool the way MIA "stirred things up" because Tim Jonze could tell she was trying to be a good lefty even if she was being stupid.

He wrote admiringly of a pop singer who is into that, but then, he works for the Guardian, a very anti-Israel (and, many Jews feel, anti-semitic) news outlet. Which is his right. But judging by his exchange with an Israeli blogger in the comments to this post - http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/05/the_latest_from_the_rock_blogs.html - you'll probably never see him write a bad word about Islam, Hizballah, or Palestinian terrorists, and no wonder he doesn't mind if London becomes Londinistan. Notice how Tim Jonze has zero sympathy for the Israeli who is worried about further Iran-sponsored Hizballah missile attacks into Israeli neighborhoods.

All my indulgances and personal obsessions aside, I'd like to attempt to make a thoughtful point. I've seen some of the commentary in the media suggesting Morrissey is a hypocrite for being the son of Irish immigrants yet making comments about other immigrants.

Morrissey wrote a song called "Irish Blood, English Heart" where he explains (IMO) that he knows what his heritage is, knows of Britain's past with regard to the Irish. But you see that he also loves and embraced England, his home. Would it be too much to ask the current waves of immigrants to England to desire to become more a part of England, to inegrate into the country in a healthier, more unifying manner? No, you don't have to forget about your blood, the culture of where you came from, your faith, your whatever from your ancestry. But what about the English heart part, if you want England to be your new home? Do you embrace the culture and want to be part of a melting pot that enrichens it? Are you trying to integrate your family into the country that generously is giving you a new home? I think it's reasonable to expect that waves of immigrants will do so, and will want to do so. But, today, many of them don't, and they are encouraged not to by multicultural dogma.

Why shouldn't a person in a Western liberal society be alarmed if sections of the cities in his country are literally becoming the Middle East rather than Middle Easterners becoming part of the city in a positive manner? Should a Westerner in a culture that believes in women's rights not be appalled to see neighborhoods where women are enslaved and abused the way they are in Middle Eastern countries? (I use the example of Middle Easterners - and of course I'm talking about Muslims, specifically - because they tend to be very hostile to integrating into their new countries due to the religious extremism rampant within their culture.)

Tim Jonze may not worry about that because he is ashamed of England and is masochistic enough to want to see it thrown away.

 

[Kewpie]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

 

[fredhenson]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

What a load of right-wing nonsense. There is no point in ridiculing your ill-thought out 'ideas' because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I can try to point out some of your factual inaccuracies:
1. The PLO was founded in 1964, how can it, therefore, have personal ties with Hitler who died in 1945?
2. Islam is not fundementally a violent religion. Saying all Muslims support Al Qaida (dont know how to spell it) is like saying all Christians support the westboro baptist church or all communists support Stalin. There are some fairly abhorrent teachings in Muslim scripture, but not more than in other religions (except for Buddhism perhaps).
3. Anti-Israel does not mean anti-semitic, there are many Jewish supporters of the Palestinian liberation movement.
4. Some of the most fascinating parts of britain are where an ethnic group have not conformed to British culture, retained their native traditions and have enriched our own culture. I would suggest you listen to Bengali in Platforms and visit Brick Lane.

 

[WinkWink]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

2. Islam is not fundementally a violent religion. Saying all Muslims support Al Qaida (dont know how to spell it) is like saying all Christians support the westboro baptist church or all communists support Stalin. There are some fairly abhorrent teachings in Muslim scripture, but not more than in other religions (except for Buddhism perhaps).

I don't think Theo said all Muslims support Al Qaida...maybe i missed it. But Islam does have some fundamental flaws, resulting in human rights violations. That shouldn't spread.

 

[fredhenson]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

I don't think Theo said all Muslims support Al Qaida...maybe i missed it. But Islam does have some fundamental flaws, resulting in human rights violations. That shouldn't spread.

he said there is religious extremism rampant in Islam, but I say no more than other religions. Christianity poses a larger threat to the worlds safety if you ask me, and it too has major flaws resulting in human rights violations e.g. child indoctrination, dismissal of science, anti-abortion and divorce etc.

