Is it about......

[virtually dead]

and a prophetic dream sequence involving a tiny mop-headed elf who would one day befriend him, fall in love with him, and break his heart by suddenly returning to his magic cave.
.

Is this really true, or just some more Rogan spouted shite?
If it's true... then can anyone else see a likeness to johnny?

 

[Danny]

I'm surprised there's this much debate. A lot's been written about this song. A Google search will reveal a number of high-profile interpretations of this song. I've cut and pasted a few.

Johnny Rogan describes it from a biographical standpoint:

"I Just Want To See The Boy Happy" would emerge on his 2006 album Ringleader Of The Tormentors. The seventeen year old Morrissey had come home from school one evening and watched the film "The Boy In The Plastic Bubble". Moved by the film's heart-rending tale of a terminally ill boy, played with melting pathos by John Travolta, Morrissey spent 11 hours in the bathtub composing song lyrics, a fact corroborated by a neighbor, Mrs. Potts-Sacker, who told me she noticed the Morrissey's bathroom light on one evening in 1976. Those song lyrics would eventually become the Ringleader track, although in the intervening years Morrissey would omit several of the original lines, including musings about flying saucers, Colonel Tom Parker, malodorous Congolese, and a prophetic dream sequence involving a tiny mop-headed elf who would one day befriend him, fall in love with him, and break his heart by suddenly returning to his magic cave. The supernatural element in Morrissey's lyrics is a book I will one day write."​

And this from Rolling Stone magazine:

"Ringleader Of The Tormentors features a number of melancholy, eccentric songs from the melancholy, eccentric British singer, Morrissey. The melancholy, eccentric "The Youngest Was The Most Loved" sounds British and mopey, like his ex-band The Smiths. But there are signs of growth, too. "Dear God, Please Help Me" finds melancholy Morrissey eccentrically moping in Rome instead of Britain. Meanwhile, the melancholy "You Have Killed Me" mentions the filmmakers the ex-Smiths singer enjoys watching while moping, often in Britain. Finally, "I Just Want To See The Boy Happy" is a moping eccentric gay British anthem for melancholy students, British people, and ex-Smiths singers. 2 1/2 Stars."​

Chuck Klosterman was more enthusiastic in Spin:

The penultimate track on the album, "I Just Want To See The Boy Happy", features a man who is about to die telling God his final wish. That wish? To see the boy happy. Inherent in this is a deeper question about life. We often ask ourselves, "What does it mean to die?" We rarely ask ourselves, "What does it mean to live?" Living means you are probably not dead, and could also be asking yourself questions. But living could also mean that you are not undead and/or not unborn, two significant categories of active human agency revealed to us by George Romero and "Scanners". I am in my thirties, which means I have been alive for not more than 14,600 days. As I write this, I am sitting on a mechanical bull in a Kansas City club. None of the pseudo-cowboys tossing beers at me has asked themselves "What does it mean to live?" They probably don't even own a Billy Joel album. And it is precisely this ignorance which deftly informs Morrissey's "I Just Want To See The Boy Happy". We don't need to ask these questions. Like a jet-setting gay Alex Trebek, Morrissey has answered it for us.​

Finally, Armond White in Slate:

"I Just Want To See The Boy Happy" is Morrissey in fine form again, the protean verve of his pen creating a chiarascuro effect-- in music-- articulating the Marxist dialectic of late capitalism and pickled herring. Here is Morrissey in all his unsettling power. Ever the provacteur, Morrissey forces a revision of our expectations-- who is this boy, and why his first love? In the Irish Rebellion of 1798, many Irishmen died hoping lives for their sons would be better. Similarly, Morrissey thrusts a fist in the face of his smug English overlords and demands happiness. That such an appeal-- to a Lord, presumably Lord Edward FitzGerald (notice that all the letters in the words "Edward" appear in a cryptic order throughout the song's lyrics)-- must go unfulfilled only adds to the poignancy of Morrissey's courageous howl for justice.​

Case closed, I think.

Very very good.

Have you got a lot of time on your hands at the moment?

 

[Worm]

HOW TO WRITE A MORRISSEY REVIEW FOR THE ROLLING STONE MAGAZINE

Recently, at an airport, I picked up an open copy of Rolling Stone lying on a chair, without knowing what the title of the magazine was. I leafed through a few pages and suddenly stopped in surprise. "Holy shit", I said to myself. "Since when did US Magazine start publishing P. J. O'Rourke?"

 

[Worm]

Have you got a lot of time on your hands at the moment?

The cat's away, the mice are playing.

 

[Inttenssity]

^Does the cat represent "the boss", "the significant other", or other?

 

[Worm]

"My boss"? "My signficant other"? These days, I ask myself, what's the bloody difference?

[If I had a beer mug in front of me, this is where I'd mutter an obscene oath and take a long gulp of lager.]

 

[Inttenssity]

LOL - good thing you have this outlet when the lager-filled mug is otherwise unavailable!

