I like children. Im not sure Im going to have any of my own. I might, but I know I won't before I am 30.
I get pressure from people I barely know to have kids. You're married; why'd you get married if you're not going to have kids? :eek: :eek:

So I found a little website. No Kidding (http://www.nokidding.net/), for people who are childfree. cute, huh? they have chapters all over the world. its like that meetup website. all your friends have children and child-centered lives? want to make some new friends with other childless people?

I wonder if the meetups are any good, but I'd like it if they have forums like we do here, just so I could occasionally go to people who understand and complain about the unfair expectations society puts upon us to have children fast and furiously.

I think its interesting how picky the American society is about children, too. Its like you should only have kids in the 23-33 year old window. before that your a hooker, after that you're a selfish cow for putting your career first.

Only problem is that child-free zealots can be unbelievably nasty. There is no reason for that, there are as many good reasons not to have children as there are to have them.

Believe me... imagine spending your baby's first birthday watching 9/11 happen, wondering whether you've made a very grave mistake bringing an innocent child into this cesspit. :o

I think its interesting how picky the American society is about children, too. Its like you should only have kids in the 23-33 year old window. before that your a hooker, after that you're a selfish cow for putting your career first.

Well they're right, when you think about it.

Also, I can't believe how selfish those child-free people are! How monstrous do you have to be not to care about precious little baybees?! :mad: I'll bet some of them also had abortions 'n' stuff!

:guitar:

Only problem is that child-free zealots can be unbelievably nasty. There is no reason for that, there are as many good reasons not to have children as there are to have them.

Believe me... imagine spending your baby's first birthday watching 9/11 happen, wondering whether you've made a very grave mistake bringing an innocent child into this cesspit. :o

you're right, zealots in any case are annoying and retarded. but they got that way for a reason i guess; too many people's opinions really rubbed them the wrong way lol
watching 9/11 happen as a 20 yo was no picnic either; i thought the world was ending and i wasn't going to get to enjoy my life, eeeek! i was afraid but i still voted for kerry, good work that did :P
Well they're right, when you think about it.

Also, I can't believe how selfish those child-free people are! How monstrous do you have to be not to care about precious little baybees?! :mad: I'll bet some of them also had abortions 'n' stuff!

:guitar:

i have an abortion once a week! they're so wonderful, like an inner pelvic massage! I think I'll go get one now!

i have an abortion once a week! they're so wonderful, like an inner pelvic massage! I think I'll go get one now!

I'm LOLing to tears :D

It's selfish TO have children. It's a blessing to the world not to overpopulate it more.
I get annoyed the way you're looked at as a freak for not wanting children, especially as I get older. You're considered inhuman as a woman. I don't think men even get asked.
Anyway, I don't like the look of them.

It's selfish TO have children. It's a blessing to the world not to overpopulate it more.
I get annoyed the way you're looked at as a freak for not wanting children, especially as I get older. You're considered inhuman as a woman. I don't think men even get asked.
Anyway, I don't like the look of them.

But think about it, who's going to work and produce things if people like us stop having children? Someone will have to... and even if they happen to have the right skin colour and religion, they'll certainly have a funny accent! :eek:

I was at my cafeteria getting food and the chef noticed i was married. he asked me if i had kids, i said nope. i even said no not YET indicating i may plan to have them one day. he asked how old I was, I said 25 (this was 2 years ago) and he said "Well, you're running out of time, better get to it." :eek:

I like children. Im not sure Im going to have any of my own. I might, but I know I won't before I am 30.
I get pressure from people I barely know to have kids. You're married; why'd you get married if you're not going to have kids? :eek: :eek:

So I found a little website. No Kidding (http://www.nokidding.net/), for people who are childfree. cute, huh? they have chapters all over the world. its like that meetup website. all your friends have children and child-centered lives? want to make some new friends with other childless people?

I wonder if the meetups are any good, but I'd like it if they have forums like we do here, just so I could occasionally go to people who understand and complain about the unfair expectations society puts upon us to have children fast and furiously.

I think its interesting how picky the American society is about children, too. Its like you should only have kids in the 23-33 year old window. before that your a hooker, after that you're a selfish cow for putting your career first.
I agree. People tell me all the time I'll change my mind about not wanting children, but what if I don't? our choice!

I was at my cafeteria getting food and the chef noticed i was married. he asked me if i had kids, i said nope. i even said no not YET indicating i may plan to have them one day. he asked how old I was, I said 25 (this was 2 years ago) and he said "Well, you're running out of time, better get to it." :eek:

It's outrageous tha people think they have the right to say stuff like that to women.

Also, I'm not against anyone having children, or wanting children, good luck to them.

Everyone should really just do what they want to do, and not get involved in other people's business.

I definitely do not feel ready for the responsibility of having a child yet, but I think, when I get settled down with someone, and am a few years older, I will be wanting to start a family. I like kids, in general, and want a family of my own one day. Just not yet. :)
As for people not wanting kids, or waiting until their older, thats their choice, and its noone elses right to have a say in the matter.

It's outrageous tha people think they have the right to say stuff like that to women.

Also, I'm not against anyone having children, or wanting children, good luck to them.

Everyone should really just do what they want to do, and not get involved in other people's business.


I can't agree with you more.

Two of my relatives are unable to have children, but the society is so harsh to them.

Some of my friends really want to get married and have kids, but they still haven't found the right person yet.

Pity some people in the States are also extreamly conservative and can't help poking their noses to others' business.

I personally do not want children (I know I am only 71 before you all start!) but I just think I would be crap, I am with all young children.

By the way this poll appears to only be going one way so far :D

Love PTxx.

I love being a Mummy...quite the most rewarding experience of my life...I loved being pregnant too...never felt so sexy as I did with my baby curves!

It is, however, a HUGE commitment and the sacrifices you have to make for your children are enormous...so I respect people who decide that parenthood just isn't for them. I am sure you can have an equally fun and rewarding life with out the little whipper-snappers in tow! I do miss the freedom of a childfree life sometimes!

Love Alma xxx

I don't think anything in particular.
Personally, I don't want children, never wanted, even as kid myself I knew it. The sight of a baby doesn't make me feel all warm inside and I completely lack maternal instinct. :)

I can't agree with you more.

Two of my relatives are unable to have children, but the society is so harsh to them.

Some of my friends really want to get married and have kids, but they still haven't found the right person yet.

Pity some people in the States are also extreamly conservative and can't help poking their noses to others' business.

Just the states?

I was asked at Time Square ESPN zone by someone from the UK why I wasn't married or had any kids.

He was amazed that all of my dumb buddies and myself were at a bar drinking and then headed up to a baseball game. I remember he asked if our wives were okay with it. We all replied that we were not married. He was astonished and asked if any of us had kids. Again, we all replied "no". He was beside himself. As stated above he said we should get a move on as we were not getting any younger.

I believe the Yankees won that night.

I personally do not want children (I know I am only 71 before you all start!) but I just think I would be crap, I am with all young children.

By the way this poll appears to only be going one way so far :D

Love PTxx.

If you are 71 then I believe the decision to have kids is no longer an option.

If you are 71 then I believe the decision to have kids is no longer an option.

Ah crap :doh: I should always check what I am typing :o

Just to clear things up I am not 71 I am in fact 17!

Love PTxx.

I love being a Mummy...quite the most rewarding experience of my life...I loved being pregnant too...never felt so sexy as I did with my baby curves!

It is, however, a HUGE commitment and the sacrifices you have to make for your children are enormous...so I respect people who decide that parenthood just isn't for them. I am sure you can have an equally fun and rewarding life with out the little whipper-snappers in tow! I do miss the freedom of a childfree life sometimes!

Love Alma xxx

Well said alma! I agree completely...(except I neither liked, nor felt very sexy, when I was pregnant!)



Pity some people in the States are also extreamly conservative and can't help poking their noses to others' business.

WTF is that supposed to mean?

WTF is that supposed to mean?

possibly Kewpie was commenting on bogdanas comment here
I think its interesting how picky the American society is about children, too. Its like you should only have kids in the 23-33 year old window. before that your a hooker, after that you're a selfish cow for putting your career first.

of course she can talk for herself. :D

I think you make your own mind re having a family, I know my sister gets gasps of shock when she says she does not want a family, she is 38 now and def does not want kids, Its interesting people having shocked reactions to it. Mind your own business I say.

Well said alma! I agree completely...(except I neither liked, nor felt very sexy, when I was pregnant!)



WTF is that supposed to mean?

Forgive her for she knows not what she says.

Imagine if I spent the next 100 messages quoting or making up bible passages in reference to threads?

I think its interesting how picky the American society is about children, too. Its like you should only have kids in the 23-33 year old window. before that your a hooker, after that you're a selfish cow for putting your career first.

Oh I don't think that is true...and I live in the conservative Mid West.
I wouldn't say "hooker"...I'd say "tramp," "crackhead" or "misguided teenager who used bad judgement."

Women wait longer now to have children...I don't think it has anything to do with being a "selfish cow."

Don't worry about what other people say or think....do what is right for you!

Personally i want childern- may change my mind when i grow older but i would never hold it against someone if they didn't have childern.:confused: I don't understand why anyone would.

Forgive her for she knows not what she says.

Imagine if I spent the next 100 messages quoting or making up bible passages in reference to threads?

:D :guitar: niiiice

Just the states?

I was asked at Time Square ESPN zone by someone from the UK why I wasn't married or had any kids.

He was amazed that all of my dumb buddies and myself were at a bar drinking and then headed up to a baseball game. I remember he asked if our wives were okay with it. We all replied that we were not married. He was astonished and asked if any of us had kids. Again, we all replied "no". He was beside himself. As stated above he said we should get a move on as we were not getting any younger.

I believe the Yankees won that night.

Well said alma! I agree completely...(except I neither liked, nor felt very sexy, when I was pregnant!)



WTF is that supposed to mean?

Forgive her for she knows not what she says.

Imagine if I spent the next 100 messages quoting or making up bible passages in reference to threads?

possibly Kewpie was commenting on bogdanas comment here


of course she can talk for herself. :D

I think you make your own mind re having a family, I know my sister gets gasps of shock when she says she does not want a family, she is 38 now and def does not want kids, Its interesting people having shocked reactions to it. Mind your own business I say.

Thank you Karin.
I originally said pity some people in the States are also extreamly conservative.
What I'm saying is not only people in Far East or other countries are considered as conservative, also some people in the States have very similar attitude.
Shame some people need to be spoon-fed.

Thank you Karin.
I originally said pity some people in the States are also extreamly conservative.
What I'm saying is not only people in Far East or other countries are considered as conservative, also some people in the States have very similar attitude.
Shame some people need to be spoon-fed.

especially those damn babies, can't they just feed themselves? ;)

My ex boyfriend wanted us to join No Kidding as neither one of us wanted to have kids. He had a friend who belonged to it. Although I still don't feel motherhood would ever suit me, the thought of joining a club about it made me a bit uncomfortable. But I understand why people who don't have kids would feel the need for unity. I get tired of the dirty looks from people who feel I should reproduce and find it "unnatural" that I don't want to marry or reproduce. I think it is insane to try to pressure a person who doesn't want children to have them. I knew when I was a kid I didn't want to have a family. People always say I just "haven't met the right man..." I am now reaching my mid thirties and still have no desire for married life or kids so if that right man is supposed to show up he'd better be quick about it!:D

I've been married for 4 years. My husband and I do want to have kids, just not YET. I'm quite lucky cause I haven't been asked too many questions yet by relatives/friends etc. but my mom was kind enough to remind me that we should start working on it because "you never know if you can have kids". I said to her: "wtf does that matter if I discover NOW that I can't have kids or in 4 and a half years? or 10 years?" Geez! :mad: Of course I'd love to have my own but if that is impossible, we can still think about adoption.

