I come from a culture with collectivist understanding of morality. Ever since the first grade I was taught that it was wrong not to let another child copy your homework or your answers on a test. Teachers didn't allow it because that was their job, but they weren't too strict about it. Only later I found out that in other countries it was considered morally wrong. Why exactly is it wrong?

I come from a culture with collectivist understanding of morality. Ever since the first grade I was taught that it was wrong not to let another child copy your homework or your answers on a test. Teachers didn't allow it because that was their job, but they weren't too strict about it. Only later I found out that in other countries it was considered morally wrong. Why exactly is it wrong?


In Japan primary school education starts at age of 7 (most of kids are actually 6 years old, they'll have birthday during grade 1 period).
I was an unruly child, often copied the answers of other kids during the tests.
However, my teacher wasn't really bothered because I realized copying my classmates' didn't help me to get higher mark so I stopped.

In Japan primary school education starts at age of 7 (most of kids are actually 6 years old, they'll have birthday during grade 1 period).
I was an unruly child, often copied the answers of other kids during the tests.
However, my teacher wasn't really bothered because I realized copying my classmates' didn't help me to get higher mark so I stopped.

Wait--you copied them? You didn't tell them the answers? Or cite examples of where each question was previously discussed?

Wait--you copied them? You didn't tell them the answers? Or cite examples of where each question was previously discussed?


It was sociology test (learn about duties of citizens, law and politics etc) when I finished I saw a boy's paper who was sitting next to me.
He wrote different answers, so I copied his.
Half of his answers were wrong, that taught me that copying others was bad idea.

Years later the boy turned out to be very bright because he passed the entrance exams of the best university of the region.

I haven't seen him for ages, but still remember his name.

Why exactly is it wrong?

http://www.funfacts.com.au/images/george-w-bush.jpg

You think the First Chimp's classmates ask that question?

The last school I worked at was a Comprehensive. I saw teachers actually give pupils answers and do work for them. Not in exams where exam conditions applied, but in the classroom., where they were doing work for their coursework. This is because teachers are under so much pressure to get the grades they actually do the work for the students. It happens, I have seen it first hand on many occasions.

You're just cheating yourself! :rolleyes:

However, tests (post primary school anyway) are just about jumping hoops for the school and really aren't a test of intelligence (yes I'm bitter) so you may as well keep them happy.
When I've copied it's usually because I've forgotten or didn't know there was a test and it's always off a friend; it's incredibly irritating when some unkind soul you barely talk to asks to copy work :mad: in fact this morning on the bus this girl had the cheek to ask me to go upstairs and ask somebody for their homework for her to copy, of course I gave her a very firm NO :)

At high school year 3 we had a weekly English spelling test.
However, some cunning people got info through other classes which had it few days earlier.
I didn't cheat because English was one of my favourite subjects.
Later teachers discovered the fact, majorities got penalty.


*edit*
This thread reminded me of Munchy's thread:

http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showthread.php?t=87913

Worm was closest to answering my question :p

However, no matter how much you cheat, you will still have to show your real worth to get anywhere. Employers aren't stupid. When they're stupid, they lose money. Well, it doesn't matter if it's taxpayers' money, but that's a different can of worms. ;)

[QUOTE=jesuisbryony;965192]You're just cheating yourself! :rolleyes:

Exactly.

Exactly.

Hello, Kiltie! Does it mean that helping people cheat is wrong because you're helping them do something that essentially harms them?

I hate it when people cheat.
I'll be doing my work or whatever and someone will ask me what the answer is. Half the time it's a worksheet, and the answer is in plain view in the text.
:mad: I hate getting in trouble, so it annoys me when people target me to try and cheat off of.

Hello, Kiltie! Does it mean that helping people cheat is wrong because you're helping them do something that essentially harms them?

I think it's essential to actually understand what it is you're being taught. There's too much about modern education that's about memory tests and examinations, rather than experiencing the sheer joy of understanding something you previously didn't have any idea about.

Education is rarely a joy, and it really should be.

How are you doing?...:guitar:

I think it's essential to actually understand what it is you're being taught. There's too much about modern education that's about memory tests and examinations, rather than experiencing the sheer joy of understanding something you previously didn't have any idea about.

That's why we all come here.