 

[chica]

How did this conversation get from "there's a line in I Like You that goes 'you're not right in the head, nor am I" to "this must be about a homosexual relationship, Morrissey is criticizing people for thinking that homosexuality is mental illness" to "Morrissey is a good Catholic boy with homophobic beliefs such as that homosexuality is a mental illness"?!

When hdid Morrissey ever express any homophobic ideas or attitudes?? Please provide an example. As far as I can see, it's always been the opposite. He is one of the least homophobic people in the world that I can think of.

By "repeating" I didn't mean he believed in it, but I also don't think his intention was to fight for gay rights or anything of that kind. He simply stated a fact, that some people react to homosexuality that way. In case that was the meaning of the line, which could or could not be the right interpretation.

 

[lilikoi]

In this TV interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGJJBUbZB4M

thanx for the link but my stoneage connection is too slow for youtube. but, if that´s what the song is about: selfpitying, selfabsorbed whining is what comes to my mind. sniff :-(

 

[Worm]

thanx for the link but my stoneage connection is too slow for youtube. but, if that´s what the song is about: selfpitying, selfabsorbed whining is what comes to my mind. sniff :-(

Don't worry. "The Boy With The Thorn In His Side" is not about the record industry. Morrissey might have had that in mind when he wrote it, but there is absolutely nothing in the song itself unequivocally about The Smiths' trials in the music industry. It can be read as such, but it can be read more basically as a song about frustrated yearning. "They" in the song can easily be thought of as record companies, the BBC, or other gatekeepers of the pop world who kept The Smiths out of the club, but "they" is more likely a general term suggesting the typical "us versus the world"/"gang" mentality that many Smiths songs put forth.

And I don't think Morrissey or any of the other group members ever felt "a murderous desire for love" and acceptance among the music industry. Their concern was always to reach the fans directly, and their complaints about the business only came from the hurdles they faced in reaching as many fans as possible. Put another way, I don't think Morrissey gave a toss about Geoff Travis, but he desperately wanted Geoff Travis to do more to get Smiths records into the hands of the audience.

I don't question Morrissey's intentions when he wrote the song, but it's also well-known that for a long time Morrissey wrote lyrics that consciously avoided certain details in order to speak to people about their lives, to paraphrase "Panic", and not merely to sing about his own. The emotions behind the song might have arisen from his frustrations with the music industry, but as he so often did (once upon a time) he translated those emotions to a much wider range of people. The song can be taken as painfully, tenderly autobiographical, but on the other hand everyone I know relates to that song and finds it very touching. The same applies to "You Just Haven't Earned It Yet Baby" or "Frankly, Mr. Shankly", both songs said to be about Geoff Travis, albeit obliquely in the latter case.

Compare those to "Speedway", which is about persecution, betrayal and (finally) perverse loyalty. Listening to that song I can just about relate to the lyrics until the last bit about "written lies". Immediately the song's horizons narrow. It's about Morrissey, it's about the music industry, it's about journalists who lie, it's about his stubborn loyalty to some Judas or other (there are so many, it's hard to keep track). Great song, but disappointing in its smaller purview. You can see one of the most striking differences between Morrissey's writing in The Smiths and his solo career right there.

 

[lilikoi]

Don't worry. "The Boy With The Thorn In His Side" is not about the record industry. Morrissey might have had that in mind when he wrote it, but there is absolutely nothing in the song itself unequivocally about The Smiths' trials in the music industry. It can be read as such, but it can be read more basically as a song about frustrated yearning. "They" in the song can easily be thought of as record companies, the BBC, or other gatekeepers of the pop world who kept The Smiths out of the club, but "they" is more likely a general term suggesting the typical "us versus the world"/"gang" mentality that many Smiths songs put forth.

And I don't think Morrissey or any of the other group members ever felt "a murderous desire for love" and acceptance among the music industry. Their concern was always to reach the fans directly, and their complaints about the business only came from the hurdles they faced in reaching as many fans as possible. Put another way, I don't think Morrissey gave a toss about Geoff Travis, but he desperately wanted Geoff Travis to do more to get Smiths records into the hands of the audience.

I don't question Morrissey's intentions when he wrote the song, but it's also well-known that for a long time Morrissey wrote lyrics that consciously avoided certain details in order to speak to people about their lives, to paraphrase "Panic", and not merely to sing about his own. The emotions behind the song might have arisen from his frustrations with the music industry, but as he so often did (once upon a time) he translated those emotions to a much wider range of people. The song can be taken as painfully, tenderly autobiographical, but on the other hand everyone I know relates to that song and finds it very touching. The same applies to "You Just Haven't Earned It Yet Baby" or "Frankly, Mr. Shankly", both songs said to be about Geoff Travis, albeit obliquely in the latter case.