I hate it when people who are parents, suddenly think that because they have a child they know everything about the world and start to talk down to you.

Anyone can have a child, its not an indication of intellect

Ah crap :doh: I should always check what I am typing :o

Just to clear things up I am not 71 I am in fact 17!

Love PTxx.

Uncle Sigmund would like to say a thing or two about your lapsus :)

Thank you Karin.
I originally said pity some people in the States are also extreamly conservative.
What I'm saying is not only people in Far East or other countries are considered as conservative, also some people in the States have very similar attitude.
Shame some people need to be spoon-fed.

Shame on YOU.

It was taken as another strike on the perceptions of US Citizens. I do not take it that you are anyone to criticize or comment on "spoon feeding" people information or explanations.

Shame on YOU.


What am I supposed to ashamed of?

Carry on picking on me, silly sausage.

I only replied to the thread starter's comment which you just ignored.

You'd better put me on ignore because you're wasting your time.

You'd better put me on ignore because you're wasting your time.

Funny you should mention that, since I just changed my homepage URL the other day.

I dunno if I want kids, I am waaay young to even think about it haha.
It's not selfish at all to not have them, it's just that parents should genuinely want to help and love their kids and I wouldn't ever have them if I couldn't fulfill that. :cool:

Being childless may well mean you have a more carefree,responsibilty free life.You'll have less stress and more money.But you'll probably also be lonelier later on in life when there are no grandchildren.My partner is one of five and it is the three boys that have children.The two women were always career led and never had children.One even had three abortions.They both have admitted how bitterly they regret not having children.Their careers have become empty means of earning cash.They have nice holidays but all their contemparies have children and they realise all the money is pointless.They have big houses with lots of rooms but no children to fill the home with laughter.

Having children is tough and in many ways the hardest job you'll ever have but it is without doubt the greatest achievement anyone can have.

I never had children and got so sick of people asking me why I started saying I couldn't have them. I know it's awful but then you don't have to explain and justify why to everyone. They think there is something wrong with you if you just say you didn't want them.

I never had children and got so sick of people asking me why I started saying I couldn't have them. I know it's awful but then you don't have to explain and justify why to everyone. They think there is something wrong with you if you just say you didn't want them.


They will start telling you that you should try harder. And that you probably haven't done everything possible. It has happened to a friend of mine who really was struggling to have a baby.:rolleyes:

I think it's a free choise, of course it is. But I see people in my family without children, and they... when they grow old, they become selfish and ...bitter. So, for Most people (=not all) I think it's better to have children than to be without

They will start telling you that you should try harder. And that you probably haven't done everything possible. It has happened to a friend of mine who really was struggling to have a baby.:rolleyes:

Well I'm nearly 47 so they don't tend to say it now. Although some people say there is still time. I don't think so! I can barely look after myself some days, never mind a tiny little baby. My mum says there will be no-one to look after me when I get old! I daren't tell her I'm not gonna do that for her. Only kidding. Or am I?

I am presently reading a book right now entitled
" I hate other people's kids"

I think that explains my outlook on children

maybe I am a selfish terrible person...

maybe not
:D

I always thought I would have a bunch of kids growing up but life just didn't happen that way. :( I do think what people decide is their own business and busy bodies should find somewhere else to stick their nose. ;)

I now present to all of you the Kewpie analysis post

What am I supposed to ashamed of?
Let us begin with shamelessly disclosing activities and personal information that by user agreement should not be revealed. The user agreement is a contract of sorts. If I do and follow "a" I am allowed to use "b" as they were intended. You seem to let everyone know who is looking through the board privately, who has multiple names and anything else that suits you. The last time I brought this up you failed to address it. While I know you are FULLY capable of searching through the forums, why don't we present it for everyone to see... you know... the way you like to do it.
http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showpost.php?p=661447&postcount=58

Carry on picking on me,
You have yet to see me pick on you... When I do, you will know it.

silly sausage[/B].
Is that an italian reference? Should I be offended? I don't know at this point. I will consider it. Who would I report it to though?

I only replied to the thread starter's comment which you just ignored.
I did not ignore it. I had already read it and did not take issue with what they posted only with what you posted. Hence, I quoted and commented on what you wrote. Go ahead... its okay... put your hand to your forehead and say "Ohhhhhh"

You'd better put me on ignore because you're wasting your time.
Now why would I do that? You have been a source of comic relief since the day I arrived. I am sure that you have something witty to reply to this as well. If not there are two things that you can do....

Nothing
and like it.

Carry on your sad baiting game.

This is the last time I reply your post.

No need for digging out old argument which you had nothing to do with.
This particular user might be very grateful to your patronizing comment.



If you have any problem just report to the other mods and David.

Let us begin with shamelessly disclosing activities and personal information that by user agreement should not be revealed. The user agreement is a contract of sorts. If I do and follow "a" I am allowed to use "b" as they were intended. You seem to let everyone know who is looking through the board privately, who has multiple names and anything else that suits you. The last time I brought this up you failed to address it. While I know you are FULLY capable of searching through the forums, why don't we present it for everyone to see... you know... the way you like to do it.

I promise, Kewpie, if it ever comes to exposing me, I hereby give you the right to do so :) ;)

Carry on your sad baiting game.

This is the last time I reply your post.

If you have any problem just report to the other mods and David.

Baiting game? You never responded to a serious concern that I raised last September. I find it troubling that you fail to do so. No baiting. I asked for you to explain your actions in accordance to a user policy that you enforce. Since you are unable to do so I take it that you have no defense for those actions. I still contend that you violated the user agreement.

How interesting that you failed to address it then as well as now.

I promise, Kewpie, if it ever comes to exposing me, I hereby give you the right to do so :) ;)


chica, you never upset anyone in here.
Some people enjoy being paranoid which gives them excitment I suppose. :o

Pity some people in the States are also extreamly conservative and can't help poking their noses to others' business.

I'll have to raise a hand in objection to this, too. However it was intended, it comes across as a pointed dig at the Americans here. You should be very careful with typed posts, without tone of voice and facial expresssion to rely on, it's easy to say something you didn't mean. Maybe a bit more proofreading would be prudent?

Carry on picking on me, silly sausage.

This is offensive. There is no way you can play this off. I don't care if it's a direct translation of a Japanese idiom or something, your English is good enough to know that this was out of line at least two different ways.

Carry on your sad baiting game.

Kewpie, nobody's baiting you. Can you honestly say you're not baiting any of us? You're getting increasingly nasty and I don't know why.


Anyway, back to topic, when we met our next door neighbors for the first time, they introduced themselves so: "Hi, I'm Sam and this is my wife, Joan. We've decided not to have children." I blinked twice. Then I felt really sad for them. Clearly they've deflected so much crap over their decision that they just try to head it off before it starts. I really don't care whether anyone else has children or not. I will never give someone a hard time about it, never knowing exactly what their reasoning has been. But I fully expect that no one will give me a hard time for choosing to become a parent.

And I don't really like kids, either. I'm not raising kids, I'm raising future adults. And I think they're going to be really cool, intelligent, wonderful people.

I wonder if the meetups are any good, but I'd like it if they have forums like we do here, just so I could occasionally go to people who understand and complain about the unfair expectations society puts upon us to have children fast and furiously.
.


Maybe we can have it here. I'm surprised to see so many women (people?) here say they are not planning on having children. I've only known a few people in my life that feel the same way as me about it.

It has to be a free choice doesn't it?

I had children fairly young I guess & I never expected how much I would love them...its overwhelming. Also, having children helped to focus me towards what I really wanted out of life.

I'll have to raise a hand in objection to this, too. However it was intended, it comes across as a pointed dig at the Americans here. You should be very careful with typed posts, without tone of voice and facial expresssion to rely on, it's easy to say something you didn't mean. Maybe a bit more proofreading would be prudent?



This is offensive. There is no way you can play this off. I don't care if it's a direct translation of a Japanese idiom or something, your English is good enough to know that this was out of line at least two different ways.



Kewpie, nobody's baiting you. Can you honestly say you're not baiting any of us? You're getting increasingly nasty and I don't know why.


Anyway, back to topic, when we met our next door neighbors for the first time, they introduced themselves so: "Hi, I'm Sam and this is my wife, Joan. We've decided not to have children." I blinked twice. Then I felt really sad for them. Clearly they've deflected so much crap over their decision that they just try to head it off before it starts. I really don't care whether anyone else has children or not. I will never give someone a hard time about it, never knowing exactly what their reasoning has been. But I fully expect that no one will give me a hard time for choosing to become a parent.

And I don't really like kids, either. I'm not raising kids, I'm raising future adults. And I think they're going to be really cool, intelligent, wonderful people.


I never criticized ALL people in the States.
Thread starter complained about some fellow Americans' patronizing comment about a married woman who didn't have a child.
It's so shocking that some of you misunderstand what I said.

I never criticized ALL people in the States.
Thread starter complained about some fellow Americans' patronizing comment about a married woman who didn't have a child.
It's so shocking that some of you misunderstand what I said.

I said that earlier Kewpie, people will pick out what they want. I think its silly if people think you were slagging all americans and as for pointing out that it was a dig to american users here that is just stupid in my mind. Of course I am sure since silly sausage has been taken as a terrible insult then this will be taken as an insult as well. :(

As the daughter of a man who usually dates women who don't have kids - it can be kinda tough to date someone WITH kids.

Like for instance, my ex-step mom and I never got along because she had never had kids, and she didn't know really how to take care of one. So it can be kinda tough, and I can totally understand where people are coming from. Now that I'm older it doesn't matter a whole lot, as I typically spend time on my own rather then with my dad and his girlfriends, lol.

but especially with younger kids, it can be difficult. I used to be very attatched to my mother despite her not being a very good one, and that continually frustrated my step-mom who didn't get why.

But couples who choose not have kids - it's their choice. We all know kids can be a handful, and I'd rather have someone NOT have kids, then have them and not know how to control them. My mom for instance, has two other children other then me, and as much as I love my brothers, she doesn't really...know how to control them or discipline them. So sometimes, having no kids is the best thing if you're not postive you can take care of them and raise them as best you can.

My ex boyfriend wanted us to join No Kidding as neither one of us wanted to have kids. He had a friend who belonged to it. Although I still don't feel motherhood would ever suit me, the thought of joining a club about it made me a bit uncomfortable. But I understand why people who don't have kids would feel the need for unity. :D
i think its more of a group so that you can easily find friends to hang out with at any time because they dont have kids. most of my friends have children so they are almost NEVER available to spend some QT outside the house, which is fine that's their decision when they had kids, but then J and I are doing everything by ourselves. So it would be cool to meet other people who aren't 'tied down' so to speak with minors.
I hate it when people who are parents, suddenly think that because they have a child they know everything about the world and start to talk down to you.