By the way I am not a Muslim, nor was i raised an Atheist so my opinion is not biased

 

[2-J]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

Neither religion has inherent flaws because there is no such thing as a 'blank reading' of a text. Every text beyond a basic level of complexity must be interpreted, hence... on a basic level, no one interpretation of Islam or Christianity is any 'truer' than any other. Certain passages can always be explained as metaphorical, or to be referring to other things.

As generally interpreted in the world today though, I think it would be hard to argue (in the absence of faith) that Christianity gives rise to more abuses than Islam.

 

[9 x Fined]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

I think everyone should send the spineless weasel some hate mail.

You can start here:


http://www.myspace.com/timjonze

 

[fredhenson]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

Neither religion has inherent flaws because there is no such thing as a 'blank reading' of a text. Every text beyond a basic level of complexity must be interpreted, hence... on a basic level, no one interpretation of Islam or Christianity is any 'truer' than any other. Certain passages can always be explained as metaphorical, or to be referring to other things.

As generally interpreted in the world today though, I think it would be hard to argue (in the absence of faith) that Christianity gives rise to more abuses than Islam.

thank you for inadvertently revealing how vacuous religion is. we use our own autonomy to pick, choose and interpret teachings to suit our own opinions and give us the comfort of a life after death. That is an inherent flaw

 

[2-J]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

we use our own autonomy to pick, choose and interpret teachings to suit our own opinions

You say that as if someone approaching a text in that way should be condemned. Yet, there is no other way to approach a text. You have to make some decisions about how you are going to interpret it to derive any meaning from it at all.

I think there are decent arguments against religion, but the fact that you have to interpret any text isn't one.

 

[Danny_]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

Christmas has come early for Theo. This is all his hobby horses rolled into one.

 

[Forza Mozza]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

I had a quick look at his myspace. There's a blog about McDonalds. At a guess, i think he is trying to insert some flippant post-modern humour in the continuing feeding of the corporate evil that is Mcdonalds. Now, I'm not vegetarian either, and have eaten in McDonalds in the past, possibly far too many times for my own good. However, the crux of his blog, is how to overcome the guilt in eating such a 'delicious' treat. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Mcdonalds taste horrible. It is indeed cheap as he says, but there is a reason. It taste like crap, it is the creme de la creme of junk food. Maybe I'm missing the "taste" joke too .....




McDonalds (And How To Eat It)

A MODERN DILEMMA: I am in McDonalds. I want to buy a Big Mac. I am worried because doing such a thing is evil.

A SOLUTION TO THIS MODERN DILEMMA: Leave McDonalds without making a purchase.

A PROBLEM WITH THE SOLUTION TO THIS MODERN DILEMMA: McDonalds tastes better than any other food cooked in any other restaurant from any other city. In any other galaxy in the entire motherf***ing solar system. And it's cheap, too.

The crux of this argument is that it is literally inconceivable that I will leave the premises without securing my McDonalds. Come on, think about it. Picture yourself at the heart of the Roman Empire, lounging on a sedan chair whilst being fed grapes by a young and nubile man-slave. But hang on! Are those grapes fair trade? And is the young and nubile man-slave being paid at least the minimum wage? And I do hope these paper towels with which he is delicately towelling my arse arent' a product of the Brazilian rainforests.

Pathetic. As members of a privileged Western economy, it's our right - no, our duty - to consume with an unrivalled zest.

Now, I honestly don't mind the fact that McDonalds burgers are nothing more than mangled brains in a bap. It bothers me not one jot that the flavours are concocted in a fragrance factory out in a grim New Jersey warehouse. It could be scraped off the hard shoulder of the M69 for all I care, as long as it came with a gherkin and made my taste buds dance in the way that it does.

As for the workers being exploited by the trade? Well, I think that if they knew how happy they were making me they'd probably turn up for work early.

Ok, ok so I'm not totally irresponsible. I know that McDonalds is kind of bad, especially for all the Mexican immigrants who have their arms severed in dangerous machinery but can't get it fixed because they've no health benefits.