Compare those to "Speedway", which is about persecution, betrayal and (finally) perverse loyalty. Listening to that song I can just about relate to the lyrics until the last bit about "written lies". Immediately the song's horizons narrow. It's about Morrissey, it's about the music industry, it's about journalists who lie, it's about his stubborn loyalty to some Judas or other (there are so many, it's hard to keep track). Great song, but disappointing in its smaller purview. You can see one of the most striking differences between Morrissey's writing in The Smiths and his solo career right there.

mhhh, well he said in so many interviews that pop music doesn´t reflect society and that´s what´s so fundamentally wrong with it. so with that in mind i did interpret social critical meanings into his lyrics, i looked for them and thought i had found them. and now i hear that so many songs are actually about the smiths and their frustrations in the business. weird. how does this now´reflect society´ and make pop music so fundamentally important? confused!

 

[Worm]

now i hear that so many songs are actually about the smiths and their frustrations in the business.

But that's what I'm saying-- Morrissey might give various explanations for why he wrote those songs, but ultimately it's what you hear on the records that counts. Morrissey's experiences might have been unique to him, but he transformed them into pop songs that are universal. None of these revelations should contradict your original interpretations.

 

[lilikoi]

But that's what I'm saying-- Morrissey might give various explanations for why he wrote those songs, but ultimately it's what you hear on the records that counts. Morrissey's experiences might have been unique to him, but he transformed them into pop songs that are universal. None of these revelations should contradict your original interpretations.

it´s interesting that he says he doesn´t write anything complicated and ´esoteric´ but just clear simple things - and then nobody actually understands diddly squat about these ´simple clear messages´. and everybody interprets something else into it. well, at least meat is murder is pretty clear, hopefully - and i won´t say it´s a gay topic either, lol.

 

[Danny]

I think it's fine to find your own meanings in the songs, but you can do that while also acknowledging and accepting Morrissey's original motivation for writing them.

There's no doubt in my mind that Boy with a Thorn is about Morrissey's struggle for acceptance from critics and music industry bods. But that doesn't mean that other interpretations aren't valid as long as we accept that they are "ours" and don't try and project them onto Morrissey. It's the emotion that's important, and to Morrissey, his emotion at being doubted by music critics could be just as strong as someone elses emotion at being doubted by an individual. We all have different priorities and motivations.

 

[Worm]

You've summed it up nicely, Danny.

To that I would add a final thought, one I've often had over the years: in my opinion Morrissey's identity was so successfully subsumed within the group dynamic of The Smiths that (as with "The Boy With The Thorn In His Side") the lyrics and overall presentation of the songs were such that anyone could identify with the songs regardless of their true source. The Smiths were a very strong projection of Morrissey's personality yet at the same time, within the larger dynamic, so universal as to make Morrissey almost irrelevant.

I know some here disagree with that. And maybe I'm too strongly influenced by the fact that I had owned and fallen in love with "The Queen Is Dead" with no knowledge of who Morrissey was (it was about four months before I even noticed on the cassette cover that the "Voice" only went by his surname, and there wasn't even the Salford Lads photo). Maybe I'm projecting. In any case I don't say this to diminish Morrissey's contributions, to say he doesn't matter. I'm actually praising him; I think his achievements were incredible. Speaking of their aura, of what they meant conceptually (as opposed to praising them as great musicians), The Smiths were unlike anything before or since and that's almost entirely thanks to Morrissey's scrupulous attention in putting the words, sounds, and images above the individual personalities, his included.

 

[Danny]

Yes, I think you're right about that Worm. And I think that explains why he was so devastated when they split. Because for a very shy man it was the perfect scenario. To use the protection of the anonymous Smiths aesthetic probably allowed him to be much more courageous as an artist than he would have been alone.

It must have felt very daunting to have to restart your career as "Morrissey" without that security blanket.

 

[nightandday]

Yes, I think you're right about that Worm. And I think that explains why he was so devastated when they split. Because for a very shy man it was the perfect scenario. To use the protection of the anonymous Smiths aesthetic probably allowed him to be much more courageous as an artist than he would have been alone.

It must have felt very daunting to have to restart your career as "Morrissey" without that security blanket.

I think Worm and Danny have summed it all up... and who would think that this thread would develop into such a great discussion...considering what it was originally about?

The irony of it all, however, was that the anonymous Smiths aesthetic did not actually provide protection - from the start, the media and the fans paid most, if not nearly all of the attention to Morrissey himself. Whether he liked it or not, his persona soon proved too powerful and 'consummed' the other members - as far as the public goes, their identities were lost and Morrissey public persona became The Smiths image, even though Morrissey would point out in interviews that other members of the band had different lifestyles. For instance, Mike Joyce says that people always seemed surprised to learn that he was not a bookish, intellectual type and that he drank and smoked weed. Another thing that many people seemed to have misunderstood is Morrissey's wish to 'write for everyone'. He said many times that his intention -at least in the beginning of the Smiths's career - was to write lyrics that different people could interpret in the way that would fit their lives - but instead of this, the media have insisted on making it all about Morrissey himself, attempting to analyze his psychology and sexuality based on the lyrics. Instead of intepreting the lyrics in order to fit their lives, people have increasingly interpreted the lyrics in order to fit their idea of what Morrissey was like, or used their interpretations to prove something or other about his personality and his life.