Anyone can have a child, its not an indication of intellect
i work with someone like that, and I pity her child enormously.
Being childless may well mean you have a more carefree,responsibilty free life.You'll have less stress and more money.But you'll probably also be lonelier later on in life when there are no grandchildren.My partner is one of five and it is the three boys that have children.The two women were always career led and never had children.One even had three abortions.They both have admitted how bitterly they regret not having children.Their careers have become empty means of earning cash.They have nice holidays but all their contemparies have children and they realise all the money is pointless.They have big houses with lots of rooms but no children to fill the home with laughter.

Having children is tough and in many ways the hardest job you'll ever have but it is without doubt the greatest achievement anyone can have.
I think the above bolded is a common misconception and myth. Some people probably do get lonely and feel regret, but many others don't. In fact, I know a few women that were so content with their nieces and nephews they didn't feel the need to fill any voids. I haven't decided whether or not I'm having kids, but I'd like to point out that not everyone is career driven for the money. Personally I enjoy helping people and changing lives. If I can help make sick or dying people well, depressed people happy, I am a useful and needed member of society even if I don't have children. My life will be full of love for others. I know many teachers that feel the same way. They touch far more young lives than had they just had their own and settled for no job or a half-assed one. I hope you don't think I'm picking on you I respect your post and your opinion and I am sure many others think like you but don't speak on it.
I never had children and got so sick of people asking me why I started saying I couldn't have them. I know it's awful but then you don't have to explain and justify why to everyone. They think there is something wrong with you if you just say you didn't want them.
that is a shame. and i've done that before too.
Well I'm nearly 47 so they don't tend to say it now. Although some people say there is still time. I don't think so! I can barely look after myself some days, never mind a tiny little baby. My mum says there will be no-one to look after me when I get old! I daren't tell her I'm not gonna do that for her. Only kidding. Or am I?
I can tell you I wont be taking care of my mother. there's no guarantee your spawn will do anything for you.
Maybe we can have it here. I'm surprised to see so many women (people?) here say they are not planning on having children. I've only known a few people in my life that feel the same way as me about it.
im surprised too! we should have a little thread about it. this one i guess hahaha!
It has to be a free choice doesn't it?

I had children fairly young I guess & I never expected how much I would love them...its overwhelming. Also, having children helped to focus me towards what I really wanted out of life.

Interesting angle. I know a mother who would have been worse off had she not had a child early and accidentally in life. It changed her for the better! but I know another that the baby changed her for the worse- she's a little psycho and has cut off all her friends. I miss the "old" her before she became a shut in.

Interesting angle. I know a mother who would have been worse off had she not had a child early and accidentally in life. It changed her for the better! but I know another that the baby changed her for the worse- she's a little psycho and has cut off all her friends. I miss the "old" her before she became a shut in.[/QUOTE]

Yes...mine were 'early & accidental'...but I really do feel that they have given me so much (a reason to 'stay' here), which I think actually is quite a lot to put on their young shoulders. But hey, I'm focused & really work hard to make a good life for them.

Yes...mine were 'early & accidental'...but I really do feel that they have given me so much (a reason to 'stay' here), which I think actually is quite a lot to put on their young shoulders. But hey, I'm focused & really work hard to make a good life for them.

good for you for turning it into a positive instead of a negative. You're already a more mature parent than some others who choose exactly when they have theirs. You're surely a good example for them and that is priceless.

good for you for turning it into a positive instead of a negative. You're already a more mature parent than some others who choose exactly when they have theirs. You're surely a good example for them and that is priceless.

Thank you! I try to be a good example...:)

Being childless may well mean you have a more carefree,responsibilty free life.You'll have less stress and more money.But you'll probably also be lonelier later on in life when there are no grandchildren.My partner is one of five and it is the three boys that have children.The two women were always career led and never had children.One even had three abortions.They both have admitted how bitterly they regret not having children.Their careers have become empty means of earning cash.They have nice holidays but all their contemparies have children and they realise all the money is pointless.They have big houses with lots of rooms but no children to fill the home with laughter.

Having children is tough and in many ways the hardest job you'll ever have but it is without doubt the greatest achievement anyone can have.

Gee Hellie, I generally like what you have to say, but you're waaaay off-base here, and your opinions are what drive child free people to be so defensive.

My husband and I have been together for 22 plus years (we got together when we were very young), and we have never, ever wanted children, and we're glad we never had any. We are very happily married and fulfilled as people.

We are not empty careerists - I run my own business, which does not make much money, but does make me very happy. I get to pass on my values and knowledge and aesthetics to the next generation, and the one after that. I love it when the kids "get it," and appreciate what I do, and I'm still glad that those kids are not my own.

I love a quiet house. I love the ability to travel, and write, and be autonomous, and not have blood ties to the future. I love my freedom. I know that I am missing out on something profound, but there is a great profundity in how I choose to live, and I would not change it for the world.

Just because you find fulfillment in children (good for you, by the way), does not mean that everyone else does. Those folks you know who regret their decision may have made the wrong decision for themselves, but I have older friends who are very happy without kids - granted we're all a bit eccentric, but we are self-defined, travel a lot, very creative, and we lead lives that are fulfilling, just in different ways.

Having children is not the greatest human achievement - that is an outdated bromide, in my opinion. Living well, giving of oneself spiritually, emotionally, intellectually and aesthetically, these are the things that make a difference. This is the true worth of a person.

The biological imperative is fine for some, maybe even most, but definitely not for all.

im all about self-actualization right now. :) anaesthesine, your post helps shape the image of childless couples that I wish people would be able to see. I'm glad Hellie said what she did because there's a lot of people out there who think the same thing, and are afraid of the same thing; if I dont have kids, I'll be lonely, or if I don't have kids, I'll regret it. Its nice to hear "we didn't have kids, and my life is still full".
I said earlier something you also said, that if I choose to focus on my career, its not about the money at all. I've always wanted to make a difference, and that's what I've set out to do with my life. If I don't have kids along the way... that is okay.

Gee Hellie, I generally like what you have to say, but you're waaaay off-base here, and your opinions are what drive child free people to be so defensive.

My husband and I have been together for 22 plus years (we got together when we were very young), and we have never, ever wanted children, and we're glad we never had any. We are very happily married and fulfilled as people.

We are not empty careerists - I run my own business, which does not make much money, but does make me very happy. I get to pass on my values and knowledge and aesthetics to the next generation, and the one after that. I love it when the kids "get it," and appreciate what I do, and I'm still glad that those kids are not my own.

I love a quiet house. I love the ability to travel, and write, and be autonomous, and not have blood ties to the future. I love my freedom. I know that I am missing out on something profound, but there is a great profundity in how I choose to live, and I would not change it for the world.

Just because you find fulfillment in children (good for you, by the way), does not mean that everyone else does. Those folks you know who regret their decision may have made the wrong decision for themselves, but I have older friends who are very happy without kids - granted we're all a bit eccentric, but we are self-defined, travel a lot, very creative, and we lead lives that are fulfilling, just in different ways.

Having children is not the greatest human achievement - that is an outdated bromide, in my opinion. Living well, giving of oneself spiritually, emotionally, intellectually and aesthetically, these are the things that make a difference. This is the true worth of a person.

The biological imperative is fine for some, maybe even most, but definitely not for all.

Altough I'd like to have children, I can understand why people wouldn't want to have any. I very much enjoyed reading your post and seeing that it is possible to lead a happy wholesome life without kids. :)

Read through this thread, I found it shocking, what is the world coming to? Married women without children. That is what you are built for and that’s why you marry men, to have babies. To cook and clean and look after the home for your man and have some children to keep you busy during the day until you have to cook the dinner for your husband for when he comes home. No wonder the world is in the mess it is now, women don’t understand the value of being at home and being mothers.

I found this picture, look how happy she is looking after the home and stuff! She so much better with a baby under her arm!
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k238/morrisseysolo/240747832_610d3d846c.jpg






(tongue in cheek post of the week):p

(tongue in cheek post of the week):p


We knew it was tongue in cheek and we love you for that. :sweet:

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k238/morrisseysolo/240747832_610d3d846c.jpg


Cornelius, I'm officially creeped out. Where did you find these pictures of me?

Do you know what Corny i couldn't agree more with your chauvanistic opinions.I'd love just to be little old stay at home wifey....the trouble is us women are supposed to contribute to the mortgage as well...and we save hard but the man of the house usually goes down the pub and drinks it all away.:(

im surprised too! we should have a little thread about it. this one i guess hahaha!


Haha, yes.


The thought of what will be with me when I'm old scares me. I'm not so much afraid of being lonely. I'm not very social anyway, and I'm lucky enough to have a few people in my life that I believe will always be around. But what if I'm sick? What if I won't be able to take care of myself anymore? I know having children wouldn't necessary solve this problem. It's also very clear to me that this fear doesn't change the way I feel about having children. And still, I'm busy with that lately. I think it's because I see how much my ill grandmother is depended on her daughters for help and support.






Having children is tough and in many ways the hardest job you'll ever have but it is without doubt the greatest achievement anyone can have.

Without a doubt?! I seriously doubt that :)

Do you know what Corny i couldn't agree more with your chauvanistic opinions.

I was only joking:o I woke up this morning with my head in time warp of the 1940s, i had a pipe and slippers and a newspaper:confused:


I'd love just to be little old stay at home wifey....the trouble is us women are supposed to contribute to the mortgage as well...and we save hard but the man of the house usually goes down the pub and drinks it all away.:(

then you divorce the fucker!

Read through this thread, I found it shocking, what is the world coming to? Married women without children. That is what you are built for and that’s why you marry men, to have babies. To cook and clean and look after the home for your man and have some children to keep you busy during the day until you have to cook the dinner for your husband for when he comes home. No wonder the world is in the mess it is now, women don’t understand the value of being at home and being mothers.

I found this picture, look how happy she is looking after the home and stuff! She so much better with a baby under her arm!
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k238/morrisseysolo/240747832_610d3d846c.jpg






(tongue in cheek post of the week):p
haha:p This'll be my new desktop background;)

Gee Hellie, I generally like what you have to say, but you're waaaay off-base here, and your opinions are what drive child free people to be so defensive.

My husband and I have been together for 22 plus years (we got together when we were very young), and we have never, ever wanted children, and we're glad we never had any. We are very happily married and fulfilled as people.

We are not empty careerists - I run my own business, which does not make much money, but does make me very happy. I get to pass on my values and knowledge and aesthetics to the next generation, and the one after that. I love it when the kids "get it," and appreciate what I do, and I'm still glad that those kids are not my own.

I love a quiet house. I love the ability to travel, and write, and be autonomous, and not have blood ties to the future. I love my freedom. I know that I am missing out on something profound, but there is a great profundity in how I choose to live, and I would not change it for the world.

Just because you find fulfillment in children (good for you, by the way), does not mean that everyone else does. Those folks you know who regret their decision may have made the wrong decision for themselves, but I have older friends who are very happy without kids - granted we're all a bit eccentric, but we are self-defined, travel a lot, very creative, and we lead lives that are fulfilling, just in different ways.

Having children is not the greatest human achievement - that is an outdated bromide, in my opinion. Living well, giving of oneself spiritually, emotionally, intellectually and aesthetically, these are the things that make a difference. This is the true worth of a person.