But you should not fear this Modern Dilemma. Because obviously there is a solution. And obviously, I am the person to provide it.

On the counter of every branch of McDonalds is a charity box. It says something like Save The Orphans or Fund For One-Armed Iraqi Babies. What it should say is this: Makes My Soul Feel Better About The Crime I Am About To Commit. Because that's exactly what it does.

Picture the scene. McDonalds sells approximately 1,737,263,684,336 burgers a day (at a guess). That means if everyone does as I say, and puts in 20 pence for every burger into the box, charity will make £347,452,736,867.20 a day! Converted into dollars thats $658,353,677,476.75! Converted into Albanian Leke, thats 62,681,853,639,846.98 ALL. Converted into bars of Cadbury's Chomp, thats 3,474,527,368,672 bars! Converted into New River Special breakfasts at New River Café on Stoke Newington's fashionable Church Street, that's 105,288,708,141.58 New River Special Breakfasts! A day!

Think of all the smiling babies with new artificial limbs! There will be no more cancer! No more heart disease! No more records by Boy Kill Boy! And why? Because your money will be put towards curing them or putting them down or something that gets rid of the problem.

It's a simple trade off. 58 babies saved for every one potato farmer in Oregon going bankrupt. That's got to be fair, no? I mean Hang on, what's that you say? I'm just encouraging people to eat even more burgers from the hideous global slaughterhouse that is the golden arches? I'm giving self-satisfied c***s an easy and inexpensive excuse to rid themselves of middle class guilt and self-loathing? Well, you know what? I'm enjoying this Big Mac so much I can't even even you.

 

[Theo]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

2. Islam is not fundementally a violent religion. Saying all Muslims support Al Qaida (dont know how to spell it) is like saying all Christians support the westboro baptist church or all communists support Stalin. There are some fairly abhorrent teachings in Muslim scripture, but not more than in other religions (except for Buddhism perhaps).

I didn't say "all Muslims support Al Qaida," dumb ass.

What I said was that the rampant religious extremism in Muslim culture makes many Muslim immigrants hostile to integration when they move to the West. Are you seriously denying this?

3. Anti-Israel does not mean anti-semitic, there are many Jewish supporters of the Palestinian liberation movement.

Which is why my post took the care to differentiate the two, dumb ass. Though you'd have to be playing stupid if you don't believe that many anti-semites claim they are merely anti-Israel or anti-Zionist in order to mask their true agenda, which makes it harder to know where a person is truly coming from.

4. Some of the most fascinating parts of britain are where an ethnic group have not conformed to British culture, retained their native traditions and have enriched our own culture. I would suggest you listen to Bengali in Platforms and visit Brick Lane.

I stated immigrants need not forget about their traditions, cultures, etc., and that this enrichens the culture of their new home. This is why I used the word "integrate" rather than "assimiliate."

Explain to me why there was that captain hook wacko imam running around London recruiting terrorists from the ranks of Muslim immigrant families.

I've never been to Brick Lane. I've only heard of it because Muslims made a stink over the filming of Monica Ali's novel Brick Lane. Here's what Salman Rushdie had to say:

It’s now being called “the Battle of Brick Lane” — the mostly Bangladeshi residents of London’s Brick Lane district have used what some would call protests and others, including Dibs!, would call threats to keep a film version of Monica Ali’s novel Brick Lane from being shot in their neighborhood. The Guardian reports that veteran feminist author Germaine Greer supports the “Brick Lane activists” and that fellow author Salman Rushdie, who spent years in hiding after being saddled with a fatwa, has lashed out against Greer. Rushdie wrote a letter, published in the Guardian today, which calls Greer’s stance “philistine, sanctimonious, and disgraceful, but it is not unexpected. As I well remember, she has done this before. At the height of the assault against my novel The Satanic Verses, Germaine Greer stated, ‘I refuse to sign petitions for that book of his, which was about his own troubles.’ She went on to describe me as ‘a megalomaniac, an Englishman with dark skin.’ Now it’s Monica Ali’s turn to be deracinated by Germaine.” Ouch! And ouch back atcha, as back to the Dark Ages we go. The Guardian continues: “Last night community activists in Brick Lane confirmed a rally would go ahead tomorrow and, in an echo of the burnings of The Satanic Verses nearly 20 years ago, they would burn Ali’s book.” Ahhhh, nothing sez “civilization” like book-burnings.