I think it's essential to actually understand what it is you're being taught. There's too much about modern education that's about memory tests and examinations, rather than experiencing the sheer joy of understanding something you previously didn't have any idea about.

Education is rarely a joy, and it really should be.

How are you doing?...:guitar:

I'm fine, thank you :) Now... did you answer my question? :confused: :D

"Tried to get me with their learning and their books,
Deep understanding and intelligent looks,
All of the time, they never saw me,
They were just looking for what they wanted to see.
They've got the lot, that's what they want you to think,
Read between the lines, you'll see the missing link.
Books are easy backs for what they want to do to you,
Bind you up in slavery for the privileged few,
They'll prove their lies with history, say "That's the way it always was,
Accept the shit and slavery, be one of us.""

I.E. no unless you charge for it.

That's why we all come here.

That, and finding a public platform to get this shit out of my head...:p

I'm fine, thank you :) Now... did you answer my question? :confused: :D

I think if you don't understand whatever the subject matter is, then that harms them. It shouldn't be beyond the realms of impossibility to actually use different techniques and come at things from various angles in order to pass on knowledge. I think this points at a lack of flexibility in teaching methods imposed from the top down by politicians who are trying to create the next generation of ants for the economy, which isn't a bad thing in itself.

But it genuinely astonishes me that Education is presented in such a mind-numbingly boring way.

Now I have a question for people who voted against charging: why is that wrong? Are you only supposed to help people for free? What's wrong with fair exchange?

i think its not really a good way to go about things, if you cheat or help someone cheat ,are you or that person you helped really learning anything?
but perhaps the real problem is how things are taught, very boring,some things could be a little more interesting and should be with the right teacher.

i think its not really a good way to go about things, if you cheat or help someone cheat ,are you or that person you helped really learning anything?

And how are you helping them if you don't help them cheat?

Now I have a question for people who voted against charging: why is that wrong? Are you only supposed to help people for free? What's wrong with fair exchange?

Because I only think cheating is okay as as an act of rebellion against compulsory state education which prepares children to be little capitalist wage-slaves, or to exploit the little capitalist wage-slaves, depending on how much their parents earn. So making money out of it basically defeats the point. (I don't actually think that kids cheat because they hate the capitalist system, haha. But I just meant that's why I don't find it morally wrong.)

And how are you helping them if you don't help them cheat?

well you are helping them by helping them cheat, but have they actually learned anything?

well you are helping them by helping them cheat, but have they actually learned anything?

Why is it your moral obligation to stop other people from doing things that they freely chose to do? Like choosing to cheat, instead of work hard?

Because I only think cheating is okay as as an act of rebellion against compulsory state education which prepares children to be little capitalist wage-slaves, or to exploit the little capitalist wage-slaves, depending on how much their parents earn. So making money out of it basically defeats the point. (I don't actually think that kids cheat because they hate the capitalist system, haha. But I just meant that's why I don't find it morally wrong.)

Is anything that can be considered an act of rebellion OK in your book?

Is anything that can be considered an act of rebellion OK in your book?

Not if it harms or threatens other people.

But why don't you explain us why you think cheating is wrong?

Is anything that can be considered an act of rebellion OK in your book?

Depends what's being rebelled against..

Why is it your moral obligation to stop other people from doing things that they freely chose to do? Like choosing to cheat, instead of work hard?

it is not my obligation.
I said cheating just shows that the student may not have learned what was expected of them.

if you had to have surgery, say a heart transplant would you rather have the surgeon who know what he was doing or the surgeon who cheated his way through school?
that is a drastic example,certainly if someone just goes out and cheats on some simple weekly math quiz there will probably be no harm done other than to the student cheating.
but where do you draw the line where cheating could cause harm?

it is not my obligation.
I said cheating just shows that the student may not have learned what was expected of them.

if you had to have surgery, say a heart transplant would you rather have the surgeon who know what he was doing or the surgeon who cheated his way through school?
that is a drastic example,certainly if someone just goes out and cheats on some simple weekly math quiz there will probably be no harm done other than to the student cheating.
but where do you draw the line where cheating could cause harm?

If it's possible to become a surgeon (lawyer, teacher) solely thanks to cheating, then evaluation systems of both academic institutions and employers are seriously flawed and need to be corrected asap. However, I don't think it is. I don't think that cheating can cause harm; bad systems can cause harm.