The biological imperative is fine for some, maybe even most, but definitely not for all.

This is very true anaesthine,
I have 4 children and have given birth in my teens, twenties and thirties, my career is as a midwife, so everyday I am assisting mothers bring new lives into the world. I find this very fulfilling as a career, however I do not feel that being a mother or a midwife does, will or ever should define who I am as a person they are simply parts of who and what I am. Otherwise when my children grow up and leave home and I retire I may just as well curl up and die! Two of my closest friends are childfree through choice and I applaud them for it. They in return have not judged me for having 4 of them. No one has the right to judge anybody elses life choices.
childfree or parents of 10 beautiful children who's business is it really?

Sometimes I think the world would be much better if i brought forth a child that had a wonderful mix of me and my husband's best qualities. But what a burden on society if the kid had all our worst qualities hahaha :D

Sometimes I think the world would be much better if i brought forth a child that had a wonderful mix of me and my husband's best qualities. But what a burden on society if the kid had all our worst qualities hahaha :D

This is kind of the idea. It's a crapshoot, though. :o And you won't know how yours turn out until way down the line.

I was never fussed about whether or not to have children. I mean, if I got pregnant, then cool, and if not, well my life would be equally fulfilled. Of course, I am pregnant now and am sort of seeing the advantages of childlessness a little more clearly! Before anyone thinks anything though, can I just say that I am going to bring up my kid responsibly and love it and care for it and all that jazz, it isn't going to turn into an ASBO-kid.

BUt as far as I can see, of course it is your own personal decision over whether or not to have kids. My oldest sister and her husband are definately not planning on kids, my other two older sisters are focusing on careers, and my brother wants them someday. My best friend is going to have her ooterus/womb removed when she's about 22, she's that adamant she doesn't want kids.
I think it's far worse to have kids because it's what people expect you to do, or because you weren't careful enough than to not have them at all.

My best friend is going to have her ooterus/womb removed when she's about 22, she's that adamant she doesn't want kids.

I'd be very surprised if she could find a doctor who would do this. It's unethical, no matter how badly she thinks she wants it done. People do change their minds, sometimes, for various reasons. You really never know how your life will change. It would be very unwise to take such a drastic step at such a young age.

I'm sure there are lots of people who were sure they never wanted kids until they met someone they really wanted to become a parent with, or just changed their minds, just as I'm sure that every parent has times when they wish they hadn't had children. No matter what you choose, you are probably going to have times when you second-guess yourself.

My best friend is going to have her ooterus/womb removed when she's about 22, she's that adamant she doesn't want kids.


yikes - Pregs is right, no doctor would ethically perform that surgery for that reason.

You need your womb for other things than making babies, you know.

yikes - Pregs is right, no doctor would ethically perform that surgery for that reason.

You need your womb for other things than making babies, you know.

What other things?

We need to stop having so many kids. Maybe that will slow down the rapid decay of the earth.

gosh i was shocked at the poll choices... they all seem to be so PRO CHILD... like being child free is a curse or a disease!!! HAAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! the question is - should the child free people forgive the ones with children? I don't see how you could even see "Selfish" as an option for the non breeding, freedom loving, perhaps even more responsible people who choose not to bring children into this world... have you had a look around? :confused::confused::confused:

oh and... i like how people think that kids are supposed to be a ticket to fulfillment... haahah... if you are not fulfilled as is sounds to me like you have nothing to give to that child...

the person who started the poll - seems to me - jealous of child free people, judgmental, and probably somewhat miserable with major regrets and hence created a very strange view of things in order to justify their actions, position, and structure.

Furthermore... any idiot can make a baby... and it is sad that some do so before they have found any fulfillment on their own. to think that you could judge a person just because they don't want to make a baby... is actually hilarious in a sad kind of way. :confused:

We need to stop having so many kids. Maybe that will slow down the rapid decay of the earth.

We need to stop eating so much meat. Maybe that will slow down the rapid decay of the earth.

gosh i was shocked at the poll choices... they all seem to be so PRO CHILD... like being child free is a curse or a disease!!! HAAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! the question is - should the child free people forgive the ones with children? I don't see how you could even see "Selfish" as an option for the non breeding, freedom loving, perhaps even more responsible people who choose not to bring children into this world... have you had a look around? :confused::confused::confused:

oh and... i like how people think that kids are supposed to be a ticket to fulfillment... haahah... if you are not fulfilled as is sounds to me like you have nothing to give to that child...

the person who started the poll - seems to me - jealous of child free people, judgmental, and probably somewhat miserable with major regrets and hence created a very strange view of things in order to justify their actions, position, and structure.

Furthermore... any idiot can make a baby... and it is sad that some do so before they have found any fulfillment on their own. to think that you could judge a person just because they don't want to make a baby... is actually hilarious in a sad kind of way. :confused:

You sound really defensive. Are people already giving you a hard time because you're not barefoot and pregnant with a shiny gold ring on your finger? Yikes... you're much younger than I am and I'm only just now barely mature enough to handle it. And I've been married for a dozen years, a parent over half of that time. What was so pro-child about the poll? Did you miss the option to vote that you regret having children? And how have the vast majority of people voted?

The thing that makes child-free zealots sound stupid is the way they rant against the very existence of children, totally forgetting that it's a temporary state and that they were once children too. I'm not saying we have any ranters here, but they always manage to pop up in conversations like this. I predict this thread is going to go south very soon.

Would any of you child-free folks like to babysit? Just for an afternoon? My kids are actually delightful and well-mannered, and they love museums. I wish I could just borrow them, sometimes, instead of having to endure the really awful parts too. But I'm willing to loan them out if anyone wants to spend some time reconnecting with their childhood. It's fun.

Read through this thread, I found it shocking, what is the world coming to? Married women without children. That is what you are built for and that’s why you marry men, to have babies. To cook and clean and look after the home for your man and have some children to keep you busy during the day until you have to cook the dinner for your husband for when he comes home. No wonder the world is in the mess it is now, women don’t understand the value of being at home and being mothers.

I found this picture, look how happy she is looking after the home and stuff! She so much better with a baby under her arm!
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k238/morrisseysolo/240747832_610d3d846c.jpg






(tongue in cheek post of the week):p
good job I know you're joking ;)

We need to stop eating so much meat. Maybe that will slow down the rapid decay of the earth.





You sound really defensive. Are people already giving you a hard time because you're not barefoot and pregnant with a shiny gold ring on your finger? Yikes... you're much younger than I am and I'm only just now barely mature enough to handle it. And I've been married for a dozen years, a parent over half of that time. What was so pro-child about the poll? Did you miss the option to vote that you regret having children? And how have the vast majority of people voted?

The thing that makes child-free zealots sound stupid is the way they rant against the very existence of children, totally forgetting that it's a temporary state and that they were once children too. I'm not saying we have any ranters here, but they always manage to pop up in conversations like this. I predict this thread is going to go south very soon.

Would any of you child-free folks like to babysit? Just for an afternoon? My kids are actually delightful and well-mannered, and they love museums. I wish I could just borrow them, sometimes, instead of having to endure the really awful parts too. But I'm willing to loan them out if anyone wants to spend some time reconnecting with their childhood. It's fun.
:) I teach young children. i actually really, really love children, I just dunno if I want any of my own. I'd have to be very, very, very sure that both hubby and I really wanted a child before I even considered it. I see waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many unwanted children at school, I'm afraid.

Personally i want childern- may change my mind when i grow older but i would never hold it against someone if they didn't have childern.:confused: I don't understand why anyone would.

because they are narrow minded, thick, foloowing the crowd (societies expectations), and jealous but can;t admit it.

gosh i was shocked at the poll choices... they all seem to be so PRO CHILD... like being child free is a curse or a disease!!! HAAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! the question is - should the child free people forgive the ones with children? I don't see how you could even see "Selfish" as an option for the non breeding, freedom loving, perhaps even more responsible people who choose not to bring children into this world... have you had a look around? :confused::confused::confused:

oh and... i like how people think that kids are supposed to be a ticket to fulfillment... haahah... if you are not fulfilled as is sounds to me like you have nothing to give to that child...

the person who started the poll - seems to me - jealous of child free people, judgmental, and probably somewhat miserable with major regrets and hence created a very strange view of things in order to justify their actions, position, and structure.

Furthermore... any idiot can make a baby... and it is sad that some do so before they have found any fulfillment on their own. to think that you could judge a person just because they don't want to make a baby... is actually hilarious in a sad kind of way. :confused:

the two most sensible posts of thw whole thread.
apart fromt he oen about someones friend hasving all her babay making bits taken awaya t 22, it aint gonna happen, believe me ive been BEGGING the docs to do this to me since i was 20, and they still won't... :mad:

:) I teach young children. i actually really, really love children, I just dunno if I want any of my own. I'd have to be very, very, very sure that both hubby and I really wanted a child before I even considered it. I see waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many unwanted children at school, I'm afraid.

this is another point that pisses me off immensly, why havea child and then make it feel sorry for being alive... that is just F***ing nasty and unfair, i'll bet anything that most people if not all who CHOOSE not to have them would make much better parents than the majority that do.
(pretty obvious really, as we are intelligent enough to make the decison in the first place, (and before i get flamed im not saying its 'unintelligent' to have them.. you know what i mean, i hope :)))

oh and... i like how people think that kids are supposed to be a ticket to fulfillment... haahah... if you are not fulfilled as is sounds to me like you have nothing to give to that child...

the person who started the poll - seems to me - jealous of child free people, judgmental, and probably somewhat miserable with major regrets and hence created a very strange view of things in order to justify their actions, position, and structure.

Furthermore... any idiot can make a baby... and it is sad that some do so before they have found any fulfillment on their own. to think that you could judge a person just because they don't want to make a baby... is actually hilarious in a sad kind of way. :confused:

So true, everything you said. This part in particular seems true to me, in view of my friends who have had kids. My only friends who are really happy as parents are those who took their time to decide, and who had very full lives before they jumped into the biggest decision they could possibly ever make.

Your life changes forever, and YOU change forever as well. If you're not happy and not doing things that give you a reason to get up in the morning before you become a parent, I think you end up totally losing yourself when suddenly the reason you get up in the morning is to take care of a baby. Then if the worst happens, you end up living for your children and not yourself, and 100% of your happiness is dependent on them. That's not fair to you or your children.

I don't think it is so easy to say "I am fulfilled now" so I will have a baby now or "I'm happy now" so I'll have a baby becasue I am happy. Thats just too black/white a statement. Finding fulfillment/happiness through your own children should not be viewed as meaning that you were lacking in something before you had children.

My life is much richer now because I had children...but I still experience all the same emotions - unhappiness, unfulfillment. I don't think anyone can ever be in the 'perfect' place. Life always brings something unexpected.

I'd be very surprised if she could find a doctor who would do this. It's unethical, no matter how badly she thinks she wants it done. People do change their minds, sometimes, for various reasons. You really never know how your life will change. It would be very unwise to take such a drastic step at such a young age.

I'm sure there are lots of people who were sure they never wanted kids until they met someone they really wanted to become a parent with, or just changed their minds, just as I'm sure that every parent has times when they wish they hadn't had children. No matter what you choose, you are probably going to have times when you second-guess yourself.