Well, here's the full text of Rushdie's letter:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,1832750,00.html

Germaine Greer's article (G2, July 24) about the proposed filming of Monica Ali's novel Brick Lane is a strange mixture of ignorance (she actually believes that this is the first novel to portray London's Bangladeshi community, and doesn't know that many Brick Lane Asians are in favour of the filming); pro-censorship twaddle (no, people do not have the "moral right" to prevent the making of a film simply because they have decided in advance that they will not like it); and ad-feminam sneers about Monica Ali. Her support of the attack on this film project is philistine, sanctimonious and disgraceful, but it is not unexpected. As I well remember, she has done this before.

At the height of the assault against my novel The Satanic Verses, Germaine Greer stated: "I refuse to sign petitions for that book of his, which was about his own troubles." She went on to describe me as "a megalomaniac, an Englishman with dark skin". Now it's Monica Ali's turn to be deracinated: "She writes in English and her point of view is, whether she allows herself to impersonate a village Bangladeshi woman or not, British." There is a kind of double racism in this argument. To suit Greer, the British-Bangladeshi Ali is denied her heritage and belittled for her Britishness, while her British-Bangladeshi critics are denied that same Britishness, which most of them would certainly insist was theirs by right. "Writers are treacherous," Greer says, and she should know.
Salman Rushdie
London

So, Monica Ali was attacked for being too British.


Here's part of the attack:http://arts.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1827524,00.html

When Monica Ali set out to write Brick Lane, she was - according to Harriet Lane, who interviewed her for the Observer on the eve of the novel's publication in June 2003 - "already very conscious that she was on the far side of two cultures". In fact, Ali is on the near side of British culture, not far from the middle. She writes in English and her point of view is, whether she allows herself to impersonate a village Bangladeshi woman or not, British. She has forgotten her Bengali, which she would not have done if she had wanted to remember it.

So, her book should be burned because she is an immigrant who embraced Britain too much?

Looks like some interesting tensions are going on in Brick Lane, indeed.

 

[Theo]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

1. The PLO was founded in 1964, how can it, therefore, have personal ties with Hitler who died in 1945?

Because Arafat - the Chairman of the PLO - referred to Nazi warm criminal Haj Amin al-Husseini as "our hero" and to himself as "one of his troops."

Here's some history from Professor Alan Dershowitz:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/ahmadinejad-holocausts-m_b_66630.html

In his speeches, most especially the one at Columbia University, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad repeats two myths about the Holocaust. The first every reasonable person knows is a total lie: namely that the Holocaust did not occur. The second myth, however, is one that escapes critical attention for the most part, because many people are not aware of its falsity. The myth is that the Palestinian people and their leadership had absolutely nothing to do with the Holocaust. The conclusion that is supposed to follow from this "fact" is that the establishment of Israel in the wake of the Nazi genocide of the Jewish people was unfair to the Palestinians. This is the way Ahmadinejad put it in his Columbia talk:

"...[G]iven this historical event [the Holocaust], if it is a reality, we need to question whether the Palestinian people should be paying for it... The Palestinian people didn't commit any crime. They had no role to play in World War II."

These statements about the role of the Palestinians are demonstrably false. The truth is that the Palestinian leadership, supported by the Palestinian masses, played a significant role in Hitler's Holocaust. The Palestinian leader at the time was Hajj Amin Al-Husseini, the Grand Mufit of Jerusalem. As Professor Edward Said has acknowledged:

"Hajj Amin al-Husseini represented the Palestinian Arab national consensus, had the backing of the Palestinian political parties that functioned in Palestine, and was recognized in some form by Arab governments as the voice of the Palestinian people."