But why don't you explain us why you think cheating is wrong?

Cheating is wrong for several reasons. First, it fools the cheater into thinking that he is going to have a more successful outcome by cheating than by studying or working hard enough not to have to cheat. Second, it gives the person to allowed the cheater to cheat the mistaken belief that he's helped someone out, when in fact all he's done is reinforce the cheater's idea that it's OK not to solve his own problems. Third, it gives the cheater an unfair advantage over those who choose not to cheat, but who will perform more poorly than the cheater. Lastly, it's a major headache for the teacher, who has to spend extra time looking for signs of cheating, and disciplining the cheaters accordingly. Believe me, I've been on all sides of this.

If you're not smart enough or didn't work hard enough to do the work correctly, do everyone a favor and don't cheat. That's the fail-fast method that should ultimately keep you at the employment level that you deserve.

Depends what's being rebelled against..

Common sense, apparently.

Cheating is wrong for several reasons. First, it fools the cheater into thinking that he is going to have a more successful outcome by cheating than by studying or working hard enough not to have to cheat. Second, it gives the person to allowed the cheater to cheat the mistaken belief that he's helped someone out, when in fact all he's done is reinforce the cheater's idea that it's OK not to solve his own problems. Third, it gives the cheater an unfair advantage over those who choose not to cheat, but who will perform more poorly than the cheater. Lastly, it's a major headache for the teacher, who has to spend extra time looking for signs of cheating, and disciplining the cheaters accordingly. Believe me, I've been on all sides of this.

I don't see how the first two points are morally objectionable. As long as it's their choice, people are free to fool themselves to oblivion.

The third assumption is not correct, because it's impossible to fare better in life through cheating than through working hard.

As for the last one, since cheating is obviously not wrong, I don't see why teachers would make a big deal out of it.

Common sense, apparently.

Compulsary education can't and doesn't work.

Ok, I'll play along.

I don't see how the first two points are morally objectionable. As long as it's their choice, people are free to fool themselves to oblivion.

Not morally objectionable, but ethically objectionable. Not in the culture that you grew up in, purportedly, but I suspect that you're grossly oversimplifying the truth, and I'm not buying it.

The third assumption is not correct, because it's impossible to fare better in life through cheating than through working hard.

Tell that to our current president.

As for the last one, since cheating is obviously not wrong, I don't see why teachers would make a big deal out of it.

Obviously not wrong? If it's in the school's rulebook as being wrong, then it's wrong. Ah, but I bet your argument is that my first through third points failed to prove that it's wrong.

Compulsary education can't and doesn't work.

If your education was compulsory, then I see your point.

Ok, I'll play along.



Not morally objectionable, but ethically objectionable. Not in the culture that you grew up in, purportedly, but I suspect that you're grossly oversimplifying the truth, and I'm not buying it.



Tell that to our current president.



Obviously not wrong? If it's in the school's rulebook as being wrong, then it's wrong. Ah, but I bet your argument is that my first through third points failed to prove that it's wrong.

Yes, that.

As for your president, whatever gave him unfair advantage over other candidates, be sure cheating is very low on that list. If who is elected president of the USA depends on how effective American teachers are in dealing with cheating, I'd be worried about the future of the world.

If your education was compulsory, then I see your point.

My education is compulsory, but, I'm going to come out the other side like a real person, unlike most people you are subjected to it. Which is probably why you find me annoying.

Yes, that.

As for your president, whatever gave him unfair advantage over other candidates, be sure cheating is very low on that list. If who is elected president of the USA depends on how effective American teachers are in dealing with cheating, I'd be worried about the future of the world.

And you're not?

My education is compulsory, but, I'm going to come out the other side like a real person, unlike most people you are subjected to it. Which is probably why you find me annoying.

No, I find you annoying because you have no idea how naive and ridiculous you sound.

And you're not?

No, I'm not... I believe in oral exams :p You can only cheat there if the professor allows you to cheat.

No, I find you annoying because you have no idea how naive and ridiculous you sound.

The thing is, I find you annoying because, to be honest, you're boring, institutionalised,and completely oblivious to it all which is actually fairly amusing. I feel sorry for you.

Because I only think cheating is okay as as an act of rebellion against compulsory state education which prepares children to be little capitalist wage-slaves, or to exploit the little capitalist wage-slaves, depending on how much their parents earn. So making money out of it basically defeats the point. (I don't actually think that kids cheat because they hate the capitalist system, haha. But I just meant that's why I don't find it morally wrong.)