I assumed it would just be a hysterectomy, or an operation similar to that? It's not something I thinks a great idea, just in case she changes her mind. Personally I'd like to keep the choice, but I'm just too indecisive...

the person who started the poll - seems to me - jealous of child free people, judgmental, and probably somewhat miserable with major regrets and hence created a very strange view of things in order to justify their actions, position, and structure.


But she does not have children, I take it you mean Bogdana?

But she does not have children, I take it you mean Bogdana?

yeah bogs started it. she doesnt have children


Suparni, you mustve misunderstood.

We humans face two problems of desperate importance. The first is our global ecological plight. The second is our difficulty acknowledging the first.

Despite increasing climate change coverage, environmental writers remain reluctant to discuss the full scope and severity of the global dilemma we've created. Many fear sounding alarmist, but there is an alarm to sound and the time for reticence is over.

We've outgrown the planet and need radical action to avert unspeakable consequences. This - by a huge margin - has become humanity's greatest challenge.

If we've altered the climate, it should come as no surprise that we have damaged other natural systems. From deforestation to collapsing fisheries, desertification, the global spread of chemical toxins, ocean dead zones, and the death of coral reefs, an array of interrelated declines is evidence of the breadth of our impact.

Add the depletion of finite resources such as oil and ground-water, and the whole of the challenge upon us emerges.

Barring decisive action, we are marching, heads down, toward global ecological collapse.

Web of life

We're dismantling the web of life, the support system upon which all species depend. We could have very well entered the "sixth mass extinction"; the fifth having wiped out the dinosaurs.

Human activity is threatening the web of life, warns Mr Feeney
Though we like to imagine we are different from other species, we humans are not exempt from the threats posed by ecological degradation.

Analysts worry, for example, about the future of food production. Climate change-induced drought and the depletion of oil and aquifers - resources on which farming and food distribution depend - could trigger famine on an unprecedented scale.

Billions could die. At the very least, we risk our children inheriting a bleak world, empty of the richness of life we take for granted.

Alarmist? Yes, but realistically so.

The most worrisome aspect of this ecological decline is the convergence in time of so many serious problems. Issues such as oil and aquifer depletion and climate change are set to reach crisis points within decades.

Biodiversity loss is equally problematic. As a result of their ecological interdependence, the extinction of species can trigger cascade effects whereby impacts suddenly and unpredictably spread. We're out of our league, influencing systems we don't understand.

One thing is certain: continued inaction or half-hearted efforts will be of no help - we're at a turning point in human history

Any of these problems could disrupt society. The possibility of them occurring together is enough to worry even the most optimistic among rational observers.

Some credible analyses conclude we've postponed action too long to avoid massive upheaval and the best we can do now is to soften the blow. Others hold out hope of averting catastrophe, though not without tough times ahead.

One thing is certain: continued inaction or half-hearted efforts will be of no help - we're at a turning point in human history.

Though few seem willing to confront the facts, it's no secret how we got here. We simply went too far. The growth which once measured our species' success inevitably turned deadly.

Unceasing economic growth, increasing per capita resource consumption, and global population growth have teamed with our reliance on finite reserves of fossil energy to exceed the Earth's absorptive and regenerative capacities.

Getting a grip

We are now in "overshoot"; our numbers and levels of consumption having exceeded the Earth's capacity to sustain us for the long-term.

Many regions are experiencing the strain of water shortages

And as we remain in overshoot, we further erode the Earth's ability to support us.

Inevitably, our numbers will come down, whether voluntarily or through such natural means as famine or disease.

So what can get us out of this mess? First comes awareness. Those in a position to inform must shed fears of alarmism and embrace the truth.

More specifically, we need ecological awareness. For instance, we must "get" that we are just one among millions of interdependent species.

It's imperative we reduce personal resource consumption. The relocalisation movement promoted by those studying oil depletion is a powerful strategy in that regard.

We need a complete transition to clean, renewable energy. It can't happen overnight, but reliance on non-renewable energy is, by definition, unsustainable.

But there is a caveat: abundant clean energy alone will not end our problems. There remains population growth which increases consumption of resources other than energy.

The demand for more goods means we need more energy

We have to rethink the corporate economic growth imperative. On a finite planet, the physical component of economic growth cannot continue forever.

In fact, it has gone too far already. As a promising alternative, the field of ecological economics offers the "steady state economy".

We must end world population growth, then reduce population size. That means lowering population numbers in industrialised as well as developing nations.

Scientists point to the population-environment link. But today's environmentalists avoid the subject more than any other ecological truth. Their motives range from the political to a misunderstanding of the issue.

Neither justifies hiding the truth because total resource use is the product of population size and per capita consumption. We have no chance of solving our environmental predicament without reducing both factors in the equation.

Fortunately, expert consensus tells us we can address population humanely by solving the social problems that fuel it.

Implementing these actions will require us all to become activists, insisting our leaders base decisions not on corporate interests but on the health of the biosphere.

Let's make the effort for today's and tomorrow's children.

John Feeney PhD is an environmental writer and activist in Boulder, Colorado, US. His online project is growthmadness.org

The Green Room, Monday 5th November 2007
The Green Room is a series of opinion pieces on environmental topics running weekly on the BBC News website

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7078857.stm

gosh i was shocked at the poll choices... they all seem to be so PRO CHILD... like being child free is a curse or a disease!!! HAAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! the question is - should the child free people forgive the ones with children? I don't see how you could even see "Selfish" as an option for the non breeding, freedom loving, perhaps even more responsible people who choose not to bring children into this world... have you had a look around? :confused::confused::confused:
they aren't pro child. they are things i have heard and read. its reality, baby, thats what people are thinking.
oh and... i like how people think that kids are supposed to be a ticket to fulfillment... haahah... if you are not fulfilled as is sounds to me like you have nothing to give to that child...

the person who started the poll - seems to me - jealous of child free people, judgmental, and probably somewhat miserable with major regrets and hence created a very strange view of things in order to justify their actions, position, and structure.
Furthermore... any idiot can make a baby... and it is sad that some do so before they have found any fulfillment on their own. to think that you could judge a person just because they don't want to make a baby... is actually hilarious in a sad kind of way. :confused:

Suparni don't you read anything carefully! The very first post talks about the website "no kidding" and how I am child free.
And besides the choices for voting are not strange views at all people LITERALLY will feel that way and voice it to me. Maybe you have been sheltered from reality. I am young and child free and I have no regrets of that so far! now i have to go to school. toodles!:guitar:

hey pregs, with the right amount of liquid benadryl, i can babysit ANYONE'S kids :p

Hey pregs, with the right amount of liquid benadryl, i can babysit ANYONE'S kids :p

You won't need the benadryl, they're fun. But I won't make you do it. I'm not bringing them to Philly or anything.

Seriously, I would love to be an aunt. My sister's having a baby. I'm kind of hoping it will be a girl, because I have only boys. It would be fun to buy pretty little dresses and sweaters and little mary jane sandals and comb her hair. Like a doll.

Or I could just go buy a doll.

You won't need the benadryl, they're fun. But I won't make you do it. I'm not bringing them to Philly or anything.

Seriously, I would love to be an aunt. My sister's having a baby. I'm kind of hoping it will be a girl, because I have only boys. It would be fun to buy pretty little dresses and sweaters and little mary jane sandals and comb her hair. Like a doll.

Or I could just go buy a doll.

I dunno, I get the feeling "they are fun" for some people and not others. Pregs you seem (at least to me) to have a bit more of the maternal instinct going on than many of the rest of us.

In regards to my being defensive, well - it was a stupid question if you ask me, the options for response seemed quite surprising and limited to me... thats all.

I don't necessarily feel pressure to have children, because at some point (after babysitting in fact) I found myself jumping for joy and relief that I am an aunt and not a mom... but yes, when I say "I am pretty sure that I do not want to have kids," the response from other women is soooo often the same thing... a little shocked jump in their energy and then the inevitable "Oh don't say that." As if I were saying some curse. And older men always say "Oh you still have time, how old are you?" At which point I am like :sick::sick::sick: always the same crap remarks.
thats all.
That is what it is like around here. Believe me, I know because I am a 31 year old female and baby free.... you never see that side of people and society because you did what they expect of you. That has been my experience so far with the vast majority of people on long island. NYC is a different story often.

Suparni Maybe you have been sheltered from reality.


maybe - no er... obviously you don't know jack shit about me if you think I have been sheltered from reality. I am laughing out loud cause I wonder just how much of the world you have seen - while you run your mouth off suggesting that kind of thing. And I still think your poll options are twisted... and yes I did read it... maybe you just can't see it from any point of view but your own...

why do you think so many of the options got 0 votes? Because they are twisted and you seem to be the only one who could come up with those options - twisted.

and yes, I realize you are young - its obvious.

But she does not have children, I take it you mean Bogdana?

yes I realized that after I typed it but decided to keep it there because one does not have to have kids in order to be sculpted and influenced by that general mindset of society and the crowd. It is an unfortunate thing that these basic ideas are passed onto little children even... as our mothers buy us baby dolls to take care of in preparation and give boys toy soldiers and toy guns to play with in preparation.

It is a mindset that is completely influenced by a "preset" in us biologically so that we reproduce I would say... and that is obviously not needed as much as it once was.

One does not have to have kids to have been conditioned by this. (Its kind of like the working class republicans...)

maybe - no er... obviously you don't know jack shit about me if you think I have been sheltered from reality. I am laughing out loud cause I wonder just how much of the world you have seen - while you run your mouth off suggesting that kind of thing. And I still think your poll options are twisted... and yes I did read it... maybe you just can't see it from any point of view but your own...

why do you think so many of the options got 0 votes? Because they are twisted and you seem to be the only one who could come up with those options - twisted.

and yes, I realize you are young - its obvious.

well what other options would you have suggested?

bogs isnt really that much younger than you....

well what other options would you have suggested?

bogs isnt really that much younger than you....

I would not have suggested the poll at all... but clearly the options that got a 0 voting are not viable options are they?

In terms of my calling bogs young... read what she wrote to me? It was a response to her positioning herself as a young childfree person and then calling me sheltered. I don't think she sounds very expererienced and I don't think she should be running around calling me sheltered... thats all nugz.. nice of you to be concerned.

I don't like the poll at all actually... but the poll options about selfishness and missing out are clearly not balanced by something like "people who have children and can't afford them on so many levels weigh the society down and eventually drain my tax dollars" etc etc... because that is the other extreme.... and only one extreme is represented here... revealing the general mindset and influence of society on the person who made the poll... in my view.... and yes I will challenge that societal view... even if I like the person reflecting it... which I did until bogs decided that she would consider herself close enough to me that she could call me sheltered...

I would not have suggested the poll at all... but clearly the options that got a 0 voting are not viable options are they?

In terms of my calling bogs young... read what she wrote to me? It was a response to her positioning herself as a young childfree person and then calling me sheltered. I don't think she sounds very expererienced and I don't think she should be running around calling me sheltered... thats all nugz.. nice of you to be concerned.

