Turkey vs. Canada

Fruits N Nuts

I Am A Ghost
I wonder what prompted Morrissey to play in Turkey. Considering that he refused to play in Canada because they club seals, why would he go to Turkey? Is he aware of the "mercy killings" in Turkey? Does he realize that hundreds of women are killed by their family members each year in Turkey for "shaming" the family name? And some women are so frightened that their brothers or fathers or uncles will kill them that they opt for suicide. And the so-called "shaming" is over silly things, like wanting to wear jeans or go to the movies or kissing a boy.

Killing is killing. I guess Morrissey values animal life moreso than human?
 
He was never in the front line when it comes to human rights. Remember the hilarious remark about that song for famine relief in Ethiopia/OK, I found it: "One can have great concern for the people of Ethiopia, but it's another thing to inflict daily torture on the people of England."

I wonder if there is ritual slaughter of sheep in Turkey, like I saw there is in Arab countries. Only then would Morrissey regret playing there. Although I doubt he truly believes that it could change things, but he is a public figure and realizes that because of that he has to stick to his principles.

edit: Also I don't think that Turkish government supports these things (unlike Canadian government when it comes to the cull). I remember watching a programme about women in Turkey who fight for their right to wear scarves in public institutions, since it is against the law at the moment.
 
Last edited:
chica said:
edit: Also I don't think that Turkish government supports these things (unlike Canadian government when it comes to the cull). I remember watching a programme about women in Turkey who fight for their right to wear scarves in public institutions, since it is against the law at the moment.



you're right, the turkish government doesn't condone the shame killings. I take it Fruit and Nuts read the article from New York Times where it is even mentionned Turkey does not condone it.

And to answer your question...morrissey chooses to fight for animal rights, not human rights. And it's his right to pick his battles.
 
Puddle said:
And to answer your question...morrissey chooses to fight for animal rights, not human rights. And it's his right to pick his battles.

that's it
 
Do you know who is Mustafa Kemal Ataturk? Well if you don't know him go, search, find what he did for Turkey, find out since when we have non-islamic laws, find out women in Turkey had/have rights before how many european countries.. And don't talk like that because of bunch of idiots who doesn't even know to read and write, who does't even know to speak Turkish! And it is against the law since the early days of Turkish Republic to wear scarves in public institutions, that's because Turkey is a laic government.

and

Puddle said:
And to answer your question...morrissey chooses to fight for animal rights, not human rights. And it's his right to pick his battles.

that's really it...
 
Sinefil said:
Do you know who is Mustafa Kemal Ataturk? Well if you don't know him go, search, find what he did for Turkey, find out since when we have non-islamic laws, find out women in Turkey had/have rights before how many european countries.. And don't talk like that because of bunch of idiots who doesn't even know to read and write, who does't even know to speak Turkish! And it is against the law since the early days of Turkish Republic to wear scarves in public institutions, that's because Turkey is a laic government.

and



that's really it...

Here Here!

Turkey is a fabulous place!
 
What's so special about Turkey?

I'm a 30 yr turkish guy and I really can't understand the grudge people baring towards my country? Which country is really perfect and innocent? Oh or is it because you care a lot for Turkey and you get sad about it and want to correct its bad sides as each other country has, thank you then.
 
Re: What's so special about Turkey?

vivasouthpaw said:
I'm a 30 yr turkish guy and I really can't understand the grudge people baring towards my country? Which country is really perfect and innocent? Oh or is it because you care a lot for Turkey and you get sad about it and want to correct its bad sides as each other country has, thank you then.

Turkey is nothing like what I expected it to be. I' ve been twice now and I'll be going again next year. I can't understand how anyone can slag it off, unless youre a Leeds fan and they get what they deserve!
 
I love Turkey and their people are amongst the finest I have met anywhere in the world. I have been there a few times.
However, I will never forget walking down a side street and coming across a group of old men slaughtering, ritually or otherwise, a sheep in the street in the middle of the day. It was horrifying.
 
As far as I know the Canadian ban is an organised international boycott.

That's how political organisations work. They pick a campaign to focus on as they can't do everything all at once.

So Morrissey is just joining up with what others are doing. It's collective action.

Next year they may decide to campaign against another country in which case I expect Morrissey will not play there either.
 
Jones said:
As far as I know the Canadian ban is an organised international boycott.

That's how political organisations work. They pick a campaign to focus on as they can't do everything all at once.

So Morrissey is just joining up with what others are doing. It's collective action.

Next year they may decide to campaign against another country in which case I expect Morrissey will not play there either.

well it sure wont be the U$A for the largest slaughter of animals on the planet ,because that is where the money is.

he should play canada and speak to the media in each city about the slaughter of seals to educate people.

the boycott will only make the fans suffer and no one else will even know about the boycott.
 
kill_uncle said:
well it sure wont be the U$A for the largest slaughter of animals on the planet ,because that is where the money is.

he should play canada and speak to the media in each city about the slaughter of seals to educate people.

the boycott will only make the fans suffer and no one else will even know about the boycott.