Husseini was "Palestine's national leader" and it was in that capacity that he made his notorious alliance with Hitler and played an active role in promoting the Holocaust. Here is the true story that Ahmadinejad tried to mythologize.

Shortly after Hitler came to power, the Grand Mufti decided to emulate him. He informed the German consul in Jerusalem that "the Muslims inside and outside Palestine welcome the new regime of Germany and hope for the extension of the fascist anti-democratic, governmental system to other countries." In an effort to bring it to his own country, Husseini organized the "Nazi Scouts," based on the "Hitler Youth." The swastika became a welcome symbol among many Palestinians.

The mid to late 1930's were marked by Arab efforts to curtail immigration and Jewish efforts to rescue as many Jews as possible from Hitler's Europe. These years were also marked by escalating Muslim violence orchestrated by Husseini and other Muslim leaders. In 1936, Arab terrorism took on a new dimension. In the beginning the targets were once again defenseless Jewish civilians in hospitals, movie theatres, homes and stores. This was followed by strikes and shop closures, and then by the bombing of British offices. The Nazi regime in Germany and the Italian fascists supported the violence, sending "millions" to the Mufti. The SS, under the leadership of Heinrich Himmler, provided both financial and logistical support for anti-Semitic pogroms in Palestine. Adolf Eichmann visited Husseini in Palestine and subsequently maintained regular contact with him. The support was mutual, as one Arab commentator put it:

"Feeling the whip of Jewish pressure and influence, the Arabs sympathize[d] with the Nazis and Fascists in their agony and trials at the hands of Jewish intrigues and international financial pressure."

The Palestinians and their Arab allies were anything but neutral about the fate of European Jewry. The official leader of the Palestinians, Haj Amin al-Husseini, spent the war years in Berlin with Hitler, serving as a consultant on the Jewish question. Husseini famously posed with Hitler for a photograph that was proudly displayed in the homes of many Palestinians. He was taken on a tour of Auschwitz by Himmler and expressed support for the mass murder of European Jews. He also sought to "solve the problems of the Jewish element in Palestine and other Arab countries" by employing "the same method" being used "in the Axis countries." He would not be satisfied with the Jewish residents of Palestine - - many of whom were descendants of Sephardic Jews who had lived there for hundreds, even thousands, of years - - remaining as a minority in a Muslim state. Like Hitler, he wanted to be rid of "every last Jew." As Husseini wrote in his memoirs:

"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours.'"

The Mufti was apparently planning to return to Palestine in the event of a German victory and to construct a death camp, modeled after Auschwitz, near Nablus. Husseini incited his pro-Nazi followers with the words "Arise, o sons of Arabia. Fight for your sacred rights. Slaughter Jews wherever you find them. Their spilled blood pleases Allah, our history and religion. That will save our honor." In 1944, a German-Arab commando unit, under Husseini's command, parachuted into Palestine and poisoned Tel Aviv's wells.

Husseini also helped to inspire a pro-Nazi coup in Iraq and helped to organize thousands of Muslims in the Balkans into military units known as Handselar divisions which carried out atrocities against Yugoslav Jews, Serbs and Gypsies. After a meeting with Hitler, he recorded the following in his diary:

The Mufti: "The Arabs were Germany's natural friends... They were therefore prepared to cooperate with Germany with all their hearts and stood ready to participate in a war, not only negatively by the commission of acts of sabotage and the instigation of revolutions, but also positively by the formation of an Arab Legion. In this struggle, the Arabs were striving for the independence and the unity of Palestine, Syria and Iraq....

Hitler: "Germany was resolved, step by step, to ask one European nation after the other to solve its Jewish problem, and at the proper time direct a similar appeal to non-European nations as well. Hitler. Germany's objective would then be solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere under the protection of British power. The moment that Germany's tank divisions and air squadrons had made their appearance south of the Caucasus, the public appeal requested by the Grand Mufti could go out to the Arab world."