I don't like the poll at all actually... but the poll options about selfishness and missing out are clearly not balanced by something like "people who have children and can't afford them on so many levels weigh the society down and eventually drain my tax dollars" etc etc... because that is the other extreme.... and only one extreme is represented here... revealing the general mindset and influence of society on the person who made the poll... in my view.... and yes I will challenge that societal view... even if I like the person reflecting it... which I did until bogs decided that she would consider herself close enough to me that she could call me sheltered...

i dunno. i think we just interpreted the options differently. i didnt get the impression that the person who started the poll was on the "wanting to have children" side. or at least saying in any way that having children is "the way to go." especially after reading the original post that went with it. i think maybe you are reading too much into it? i think its pretty obvious what the motive of this poll is, especially after reading through the whole thread. at least it is to me.

i've got a banana

i dunno. i think we just interpreted the options differently.

I can agree with this much.

whats wrong with you women? Bloody Smiths fans! Get breeding....look how funny they are!

F_CfZTpq_QQ

-0xlJYRzYOM

eBu8ssZR9aM

yWDTG35SFgA

4MEITg-OZ2U

hours of fun!!!!

maybe - no er... obviously you don't know jack shit about me if you think I have been sheltered from reality. I am laughing out loud cause I wonder just how much of the world you have seen - while you run your mouth off suggesting that kind of thing. And I still think your poll options are twisted... and yes I did read it... maybe you just can't see it from any point of view but your own...

why do you think so many of the options got 0 votes? Because they are twisted and you seem to be the only one who could come up with those options - twisted.

and yes, I realize you are young - its obvious.
I never understood why people on here had distaste for you, but now I understand completely. You're the one 'running your mouth off' and I have reason to believe that most people who know me and then read what you say think you're making a bit of an ass out of yourself. jeebus. If you did some research on the subject just on the internet you'll see that people are taken aback by comments like "its selfish to not have children". its more common than you think.
i dunno. i think we just interpreted the options differently. i didnt get the impression that the person who started the poll was on the "wanting to have children" side. or at least saying in any way that having children is "the way to go." especially after reading the original post that went with it. i think maybe you are reading too much into it? i think its pretty obvious what the motive of this poll is, especially after reading through the whole thread. at least it is to me.
right on i was merely talking about the choice not to have children and how society views it.
Its hard to believe Suparni and I have the same view but she's trying to make me look bad?
i've got a banana
its better with peanut butter

i've got a banana
and a cat (and kitten too very soon :) )

i've got a banana

its better with peanut butter

This is so true. Just today I was making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and as I stirred the peanut butter I lamented the lack of bananas in our house. We had some last week, but we ate them all. A banana with peanut butter and a yogurt makes such a nice lunch.

I would not have suggested the poll at all... but clearly the options that got a 0 voting are not viable options are they?

If my mama were a member of this forum, she would have asked 'I hope it's a multiple choice poll?' :p

I don't like the poll at all actually... but the poll options about selfishness and missing out are clearly not balanced by something like "people who have children and can't afford them on so many levels weigh the society down and eventually drain my tax dollars" etc etc... because that is the other extreme.... and only one extreme is represented here... revealing the general mindset and influence of society on the person who made the poll... in my view.... and yes I will challenge that societal view... even if I like the person reflecting it... which I did until bogs decided that she would consider herself close enough to me that she could call me sheltered...

It seems to me that you've shot the messenger. This is a society where not having children is a sacrilege, because, as we all know, uteri are there to be put to some use. It's not Bogdana's fault she noticed this trend. However, most people on Solo feel differently or don't want to state how they really feel about this (:p).

After reading some of the opinions in this survey, I am sort of surprised at the content! As for myself, I underwent an ectopic pregnancy in 1993 and I am now unable and basically too old to have children anyway (almost 46.) My mother had me at age 38 and back then it was considered risky. I do not believe it is *selfish* for a couple to decide not to have children. No one (except the Bible beaters) say we HAVE to procreate. I have a married friend who never wanted children either and she is about my age. It really depends on the people involved. I admit, NOW, I really feel sort of sad when I see mothers with their children at the store or something. Like I've missed out. Can't change anything now!

If my mama were a member of this forum, she would have asked 'I hope it's a multiple choice poll?' :p



It seems to me that you've shot the messenger. This is a society where not having children is a sacrilege, because, as we all know, uteri are there to be put to some use. It's not Bogdana's fault she noticed this trend. However, most people on Solo feel differently or don't want to state how they really feel about this (:p).

Biologically, that is exactly what your uterus is for. You're free to ignore the biological imperative. Why do people make out like they're being persecuted for choosing not to have children? Because your in-laws won't shut up about "when are you gonna have babeeees?????" at family events? Guess what? My inlaws won't shut up over about nine or ten different issues at family gatherings. Having relatives is a lose-lose, they pick on everybody. Get used to it. If you did have kids, they'd bitch about how young or how old you were when you had them, how many or few you have, what you're dressing them in, what you're letting them play with, what you're feeding them..... I empathize with you.

At least, I'm fairly sure, we all share in relatives bitching about what jobs we have, how we spend our money, what we're wearing... we're on the same side, people.

Down with in-laws. And nosy friends. And coworkers.

I'm going to go sit in my closet, alone, and play Morrissey on my iPod. He never gives me a hard time.

I sense a Civil War.....

some people have the choice taken away from them, some people long to be parents, long to give unconditional love and get it back, some poeple have that choice snatched from thm. by gods twisted hand or whatever sick forces control this kind of shit if it does at all. fuck knows... :tears: :tears: :tears:

I sense a Civil War.....

i got the hard hats.

Why do people make out like they're being persecuted for choosing not to have children?

Nobody has been killed because of it, yet :eek:

However, nobody can claim that those people can live their lives without a certain stigma.

I never understood why people on here had distaste for you, but now I understand completely.

well that seems pretty bitchy and low of you... there you go - I used to argue like that in 1st grade.

http://www.stephenrahn.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/02/catfight.jpg???


Cmon ladies... we're all in the same boat :)

http://www.stephenrahn.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/02/catfight.jpg???


Cmon ladies... we're all in the same boat :)

hehehe... well I would have readily admitted that perhaps i was shooting the messenger, or perhaps calling attention to the fact that there are more messages she could choose from... but that comment was pretty lame and I am not going to take that without calling it what it is... childish and petty fighting style.... :)

Nobody has been killed because of it, yet :eek:

However, nobody can claim that those people can live their lives without a certain stigma.

To be honest, now that I think about it no one besides my MIL has ever actually given me a hard time for choosing not to have kids and I'm pretty vocal about it. (Or at least I am if someone asks me if I have children - the answer is usually a very emphatic NOOOOOOOOO. :p) Like Preggers said even if you have children then your meddling in-laws (if they are the type) will just switch from bugging you about having them to bugging you about how you raise them. Quite frankly I couldn't give a sh*t what my MIL thinks about anything at all, and I certainly don't give her the power over me to make me feel bad for not providing her with grandchildren. Her happiness is not my job.

However, the annoying thing about it is the fact that most of the time you are expected to explain yourself if you're married with no children. If you have children, no one asks you why you bothered. And, I don't think married men have it any easier than women when it comes to this question. My husband has to explain himself more often than I do, and he absolutely feels that most of the time the people prying as to why we don't have kids are doing so out of a hint of jealousy over his child free status. :rolleyes: I don't know if this is always true, but I don't doubt that sometimes it is.

My husband has to explain himself more often than I do, and he absolutely feels that most of the time the people prying as to why we don't have kids are doing so out of a hint of jealousy over his child free status. :rolleyes: I don't know if this is always true, but I don't doubt that sometimes it is.

Mmm... could be. Sometimes. But it passes. And then comes back again later.:D

What other things?

Damn, I only just got back online, so this answer is a little late. Still, it's good information to have:

There is plenty of evidence that uterine contractions play an important role in orgasm. Women who have had hysterectomies often have a much more difficult time reaching climax than women who have not.

Any woman contemplating prophylactic hysterectomy is going way too far in her pursuit of birth-control. There are plenty of other methods that are less destructive.

i got the hard hats.

Does this mean we have to pick sides?
I have banners to make up.

Any woman contemplating prophylactic hysterectomy is going way too far in her pursuit of birth-control. There are plenty of other methods that are less destructive.

Such as not shaving her armpits? :D

If only society viewed this issue like the majority on -solo do (or how we 'answered' the poll, at least)


Believe me... imagine spending your baby's first birthday watching 9/11 happen, wondering whether you've made a very grave mistake bringing an innocent child into this cesspit. :o

I lived it too (w/a 1 yr old) and had those same feelings of despair- I'll never forget it.

Damn, I only just got back online, so this answer is a little late. Still, it's good information to have:

There is plenty of evidence that uterine contractions play an important role in orgasm. Women who have had hysterectomies often have a much more difficult time reaching climax than women who have not.

Any woman contemplating prophylactic hysterectomy is going way too far in her pursuit of birth-control. There are plenty of other methods that are less destructive.

That’s not entirely true. The uterus plays an important role in uterine contractions. The rest of your lower pelvic muscles can still contract. In women with partial hysterectomies (uterus only), some notice a difference in orgasm and some don’t. Also, over time, the ability to orgasm can and does improve for those who have problems--some even say they’re ‘better’ after surgery. I had a partial (emergency) and haven’t noticed any difference whatsoever. I'm lucky in that regard.

I think it’s ludicrous for someone to have a hysterectomy as means of birth control. What doctor would perform that?! And there are plenty of complications during (nerve damage, death!, etc.) and after surgery (incontinance, gastro/cardiovascular problems, etc.) that could happen. I’ve heard of them being performed as a preventative measure if someone has uterine cancer in the family, pre-cancerous cells, or endometriosis, etc. But as a birth control method? –that’s just stupid- just as well, those people shouldn’t reproduce with thinking like that.

On topic, this thread is totally and literally “CHOICE”. I always wanted and do have kids, but I would never think I’m better than someone who doesn’t have them or doesn’t want them. I honestly respect people who can honestly say, feel and know that they don’t want children. If you do want kids, you must overcome any selfish ways first. Two of my friends said they’d never have kids because they were “too selfish” and they were – but they waited, 'grew up' and eventually had children (one adopted) and they are wonderful mothers. We all waited until our early 30’s to start. Many of here have plenty of time to think about it. People can be so rude and insensitive about it (strangers, family, cafeteria workers :p, etc) so I suggest you prepare some short but sweet comebacks :)

I just got back from my weekly writing class. One woman read an essay about how she definitely does not want to be a mother. Another read an essay about her agonizing 10-year battle with infertility, after having a one-year-old child die of the measles years ago, when she was still living in Africa.

Why the hell is it always this way? Seriously, if any of you devoutly child-free women would like to earn some enormous Karma points, be a surrogate mom for a woman who can't carry a baby of her own. They will most like use the parents' egg and sperm, so it won't even be your biological child. Being pregnant is not that bad, really it isn't. If I could carry another child, I would seriously consider volunteering to be a surrogate. But I can't. There couldn't possibly be a greater act of charity, or a bigger gift you could give.

I just got back from my weekly writing class. One woman read an essay about how she definitely does not want to be a mother. Another read an essay about her agonizing 10-year battle with infertility, after having a one-year-old child die of the measles years ago, when she was still living in Africa.