He said stuff about the seals on his last Canadian tour. Everyone ignored him.
 
Re: What's so special about Turkey?

Aly Panic said:
Turkey is nothing like what I expected it to be. I' ve been twice now and I'll be going again next year. I can't understand how anyone can slag it off, unless youre a Leeds fan and they get what they deserve!


Well there are some hardcore conservative religious communities that f*** things up for Turkey...like the shame killings we were talking about above. New York Times ran an in depth article about it in the past week; if you are interested you could look for it.
 
ok...here's the article i take it Fruit n' Nuts probably read:

How to Avoid Honor Killing in Turkey? Honor Suicide
By DAN BILEFSKY

BATMAN, Turkey — For Derya, a waiflike girl of 17, the order to kill herself came from an uncle and was delivered in a text message to her cellphone. “You have blackened our name,” it read. “Kill yourself and clean our shame or we will kill you first.”

Derya said her crime was to fall for a boy she had met at school last spring. She knew the risks: her aunt had been killed by her grandfather for seeing a boy. But after being cloistered and veiled for most of her life, she said, she felt free for the first time and wanted to express her independence.

When news of the love affair spread to her family, she said, her mother warned her that her father would kill her. But she refused to listen. Then came the threatening text messages, sent by her brothers and uncles, sometimes 15 a day. Derya said they were the equivalent of a death sentence.

Consumed by shame and fearing for her life, she said, she decided to carry out her family’s wishes. First, she said, she jumped into the Tigris River, but she survived. Next she tried hanging herself, but an uncle cut her down. Then she slashed her wrists with a kitchen knife.

“My family attacked my personality, and I felt I had committed the biggest sin in the world,” she said recently from a women’s shelter where she had traded in her veil for a T-shirt and jeans. She declined to give her last name for fear that her family was still hunting her. “I felt I had no right to dishonor my family, that I have no right to be alive. So I decided to respect my family’s desire and to die.”

Every few weeks in Batman and the surrounding area in southeast Anatolia, which is poor, rural and deeply influenced by conservative Islam, a young woman tries to take her life. Others have been stoned to death, strangled, shot or buried alive. Their offenses ranged from stealing a glance at a boy to wearing a short skirt, wanting to go to the movies, being raped by a stranger or relative or having consensual sex.

Hoping to join the European Union, Turkey has tightened the punishment for attacks on women and girls who have had such experiences. But the violence has continued, if by different means: parents are trying to spare their sons from the harsh punishments associated with killing their sisters by pressing the daughters to take their own lives instead.

“Families of disgraced girls are choosing between sacrificing a son to a life in prison by designating him to kill his sister or forcing their daughters to kill themselves,” said Yilmaz Akinci, who works for a rural development group. “Rather than losing two children, most opt for the latter option.”

Women’s groups here say the evidence suggests that a growing number of girls considered to be dishonored are being locked in a room for days with rat poison, a pistol or a rope, and told by their families that the only thing resting between their disgrace and redemption is death.

Batman (pronounced bot-MON) is a grim and dusty city of 250,000 people where religion is clashing with Turkey’s official secularism. The city was featured in the latest novel by the Turkish writer Orhan Pamuk, “Snow,” which chronicled a journalist’s investigation of a suicide epidemic among teenage girls.

In the past six years, there have been 165 suicides or suicide attempts in Batman, 102 of them by women. As many as 36 women have killed themselves since the start of this year, according to the United Nations. The organization estimates that 5,000 women are killed each year around the world by relatives who accuse them of bringing dishonor on their families; the majority of the killings are in the Middle East.

Last month, the United Nations dispatched a special envoy to Turkey to investigate. The envoy, Yakin Erturk, concluded that while some suicides were authentic, others appeared to be “honor killings disguised as a suicide or an accident.”

“The calls keep coming,” said Mehtap Ceylan, a member of Batman’s suicide prevention squad. She said she had very recently received a call about a 16-year-old girl who had committed suicide, her family said, because they would not let her wear jeans. But when Ms. Ceylan visited the house, neighbors told her the girl had been a happy person and had been wearing jeans for years.

“The story just doesn’t add up,” Ms. Ceylan said. “The girl’s family says their daughter was eating breakfast, walked into the next room and put a gun to her head. They were acting as if nothing had happened.”

Psychologists here say social upheavals in a region rocked by terrorism have played a role in the suicides. Many of the victims come from families in rural villages who have been displaced from the mountains to the cities because of warfare between Turkey and a Kurdish guerrilla group that wants to create an independent state for Kurds in southeastern Turkey.

Young women like Derya, who have previously led protected lives under the rigid moral strictures of their families and Islam, are suddenly finding themselves in the modern Turkey of Internet dating and MTV. The shift can create dangerous tensions, sometimes lethal ones, between their families and the secular values of the republic that the young women seek to embrace.

The price can be heavy. When a woman is suspected of engaging in sexual relations out of wedlock, her male relatives convene a family council to decide her sentence. Once news of the family’s shame has spread to the community, the family typically rules that it is only through death that its honor can be restored.