What the hell does a 14 year old know about capitalist 'wage-slaves'?
Someone got carried away with the Communism textbook :rolleyes:

No, I'm not... I believe in oral exams :p You can only cheat there if the professor allows you to cheat.

But oral exams are hardly a comprehensive way to prove that a student is competent enough to pass/graduate/whatever. Sure, they're pretty much guaranteed to make cheating much tougher, but for any profession that actually requires the slightest bit of non-verbal skills, they're useless. I don't care whether the engineer who designed the skyscraper I work in could articulate herself well enough to pass an exam; I want to know that she knew how to design a sturdy building.

Oral exams are for the useless subjects in the humanities. Personally, I loved taking them.

did someone mention oral?:p

The thing is, I find you annoying because, to be honest, you're boring, institutionalised,and completely oblivious to it all which is actually fairly amusing. I feel sorry for you.

At least it's mutual. :) But only one of us is on a crash-course towards bitter disappointment when Real Life intrudes.

But oral exams are hardly a comprehensive way to prove that a student is competent enough to pass/graduate/whatever. Sure, they're pretty much guaranteed to make cheating much tougher, but for any profession that actually requires the slightest bit of non-verbal skills, they're useless. I don't care whether the engineer who designed the skyscraper I work in could articulate herself well enough to pass an exam; I want to know that she knew how to design a sturdy building.

Oral exams are for the useless subjects in the humanities. Personally, I loved taking them.

But if the architect can't make a good project, all that cheating at school will be pretty useless to him/her. Alright, you may get a job because you cheated your way through school; but you can't keep it if you're incompetent.

At least it's mutual. :) But only one of us is on a crash-course towards bitter disappointment when Real Life intrudes.

'Real Life' doesn't have to be a hollow desk job and nuclear family. I know it's hard for you to see that, being so cynical and all... I know you think it's just my age, but I know lots of adults with similar views to me.

But if the architect can't make a good project, all that cheating at school will be pretty useless to him/her. Alright, you may get a job because you cheated your way through school; but you can't keep it if you're incompetent.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA! Never had a white-collar job, have you?

'Real Life' doesn't have to be a hollow desk job and nuclear family. I know it's hard for you to see that, being so cynical and all... I know you think it's just my age, but I know lots of adults with similar views to me.

So do I. I'm related to several of them. Hence the scorn. It has nothing to do with your age.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA! Never had in a white-collar job, have you?


Irrelevant. :cool: :p

Irrelevant. :cool: :p

Completely relevant. You'd NEVER make a claim like that if you'd seen the levels of incompetence that only "professional" jobs can produce.

Completely relevant. You'd NEVER make a claim like that if you'd seen the levels of incompetence that only "professional" jobs can produce.

But if they stay there, it means they've got what they need for the job. Hey, incompetence is needed for some jobs!

But if they stay there, it means they've got what they need for the job. Hey, incompetence is needed for some jobs!

Which is why I've managed to stay employed all this time. :cool:

charging..that is a very clever idea.

I only give answers from homework to people I like. :p
then when I forget, they will help me also.

I voted 'no, never' but copying someone's test isn't the best to do, everyone should study and so on... which, however, is not answer to your question nor how I usually behave.
I don't have a problem with other people looking at my sheets and copying my answers, as long as I don't get caught (yeah, in my country they nullify both tests, grrrr), and I answer to some questions if it's not too risky.

I used to have an italian teacher that was blind. With him it was possible to cheat even during oral tests: it was normal to answer his questions while reading the books. That was really nasty :(

Where I live cheating is normal even among PhD candidates. The italian university is a bunch of the most disgusting people you will ever meet.

I voted 'no, never' but copying someone's test isn't the best to do, everyone should study and so on... which, however, is not answer to your question nor how I usually behave.
I don't have a problem with other people looking at my sheets and copying my answers, as long as I don't get caught (yeah, in my country they nullify both tests, grrrr), and I answer to some questions if it's not too risky.

Come vanno gli studi judge? Ci stiamo avvicinando alla Laurea?

Cheating = intolerable.
... and do not cry if you are caught... I do not want to hear it.