It is fair to conclude that the official leader of the Muslims in Palestine, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was a full fledged Nazi war criminal and he was so declared at Nuremberg and sought by Yugoslavia as a war criminal after the war. He escaped to Egypt where he was given asylum and helped to organize many former Nazis and Nazi sympathizers against Israel.

It is also fair to say that Husseini's pro-Nazi sympathies and support were widespread among his Palestinian followers, who regarded him as a hero even after the war and the disclosure of his role in Nazi atrocities. According to his biographer,

Haj Amin's popularity among the Palestinian Arabs and within the Arab states actually increased more than ever during his period with the Nazis... [because] large parts of the Arab world shared this sympathy with Nazi Germany during the Second World War.

Nor was it merely a hatred of Zionism that animated this support for Nazi ideology. The grand mufti's "hatred of Jews...was fathomless, and he gave full vent to it during his period of activity alongside the Nazis (October 1941-May 1945)." His speeches on Berlin Radio were anti-Semitic to the core: "Kill the Jews wherever you find them--this pleases God, history and religion." In 1948, the National Palestinian Council elected Husseini as its president, even though he was still a wanted war criminal living in exile in Egypt. Indeed, Husseini is still revered today among many Palestinians as a national hero. Yasser Arafat, in an interview conducted in 2002 and reprinted in the Palestinian daily Al-Quds on August 2, 2002, the chairman calls Haj Amin al-Husseini "our hero," referring to the Palestinian people. Arafat also boasted of being "one of his troops," even though he knew he was "considered an ally of Nazis." (If a German today were to call Hitler "our hero," he would appropriately be labeled a neo-Nazi!)

Therefore it is a myth -- another myth perpetrated by Iran's myth-maker-in-chief -- that the Palestinians played "no role" in the Holocaust. Considering the active support by the Palestinian leadership and masses for the losing side of a genocidal war, it was more than fair for the United Nations to offer them a state of their own on more than half of the arable land of the British mandate. The Sudeten Germans got a lot less!

Why do you whitewash this yet claim to want to educate me???

 

[karelMoz]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

Is Tim Jonze a liberal?

Well I am not sure about that but one thing is sure - he writes like a twat and looks like a total wanker:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/artsblog/authorpics/tim_jonze.jpg

I still cannot believe he post his image in front of the Salford Lads Club! what an arse!

I do hope that Moz will sue the shit out of him and that piece of crap so called music paper - NME!

 

[suparni]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

2. Islam is not fundementally a violent religion. Saying all Muslims support Al Qaida (dont know how to spell it) is like saying all Christians support the westboro baptist church or all communists support Stalin. There are some fairly abhorrent teachings in Muslim scripture, but not more than in other religions (except for Buddhism perhaps).

Excuse me... I beg to differ, perhaps the only offspin of that religion that I would say that might be true of is Sufi's and they are basically rejected as nuts by Islam... they sing, dance and drink.

I too was raised atheist so I can claim the same non bias as you do. I also studied Eastern philosophy and religion pretty thoroughly.
I lived in India for several years where I practiced meditation and studied both in (non)action and education in the form of reading and listening.

The texts I covered extensively include but are not limited to:
The Teachings of The Buddha (in full) - particularly love Dhammapada, The Diamond Sutra and the Sutra of Hui Neng (starting point of Zen), Teachings of Chaung Tzu
Tao Te Ching (Lao Tzu)
Bhagavad-Gita (Krishna)
some vedas
certain Upanishads
New Testament
In Search of the Miraculous (Ospensky on Gurdjieff)
All work I could find in English by the following Zen Masters:
Rinzai
Hyakujo
Dogen
Isan
Nansen
Joshu
Kyozan
Yakusan
Basho

I also learned a bit about Nanak (Sikh), Saraha (Tantra), many many paths... and I spent time in various parts of India - I had a look into predominately Muslim influence, as well as Hindu, Buddhist, and Sikh - I was in Bangladesh (Muslim), Thailand (Buddhist,) Nepal (Buddhist,) and I have been around the Jaina's and learned quite a bit about Mahavira as well - I devoted a good 7 years of my life to the full time investigation of the worlds religions and mediation techniques.