The European Union has warned Turkey that it is closely monitoring its progress on women’s rights and that failure to progress could impede its drive to enter the union.

Until recently, a family member of a dishonored girl, usually a brother younger than 18, would carry out the death sentence and receive a short prison sentence because of his youth. Sentences also were reduced under the defense that a relative had been provoked to commit murder.

But in the past two years, Turkey has revamped its penal code and imposed life sentences for such killings, known as honor killings, regardless of the killer’s age. This has prompted some families to take other steps, such as forcing their daughters to commit suicide or killing them and disguising the deaths as suicides.

In an effort to bring honor killings out from underground, Ka-Mer, a local women’s group, has created a hot line for women who fear their lives are at risk. Ka-Mer finds shelter for the women and helps them to apply to the courts for restraining orders against relatives who have threatened them.

Ayten Tekay, a caseworker for Ka-Mer in Diyarbakir, the regional center, said that of the 104 women who had called the group this year, more than half had been uneducated and illiterate. She said that in some cases the families had not wanted to kill their relatives but that the social pressure and incessant gossip had driven them to it.

“We have to bring these killings out from the shadows and teach women about their rights,” she said. “The laws have been changed, but the culture here will not change overnight.”

Derya, fiercely articulate and newly invigorated after counseling, said she was determined to get on with her life. “This region is religious and it is impossible to be yourself if you are a woman,” she said. “You can either escape by leaving your family and moving to a town, or you can kill yourself.”

Derya said the underlying problem was inequality between the sexes, even though the prophet Muhammad argued in favor of empowering women.

“In my village and in my father’s tribe, boys are in the sky while girls are treated as if they are under the earth,” she said. “As long as families do not trust their daughters, bad things will continue to happen.”
 
Puddle said:
ok...here's the article i take it Fruit n' Nuts probably read:

How to Avoid Honor Killing in Turkey? Honor Suicide
By DAN BILEFSKY



Yes, Puddle, that is the article I read. I wasn't trying to start any trouble with Turkish fans, I just couldn't believe something so horrific could still be going on in an otherwise modern/civilised country. Why Morrissey would look the other way to something so tragic, yet boycott a country for clubbing seals, is beyond me.
 
Fruits N Nuts said:
Why Morrissey would look the other way to something so tragic, yet boycott a country for clubbing seals, is beyond me.
B/c again, it is back to what puddle said. Moz chooses animal rights, not human rights, as his battle.

The boycott of Canada and the cancelled Italian venues related to fur promoting sponsors are just two recent items in a long history of animal rights activities that Moz engages in. Most serious activists zero in on one cause in order to have any hope of effecting change in that area. That is where they demonstrate their deep commitment and throw virtually all of their efforts and resources; for them, it is the cause that takes precedence over all others. For Moz, in my opinion a serious activist for much of his life, that cause is animals and only animals.
 
no one in particular said:
B/c again, it is back to what puddle said. Moz chooses animal rights, not human rights, as his battle.

The boycott of Canada and the cancelled Italian venues related to fur promoting sponsors are just two recent items in a long history of animal rights activities that Moz engages in. Most serious activists zero in on one cause in order to have any hope of effecting change in that area. That is where they demonstrate their deep commitment and throw virtually all of their efforts and resources; for them, it is the cause that takes precedence over all others. For Moz, in my opinion a serious activist for much of his life, that cause is animals and only animals.


Could you provide insight into Morrissey's appreciation for Gucci? I've seen photos of him in Gucci clothing. I would think that if one is deeply commited to animal rights, one would boycott ALL companies, products, countries, etc. that participate in animal cruelty. Or is it that Morrissey doesn't care about the rights of wild boar, ostrich, antelope and crocodile?
 
Fruits N Nuts said:
Could you provide insight into Morrissey's appreciation for Gucci? I've seen photos of him in Gucci clothing. I would think that if one is deeply commited to animal rights, one would boycott ALL companies, products, countries, etc. that participate in animal cruelty. Or is it that Morrissey doesn't care about the rights of wild boar, ostrich, antelope and crocodile?


you are being unrealistic...or are you trying to be silly?
 
Puddle said:
you are being unrealistic...or are you trying to be silly?

I dont think think she is being silly or unrealistic. There are animal-friendly clothing companies who make it a point to not feature any animal products in any of their clothing lines. Gucci is not one of them. I really dont want to question Morrisseys intentions, because he does do so much for the cause, but it is odd that he would support Gucci. I dont personally care, but I'm not the animal rights activist. And doesnt he drive an Aston Martin? Did he have t specially fit with fabric seating?
 
Puddle said:
you are being unrealistic...or are you trying to be silly?


I guess a bit of both. Seriously though, isn't it a bit hypocritical of Morrissey? I mean, either give your whole heart and soul to something or shut up about it. Do you know what I mean? If you're commited to animal rights, then live it 100%. There are no exceptions, even as tantalizing as a Gucci blazer may be.
 
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