Cheating = intolerable.
... and do not cry if you are caught... I do not want to hear it.

So why exactly is helping other students cheat wrong?

I used to have an italian teacher that was blind. With him it was possible to cheat even during oral tests: it was normal to answer his questions while reading the books. That was really nasty :(

Where I live cheating is normal even among PhD candidates. The italian university is a bunch of the most disgusting people you will ever meet.
ahahaha for you teacher :D
PhD=doctor of philosophy? did you study that? it isn't strange. philosophers are smart people.

Come vanno gli studi judge? Ci stiamo avvicinando alla Laurea?
beh... diversi esami vecchi e un altro anno di lezioni, poi tesi...

So why exactly is helping other students cheat wrong?

First of all, it's completely stupid. Why should you waste your time bailing out some ass who couldn't manage to do the work? That's not fair to you at all.

I have never been in a class, EVER, that was impossible to keep up with. Show up at class, do the assignments, do the readings, and you will at least make a B unless you really don't belong at that school or level.

It is wrong because it gives lazy students an unfair advantage over those who did the work fairly.

It's just like plagiarism, it's taking others' work and claiming it as your own.

Cheating can work different ways. I'm sure that we have all taken an "open-book exam". This is when the teacher realizes that so many kids may be failing that it is going to possibly cost them their job or at least make them look like bad teachers, or when they just can't face giving out all those F's and D's.

An open book exam feels like cheating but without the stress, just the mild sense of elation. I'm sure it has it's place, and I believe that the point ideally is to help you learn and also show you what you should have focused on if you had studied for a real test.

But real cheating makes the blood pump and puts you into a state of high alertness. I think that things that you learn while really cheating stay with you, provided you aren't just filling in the dots on a scantron sheet.

So it raises another question. If the point is to learn and you learn as you are cheating, is cheating bad? There's a strange factor of time. Did you know the answers before you took the test or after?

There is also the question of learning to prepare. On a test where you score in the high 90 percentile, you learned more than was asked on the test. Ideally the test asks the important questions, but has some element of randomness. There should be questions of lower level importance, and these are the questions that should determine the difference between the A, B, and C level students, and not the most critical questions. Anyone getting a C at least should get those.

One more question is practical application. If a person walks into the test knowing very little and manages to get a high score, this means that they might be the person you would want to hire. They know how to improvise and think on their feet. They have the innate intelligence to know the right answer from the wrong one based on logical deduction and instinct, and they might also be great at networking and a charismatic person if they manage to get the answers with the cooperation of those who did study.

So the answer is complicated, and I think that the answer that "cheating is wrong" is more of a moral issue than a practical or even an ethical one.

First of all, it's completely stupid. Why should you waste your time bailing out some ass who couldn't manage to do the work? That's not fair to you at all.

I have never been in a class, EVER, that was impossible to keep up with. Show up at class, do the assignments, do the readings, and you will at least make a B unless you really don't belong at that school or level.

It is wrong because it gives lazy students an unfair advantage over those who did the work fairly.

It's just like plagiarism, it's taking others' work and claiming it as your own.

I wouldn't bother answering the question, since Chica obviously knows the answer from the start and is trying to wind people up (again) :rolleyes:

Cheating is quite common in Hungarian schools, even at the highest levels. I'm not saying I never tried it, but most of the time it didn't really help, plus I felt so guilty that the stress of being possibly caught by the teacher was worse than that caused by the test itself.

I remember having an American teacher at the Business School who said that one of the most shocking things about Hungarian education system was cheating for him. The other one was how the whole system is based on factual knowledge, not the individual capacity of creative thinking. He was right in both cases.

First of all, it's completely stupid. Why should you waste your time bailing out some ass who couldn't manage to do the work? That's not fair to you at all.

As long as you make the choice to waste your time on that ass, I see no problem with it.

It is wrong because it gives lazy students an unfair advantage over those who did the work fairly.

No it doesn't. First, it doesn't take away from their knowledge - they're free to show all of it, and second, in the long run people with knowledge will fare better and people who cheated won't have an advantage over them.

It's just like plagiarism, it's taking others' work and claiming it as your own.

How is it wrong to allow other person to use your work and present it as theirs?

Cheating is quite common in Hungarian schools, even at the highest levels. I'm not saying I never tried it, but most of the time it didn't really help, plus I felt so guilty that the stress of being possibly caught by the teacher was worse than that caused by the test itself.