I also read Koran. Have you read Koran? Do you know that ISLAM was written on Mohammed's sword? Islam means PEACE and it was on his sword. Some say that the sword is meant to symbolize mediation and introspection and that it is to be turned upon oneself to cut through the ego - much like Zen uses the Koan... while this seems like the only non violent explanation of the very fundamental imagery at the core of Islam - this explanation is not supported within the texts. I investigated it thoroughly and I would be very open to your pointing it out to me if you can. I have read all of the above text throughly and I can discuss them without having to refer to any texts so please feel free to reference them and explain what you are saying. I admit that sometimes I get confused about which Zen master said what, but I consider that one school so I suppose that will not be an issue.

At the very core of Islamic symbolism is the sword of Mohamed who was said to enter heaven on horseback... the very image supports dying in battle.

Do you know the story of Mohamed at all? Anything about his marriage, his life? his message?

Have you read the Gita? There is also war imagery used in that text. Do you see how it is used as symbolism to show the law of Karma? Can you please explain to me how Jihad compares with Gita... because I understand very well that Gita is not about going to war... Koran and Jihad I do not understand apparently. enlighten me if you can I am open and have tried to figure it out.

Of course it may have been extra difficult for me to be open after reading Koran for a while...
I might have become "closed minded" too quickly... when I read about violence on a domestic level perhaps... "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them."

So please tell me then - how Buddha, Lao Tzu, Jesus, Nanak, Rumi, even Krishna, Kabir, Chaung Tzu, Leih Tzu, Bodhidharma, Basho, Gorakh, Saraha, Shankara, Daya, Mahavira and anybody else you can think of brings a message as violent or anywhere near as violent to Mohammad and Koran.

I am not saying you are wrong. I just have been wondering about this and it seems I have found somebody who knows... what with your being so unbiased and all.

Perhaps Rabi'a al-'Adawiyya from Iraq (8th century) the great mystic poet is the best voice (that I have heard) of the Muslim world... and her entire Koran was edited with a black marker... yet she was a great seer and mystic poet and is a great influence both on and of the Muslim world... to and of the Sufi's in particular - I feel that Islam rejects their greatest peaks of wisdom and religiousness in rejecting the Sufi's - The Sufi's are the peak of the Muslim insight and if only more of the Muslim world would learn more about and be influenced by great poets like Rabi'a al-'Adawiyya. Despite all of the disrespect to women I have noticed that many Muslim poets and saints are women... please do not get me started on the Christian world and all its faults in my view. I am contesting your assertion that Islam is not violent at it's core considering the percentage of text in Koran that - in my view - is directly and violently aggressive.

btw... I am not saying that all Muslims are violent. I know a few and I do not judge people on their religion, I am no religion - I feel there is a difference between religion and religiousness and I also think that religion binds and divides humanity whereas religiousness is a such a personal matter that it cannot be symbolized on a flag or in outer expression except perhaps through poetry and art that transcends the confines of labels and outer representation. I do not even believe that religion as we know it should exist... I am simply wondering what you are talking about within that structure... a structure I regard as limiting and even childish... I do not mean to offend anybody - that is my feeling for me, in my experience so far.

 

[Dave]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

How does he feel about Patty Hearst?

 

[Augustus]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

he said there is religious extremism rampant in Islam, but I say no more than other religions. Christianity poses a larger threat to the worlds safety if you ask me, and it too has major flaws resulting in human rights violations e.g. child indoctrination, dismissal of science, anti-abortion and divorce etc.

By the way I am not a Muslim, nor was i raised an Atheist so my opinion is not biased

What an utterly ludicrous assertion and straight out of the far left idiot's handbook. Being against divorce is a threat to the world on a par with radicalised Islam? Are you serious? Thinking that in an ideal world families should stay together is wrong? Creationism (as ludicrous as it may seem to many, me included) is as dangerous as a psychopath with a large knife bearing down on you with his mind set on making your hat collection redundant? Really? The Archbishop of Canterbury is as dangerous as Osama Bin Laden? You should be on medication assuming you're not already. Must be a beard thing. I think you've just shown yourself up for the whole world to see. How embarrassing.