Why the hell is it always this way? Seriously, if any of you devoutly child-free women would like to earn some enormous Karma points, be a surrogate mom for a woman who can't carry a baby of her own. They will most like use the parents' egg and sperm, so it won't even be your biological child. Being pregnant is not that bad, really it isn't. If I could carry another child, I would seriously consider volunteering to be a surrogate. But I can't. There couldn't possibly be a greater act of charity, or a bigger gift you could give.

Wow, heavy class tonight.

Re: Surrogacy, here here! :) Bless your heart, Pregs. And my step-sister's...who brought our 2nd daughter into our world. There really is no greater gift. I would do it for someone if I could... there's my lil bit of karma :)

I just got back from my weekly writing class. One woman read an essay about how she definitely does not want to be a mother. Another read an essay about her agonizing 10-year battle with infertility, after having a one-year-old child die of the measles years ago, when she was still living in Africa.

Why the hell is it always this way? Seriously, if any of you devoutly child-free women would like to earn some enormous Karma points, be a surrogate mom for a woman who can't carry a baby of her own. They will most like use the parents' egg and sperm, so it won't even be your biological child. Being pregnant is not that bad, really it isn't. If I could carry another child, I would seriously consider volunteering to be a surrogate. But I can't. There couldn't possibly be a greater act of charity, or a bigger gift you could give.

This might sound strange to you, because I know your post sounds strange to me... am I the only one who noticed that there are MORE THAN enough children with no parents or positive influence in their lives to care for and nourish them in this world? :confused::confused::confused:

It seems kind of egocentric to me that people get so very set on their own genes - it seems like it is for themselves then, to carry on something of themselves... rather than sharing love and providing care and giving. I just don't see how it is necessary when you can surely provide care for somebody who is already here and doesn't have any.

Granted I haven't researched it... but it seems pretty obvious having just walked around a bit...

This might sound strange to you, because I know your post sounds strange to me... am I the only one who noticed that there are MORE THAN enough children with no parents or positive influence in their lives to care for and nourish them in this world? :confused::confused::confused:

It seems kind of egocentric to me that people get so very set on their own genes - it seems like it is for themselves then, to carry on something of themselves... rather than sharing love and providing care and giving. I just don't see how it is necessary when you can surely provide care for somebody who is already here and doesn't have any.

Granted I haven't researched it... but it seems pretty obvious having just walked around a bit...

It might seem easy on the surface, but in reality it is very expensive and very difficult to adopt a child, from anywhere in the world. If you adopt one from Russia, it takes a year or more and you have to go stay there for something like two or three weeks, plus pay all sorts of fees and bribes. More or less the same for China.

Domestically, it's very expensive, many couple are rendered ineligible due to age, health, or their sexual orientation, or they just can't afford it. [editing to add this example: I have friends were considering adoption. There was a good deal of concern because his high cholesterol score meant that certain agencies wouldn't approve them.] There are also restrictions in some cases based on race. I have a cousin who is most likely Native American, but fortunately his mother signed out of the hospital AMA right after having him. She used a false name, and left no valid contact information. If she'd left any proof that he was native American, my aunt and uncle would not have been permitted to adopt him. And he's now a very accomplished bass player, has been accepted to (I think this is correct) Boston Conservatory, and plays in several jazz groups in Denver.

It's not as simple for most people as it is for Brangelina and Madonna, who can just buy an orphanage and take their pick. There is no longer much stigma against teenage pregnancy or single motherhood in our culture, so women aren't being coerced into giving their babies up for adoption. You tell me whether that's a good or a bad thing.

There is nothing wrong with a loving, caring couple who desperately want a child having one of their own. You shouldn't scoff at that desire -that need- just because you don't share it. Remember, nobody here is criticizing the child-free for their decisions. You've had more empathy here than anything. That's all anyone asks in return.

The wheels were in motion for us with a domestic 'open' adoption (knowing the birthmother) we just so happened to try surrogacy to see what happened (lo and behold...!) I have a few friends who have done open adoptions and there's a lot of paperwork, time and money involved in that too. It's 'priceless' no matter how someone's life is blessed with a child -you can't fault people for how they want that to happen. You'd have to walk a mile in someone's shoes... Pregs said it perfectly.

Remember, nobody here is criticizing the child-free for their decisions. You've had more empathy here than anything. That's all anyone asks in return.

You're right, there's been little open criticizm of people who don't want to have kids on this thread. But there's been a bit of pretentious talking-down-to of people who don't want to have kids, as if their opinions count less when they're having a discussion of things child related. I'm pretty sure Suparni knows that adoption is difficult. All you have to do is watch the news or have one friend who's tried it to know that. But her point still stands - and people find ways to do it all the time and I'm sure the expense is similar to someone spending 10 years on fertility treatments. And directing your comment about surrogacy at people who don't want to have their own children b/c "being pregnant isn't all that bad" is jaw-dropping, as if it's no big deal b/c you have a functioning uterus so why not. Women who decide to do this are heroes, and I'm pretty sure that the pregnancy is the easy part of it. Whether you want to be a mother or not, I think you're pretty much hardwired to not give away the baby you just gave birth to. I imagine it's something you'd never really get over. And if you decide to do it for someone you love, it's incredible, it's awe-inspiring, but it's not the responsibility of all fertile but childfree women. Unfortunately fertility is the luck of the draw for everyone, just like most things health-related.

You're right, there's been little open criticizm of people who don't want to have kids on this thread. But there's been a bit of pretentious talking-down-to of people who don't want to have kids, as if their opinions count less when they're having a discussion of things child related. I'm pretty sure Suparni knows that adoption is difficult. All you have to do is watch the news or have one friend who's tried it to know that. But her point still stands - and people find ways to do it all the time and I'm sure the expense is similar to someone spending 10 years on fertility treatments. And directing your comment about surrogacy at people who don't want to have their own children b/c "being pregnant isn't all that bad" is jaw-dropping, as if it's no big deal b/c you have a functioning uterus so why not. Women who decide to do this are heroes, and I'm pretty sure that the pregnancy is the easy part of it. Whether you want to be a mother or not, I think you're pretty much hardwired to not give away the baby you just gave birth to. I imagine it's something you'd never really get over. And if you decide to do it for someone you love, it's incredible, it's awe-inspiring, but it's not the responsibility of all fertile but childfree women. Unfortunately fertility is the luck of the draw for everyone, just like most things health-related.

But if you don't want children, you shouldn't have a hard time passing the child off, should you? Or are you suggesting that there is such a thing as maternal instinct? I don't believe there is. Primate behavioral research has shown that females learn to mother by being mothered. I don't think humans are any different.

I'm not saying it's your responsibility or duty to offer to carry another woman's child. But there has been lots of talk about how people who do choose to have children are mindless, conformist moos with no regard for the environment and the issue of overpopulation, and no personal identity outside of their role as mother. And I'm not one who has even hinted that people who choose not to have children are shallow and selfish and whatever else is said about them.

I'm not commanding anyone to be a surrogate, I'm just saying that since you're not using it, you might keep an open mind about helping someone else. Or you could donate your eggs. It's a bit more involved than donating blood, yes, but if you truly understood the anguish of women who can't have children, you might have a more open mind about it. Not being able to have children shakes one's very identity as a woman and a human. Whether one believes in evolution or creation, our purpose is to further life. You are very lucky in that you have a choice whether to do it or not. Not everyone has that choice.

Because the subtext of what some of you are saying implies that you believe that not only should you not have children, you don't believe anyone else should either. And that's an unreasonable point of view. It is more natural to want children than not to want them. We are animals, don't forget. Biologically, the only purpose of life is to make more life, however ineptly we manage to do it.

My perspective is somewhat like Corrissey's. I managed to have two healthy children, but only with difficulty. I can't have more, even if I wanted to.

But if you don't want children, you shouldn't have a hard time passing the child off, should you? Or are you suggesting that there is such a thing as maternal instinct? I don't believe there is. Primate behavioral research has shown that females learn to mother by being mothered. I don't think humans are any different.

I'm not saying it's your responsibility or duty to offer to carry another woman's child. But there has been lots of talk about how people who do choose to have children are mindless, conformist moos with no regard for the environment and the issue of overpopulation, and no personal identity outside of their role as mother. And I'm not one who has even hinted that people who choose not to have children are shallow and selfish and whatever else is said about them.

I'm not commanding anyone to be a surrogate, I'm just saying that since you're not using it, you might keep an open mind about helping someone else. Or you could donate your eggs. It's a bit more involved than donating blood, yes, but if you truly understood the anguish of women who can't have children, you might have a more open mind about it. Not being able to have children shakes one's very identity as a woman and a human. Whether one believes in evolution or creation, our purpose is to further life. You are very lucky in that you have a choice whether to do it or not. Not everyone has that choice.

Because the subtext of what some of you are saying implies that you believe that not only should you not have children, you don't believe anyone else should either. And that's an unreasonable point of view. It is more natural to want children than not to want them. We are animals, don't forget. Biologically, the only purpose of life is to make more life, however ineptly we manage to do it.

My perspective is somewhat like Corrissey's. I managed to have two healthy children, but only with difficulty. I can't have more, even if I wanted to.

Personally I think there is a lot more to carrying a child than just being pregnant. I wouldn't know first hand, but it seems to me that carrying another being in your body, inevitably a bond will form and it would be difficult to just pass it on. It seems to me that one's mind could change during that time of pregnancy and it would be very difficult to just pass that child on... at least for me it would.

No, I don't know that it is so hard to adopt - I am not playing dumb. I really don't know much about it and its not my being hypercritical of folks having babies for other people... I just don't think its as easy as you make it sound... thats all. I also don't think a year or two is a long time to wait for a child and I also think that anybody planning to have a baby should be financially secure enough to go through the process of adoption. Just my opinion, please don't continue to attack me for it claiming that I am the one attacking.. I am not, I am simply stating my view and questions.

As for donating eggs... from what I have read, they inject you will all kinds of hormones so as to produce a bunch of eggs at once and then remove them... I hear its not the healthiest process in the world - physically and hormonally.

I also don't think a year or two is a long time to wait for a child and I also think that anybody planning to have a baby should be financially secure enough to go through the process of adoption. Just my opinion, please don't continue to attack me for it claiming that I am the one attacking.. I am not, I am simply stating my view and questions.

As for donating eggs... from what I have read, they inject you will all kinds of hormones so as to produce a bunch of eggs at once and then remove them... I hear its not the healthiest process in the world - physically and hormonally.

Oh, ok. Maybe you're right. From now on, no one is allowed to conceive a child until they have $100,000 stashed in their bank account. That's gonna cut the birthrate way, way down.

And I've already given examples of other reasons why people are denied the option of adoption. You think it's right and good that a couple should be told they can't adopt because the husband's cholesterol runs high? Or because he's significantly older than she is? It's not that easy, it's not easy at all. And it costs a minimum of $25,000, which is not ever covered by any insurance (although you do get to deduct it on your taxes.)

In my class last night, the woman who wrote about not wanting to be a mother was very frank about the decision being based on fear. She's afraid, that it will hurt her emotionally (which it would), that she wouldn't be a good mother (none of us are ever as good as we think we should be), and that it would be as hard for her and cost her as much in missed opportunities as it cost her mother. It's not that she doesn't like cuddling a baby or smelling the top of its head. You sound afraid of having to give up parts of yourself if you became a mother. And you're completely right, you would have to give up huge chunks of yourself.