I remember having an American teacher at the Business School who said that one of the most shocking things about Hungarian education system was cheating for him. The other one was how the whole system is based on factual knowledge, not the individual capacity of creative thinking. He was right in both cases.

NRitH won't believe you.

I have never been in a class, EVER, that was impossible to keep up with. Show up at class, do the assignments, do the readings, and you will at least make a B unless you really don't belong at that school or level.

Two words to contradict what you said: graduate school.

It's just like plagiarism, it's taking others' work and claiming it as your own.

Good thing we're all here because we admire a singer who would never, ever borrow anything from anyone else. ;)

Cheating can work different ways. I'm sure that we have all taken an "open-book exam". This is when the teacher realizes that so many kids may be failing that it is going to possibly cost them their job or at least make them look like bad teachers, or when they just can't face giving out all those F's and D's.

An open book exam feels like cheating but without the stress, just the mild sense of elation. I'm sure it has it's place, and I believe that the point ideally is to help you learn and also show you what you should have focused on if you had studied for a real test.

That's too broad a statement. In the language classes that I took and taught, open-book tests were very common beyond the second or third year. For example, dictionaries were allowed for translation tests, but not grammars or other textbooks. That's because we were expected to know how the words and sentences were put together, but not necessarily what every word meant.

I remember having an American teacher at the Business School who said that one of the most shocking things about Hungarian education system was cheating for him. The other one was how the whole system is based on factual knowledge, not the individual capacity of creative thinking. He was right in both cases.

NRitH won't believe you.

Which part won't I believe? I believe both. Based on my teaching experience, I'd guess that cheating must also be endemic in the Pakistani & Indian education systems, because I was shocked at how much cheating was done by students from those countries in my classes. They were very open about it, and they couldn't understand why I kept giving them failing grades whenever I tried it. (Actually, they couldn't figure out why they couldn't bargain their way out of the failing grade. :rolleyes:)

Which part won't I believe? I believe both. Based on my teaching experience, I'd guess that cheating must also be endemic in the Pakistani & Indian education systems, because I was shocked at how much cheating was done by students from those countries in my classes. They were very open about it, and they couldn't understand why I kept giving them failing grades whenever I tried it. (Actually, they couldn't figure out why they couldn't bargain their way out of the failing grade. :rolleyes:)

Well, you didn't believe me that in my culture it's considered unethical NOT to let another student copy your answers.


Not morally objectionable, but ethically objectionable. Not in the culture that you grew up in, purportedly, but I suspect that you're grossly oversimplifying the truth, and I'm not buying it.

Well, you didn't believe me that in my culture it's considered unethical NOT to let another student copy your answers.

I still don't. Just because it's rampant in a culture doesn't mean it's considered ethical. I can maybe see how overseas students would cheat a bit to help each other succeed in a foreign land, but then again, that's giving them far more of a benefit of the doubt than I think they deserve.

I'm pretty sure that I directly or indirectly ruined a few of my students' careers by flunking them (quite deservedly), which may have gotten them kicked out of school eventually and sent packing. Oh, well.

I still don't. Just because it's rampant in a culture doesn't mean it's considered ethical. I can maybe see how overseas students would cheat a bit to help each other succeed in a foreign land, but then again, that's giving them far more of a benefit of the doubt than I think they deserve.

It wouldn't be rampant if it weren't considered ethical.

Also, certain gestures aren't considered racist. :rolleyes:

It wouldn't be rampant if it weren't considered ethical.

http://mnorton.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/23120027.jpg

Also, certain gestures aren't considered racist. :rolleyes:

LOL wut?

LOL wut?

Just because something is considered something in the great US of A, it doesn't mean that the same thing won't be considered something completely different or opposite in other, primitive countries. ;) I was subtly comparing you with PFTLT. Read this thread (http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showthread.php?t=89746).

beh... diversi esami vecchi e un altro anno di lezioni, poi tesi...

In bocca al lupo :)

because they will punch you:tears:

That would be classified under intimidation and be dealt with rather severely.

That would be classified under intimidation and be dealt with rather severely.

And then you'll get beat up even worse for telling. :rolleyes:

That would be classified under intimidation and be dealt with rather severely.

Not back in the 70s & 80s.