Public enemy number one. "Have you seen this man?"


There is a very, very small group using Islam to push forward what is essentially a totalitarian ideal whose core tenet is follow Islam or die. That kind of limited choice was quite big in 30s Germany if you recall, and without wishing to muddy the waters unnecessarily, you can thank colonialism for defeating the Nazis because without the Empire Britain would not have lasted long enough for the allies to use the UK as the starting off point for the liberation of Europe. Ouch. "Colonialism in saves world shock." That's gotta hurt.

The way the far left have jumped into bed with radical Islam is absolutely fascinating, not least because it'll end with radical Islam turning on them. Let's hope we are alive to see that day dawn, eh?

So why do the extreme left ally themselves with radical Islam? At its core is a loathing of the USA and its allies and that is for a very simple reason they often do not wish to touch upon. They talk of the evils of US post war foreign policy, Korea, Vietnam, Chile, Iraq, Afghanistan, wherever, and of how the US "made" Bin Laden and are now reaping the whirlwind. They don't like to ask "why" the US supported Bin Laden and others across the globe. It was to stop the march of the ideology that leaves even the Nazis in its wake in the deaths column. Communism.

The extreme left hate America because America defeated Communism. Pure and simple. They would prefer it if vast swathes of the world were a bizarre Stalinist theme park like North Korea. They would love an eight hour tirade on the only TV and radio station allowed as Chavez likes to do in Venezuela. "You are free to do as we tell you". They would like you to believe that cuddly old Rowan Williams is the real evil in the world and Bin Laden is in fact a saint. They are insane, blind and intellectually bankrupt playing sixth form politics in the comfort of their bedrooms using their mum's broadband connection. They espouse an ideology that has killed 100 million people and has been rejected by the peoples of scores of nations across the globe, but, wow, that enamel red star looks so cool on my bag... The hammer & sickle is interchangeable with the swastika on pretty much every level. I know a Lithuanian woman, just 29, whose father was sent to a Siberian gulag by Stalin (not personally) aged 9. I wonder if the concentration camp has a nicer ambiance if you are sent by communists rather than Nazis? Perhaps the gruel has more grease in it and the bread less weevils.

The small group of fascists using Islam as a front for their insanity will eat the extreme left alive. It really can't come quick enough and I pray to God I'm around to see it. The far left are despicable posing flaneurs playing big boys politics in the comfort of their own self satisfaction. That includes you too, Jonzzzzzzzze.

 

[Dave]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

More shocking than that Tim Jonze picture, I found this!

 

[I am a Ghost]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

Tim Jonze:
Quote:
I wrote a piece saying that Morrissey - although liberal in many of his views - was using the language of the BNP and Enoch Powell when it came to immigration. In the piece I mentioned that his comments likening the UK to that of "going to Zagreb and hearing nothing but Irish accents" were offensive as they compared British ethnic minorities to tourists. I also said he was being overly nostalgic for a Britain built partly on empire and imperialism and that someone as well travelled as Morrissey had no excuses for such comments.


The quote in NME is "Dublin" accents, not "Irish". On the basis of this it is emphatically NOT comparing British Ethnic Minorities to tourists...and Morrissey knows his history. As quoted by so many, he is the son of immigrants and will choose his words very carefully. It's very easy for a journo or desperate rag such as the NME to throw in Powell and the BNP and anybody else to bolster their pitiful case.
Immigration changes every country.. I live in Ireland. My country is not what it was ten or fifteen years ago. I love my country. Immigrants have enriched it in many respects . But it is not the world I grew up in. Bald fact...

 

[Mozzer's Left Eyebrow]

Re: Is Tim Jonze a liberal, as he claims? + shouldn't immigrants be expected 2 INTEGR

More shocking than that Tim Jonze picture, I found this!

Now that is truly funny.