I'm not trying to be mean or pick on you, I just know so many couples who are devastated and will grieve forever because they can't have children of their own. It just hurts me to hear people be so dismissive of that right and that privilege, and the immense joy being a parent can bring to your life.

I'm not trying to talk you into changing your mind, just trying to help you see things from another perspective and perhaps be more empathetic.

Maybe you could draw a tenuous parallel to gay marriage. Gay couples are told by society that their unions are not valid, not important, not worth a simple legal consideration. And you seem to be telling parents that their parental urges are not valid, and not important.

Never mind. I'm done. I haven't tried to hurt anyone's feelings, just to present a different viewpoint. The response I've heard is: "That doesn't matter, it's not a big deal, you shouldn't be having children anyway. Get over it." You really have no idea. You couldn't possibly. When you can't have children, it's like a death. It is a death. It's the death of those people you hoped to know and love and spend your life with. They just never got a chance to exist. Sometimes that's a literal death, if you get pregnant and the baby dies, sometimes it's purely symbolic, yet no less real.

Not you, Anaesthesine. ;)

Primate behavioral research has shown that females learn to mother by being mothered. I don't think humans are any different.
Yeah, I am saying there's such a thing as maternal instinct, and so did you just now with the above comment. People are mothered, I was mothered, everyone else here who says they don't want to have kids was mothered (or fathered I suppose) so whether it's due to learning from our parents or purely due to hormones, women have maternal instincts. If they don't after they have a baby, the absence of it (ambivalence towards the baby) is part of the diagnosis of post partum depression and it needs to be treated. Also, if they didn't, humans and all other animals whose offspring aren't capable of taking care of themselves at birth wouldn't even exist. Something has to tell them not to walk away from that baby they just had.

So yeah, I think that being a surrogate mother is an amazing, incredible thing to do for someone BECAUSE there's a whole lot more to it than just being pregnant for 9 months and then giving birth. That's one reason why adoption is so hard - birth mothers change their minds after seeing their babies all the time even if they never thought they wanted it the whole time they were pregnant. So I assume that giving up your baby to someone, whether in an adoption or as a surrogate mom for someone would be really painful when it comes to the moment of actually handing it over, not to mention dealing with the consequences of that choice forever.

I'm not saying it's your responsibility or duty to offer to carry another woman's child. But there has been lots of talk about how people who do choose to have children are mindless, conformist moos with no regard for the environment and the issue of overpopulation, and no personal identity outside of their role as mother. And I'm not one who has even hinted that people who choose not to have children are shallow and selfish and whatever else is said about them.

I don't know about anyone else's posts, but all I ever said was that the people I know who have kids who seem to be really happy are people who had their lives on track more or less before, during, and after they had kids.


I'm not commanding anyone to be a surrogate, I'm just saying that since you're not using it, you might keep an open mind about helping someone else. Or you could donate your eggs. It's a bit more involved than donating blood, yes, but if you truly understood the anguish of women who can't have children, you might have a more open mind about it. Not being able to have children shakes one's very identity as a woman and a human. Whether one believes in evolution or creation, our purpose is to further life. You are very lucky in that you have a choice whether to do it or not. Not everyone has that choice.

Because the subtext of what some of you are saying implies that you believe that not only should you not have children, you don't believe anyone else should either. And that's an unreasonable point of view. It is more natural to want children than not to want them. We are animals, don't forget. Biologically, the only purpose of life is to make more life, however ineptly we manage to do it.

I never once implied that no one should have kids just b/c I personally don't want any of my own, and wouldn't take lightly the idea of being a surrogate mother for someone else. :confused:

Again, I'm all for surrogate mothers.... I never said I wouldn't do it either. For the record, I've offered someone before - and immediately realized that I could have just offered to sign up for the most painful experience of my whole life. Thankfully for everyone concerned, it's now a non-issue. But, it's definitely not something I should automatically do just b/c I have a uterus and I'm not "using it."

Oh, ok. Maybe you're right. From now on, no one is allowed to conceive a child until they have $100,000 stashed in their bank account. That's gonna cut the birthrate way, way down.

And I've already given examples of other reasons why people are denied the option of adoption. You think it's right and good that a couple should be told they can't adopt because the husband's cholesterol runs high? Or because he's significantly older than she is? It's not that easy, it's not easy at all. And it costs a minimum of $25,000, which is not ever covered by any insurance (although you do get to deduct it on your taxes.)

In my class last night, the woman who wrote about not wanting to be a mother was very frank about the decision being based on fear. She's afraid, that it will hurt her emotionally (which it would), that she wouldn't be a good mother (none of us are ever as good as we think we should be), and that it would be as hard for her and cost her as much in missed opportunities as it cost her mother. It's not that she doesn't like cuddling a baby or smelling the top of its head. You sound afraid of having to give up parts of yourself if you became a mother. And you're completely right, you would have to give up huge chunks of yourself.

I'm not trying to be mean or pick on you, I just know so many couples who are devastated and will grieve forever because they can't have children of their own. It just hurts me to hear people be so dismissive of that right and that privilege, and the immense joy being a parent can bring to your life.

I'm not trying to talk you into changing your mind, just trying to help you see things from another perspective and perhaps be more empathetic.

Maybe you could draw a tenuous parallel to gay marriage. Gay couples are told by society that their unions are not valid, not important, not worth a simple legal consideration. And you seem to be telling parents that their parental urges are not valid, and not important.

Never mind. I'm done. I haven't tried to hurt anyone's feelings, just to present a different viewpoint. The response I've heard is: "That doesn't matter, it's not a big deal, you shouldn't be having children anyway. Get over it." You really have no idea. You couldn't possibly. When you can't have children, it's like a death. It is a death. It's the death of those people you hoped to know and love and spend your life with. They just never got a chance to exist. Sometimes that's a literal death, if you get pregnant and the baby dies, sometimes it's purely symbolic, yet no less real.

Not you, Anaesthesine. ;)

I understand what you are saying and it seems to me that you are defensive... despite your calling me that.

I just think it is a bit much for anybody to encourage another person to carry a child for 9 months so they can provide another couple with an opportunity to be parents. I think that parting with that being you carried for 9 months could have serious repercussions and unexpected impact and that you should not be so quick to talk about how easy it is to be pregnant etc etc... because I don't think that is the difficult part... the physical part that is.

And 100,000 dollars stashed away is a good start... :eek:

Yeah, I am saying there's such a thing as maternal instinct, and so did you just now with the above comment. People are mothered, I was mothered, everyone else here who says they don't want to have kids was mothered (or fathered I suppose) so whether it's due to learning from our parents or purely due to hormones, women have maternal instincts. If they don't after they have a baby, the absence of it (ambivalence towards the baby) is part of the diagnosis of post partum depression and it needs to be treated. Also, if they didn't, humans and all other animals whose offspring aren't capable of taking care of themselves at birth wouldn't even exist. Something has to tell them not to walk away from that baby they just had.

Actually, no, that wasn't what I said, but I probably didn't go into enough detail. If an animal isn't mothered, it won't know how to mother. It literally won't pick up the crying thing on the floor. It can't nurse the infant unless it observed nursing mother/baby pairs during its life. There have been a bunch of (very inhumane) primate experiments showing this, and I think it's very well demonstrated in human culture.

Postpartum depression isn't an issue of a lack of mothering instinct, it is just depression, same as any other variety, only triggered by the hormonal stress of pregnancy. Whether or not she is a good mother or has good mothering skills doesn't enter into it.


So yeah, I think that being a surrogate mother is an amazing, incredible thing to do for someone BECAUSE there's a whole lot more to it than just being pregnant for 9 months and then giving birth. That's one reason why adoption is so hard - birth mothers change their minds after seeing their babies all the time even if they never thought they wanted it the whole time they were pregnant. So I assume that giving up your baby to someone, whether in an adoption or as a surrogate mom for someone would be really painful when it comes to the moment of actually handing it over, not to mention dealing with the consequences of that choice forever.

I was surprised the idea was met with so much vehemence... almost disgust. I'd gladly be a surrogate if my sister or a close friend needed it, if it were possible. I'd give up a kidney if I knew someone needed it. Every surrogate situation I know of personally was a sister-sister or friend-friend arrangement. I suppose it might be easier that way, if you could 'keep an eye' on the child as it grew up and perhaps take a role in their life, as a godmother or aunt.

I wonder if it is because I am a mother that I would better understand what it is I am giving the couple. Their joy would diminish my emotional discomfort. And perhaps you're stuck on those aspects, while I have a better idea of what would come next, having had (and lost, I have to add) children.

I was surprised the idea was met with so much vehemence... almost disgust. I'd gladly be a surrogate if my sister or a close friend needed it, if it were possible. I'd give up a kidney if I knew someone needed it. Every surrogate situation I know of personally was a sister-sister or friend-friend arrangement. I suppose it might be easier that way, if you could 'keep an eye' on the child as it grew up and perhaps take a role in their life, as a godmother or aunt.

I wonder if it is because I am a mother that I would better understand what it is I am giving the couple. Their joy would diminish my emotional discomfort. And perhaps you're stuck on those aspects, while I have a better idea of what would come next, having had (and lost, I have to add) children.

I certainly did not meet the idea with disgust... that is your perception. In fact, when my sister got cervical cancer (she was sure that she wanted to have kids... always) I offered to be a surrogate - pretty sure that I do not want children even back then. So, having offered to do this (in the end it was not needed as she recovered still capable) I don't see how I could have met this with disgust??? But at the same time bearing a child is no joke and I just don't see how you can suggest the idea to another person - not knowing what kind of impact it could have on that person. It could become an ugly situation very quickly. After I offered to my sister - that night, I was confronted with all kinds of feelings and thoughts about it and the utter relief I felt at not being confronted with that - indicated to me that I don't think I could have gone through with it. Everybody is different and some of us very fragile... fine... its okay for you - but for some people it could create difficulties that they might have to deal with for the rest of their lives... thats all.

well that seems pretty bitchy and low of you... there you go - I used to argue like that in 1st grade.

and you don't think "running your mouth off" qualifies as petty, bitchy and low? The double standards you hold. Your entire first post was a personal attack on imaginary feelings that I did not possess but you decided I did.

Actually, no, that wasn't what I said, but I probably didn't go into enough detail. If an animal isn't mothered, it won't know how to mother. It literally won't pick up the crying thing on the floor. It can't nurse the infant unless it observed nursing mother/baby pairs during its life. There have been a bunch of (very inhumane) primate experiments showing this, and I think it's very well demonstrated in human culture.

I know nothing about primates but I recall reading about experiments where the baby gorillas or chimps were taken from their mothers and they had to bond with either a "soft mother" or a "hard mother" and that they would try to nurse from and cuddle the fake mother even if it was the "hard" one, which actually inflicted pain on the baby. :( But I have observed maiden mares (horses who have never had a foal and in many cases never even seen one) who are terrified and run away from, or try to hurt their foals in the first couple of hours. Once they realize it isn't going to hurt them they relax and let it get close enough to nurse. Again, whether they were taught it somehow or if it's related to pregnancy hormones, it is maternal instinct. Again, maternal instinct is why primates exist at all, b/c if every primate had left their baby, then every primate baby would have died.


Postpartum depression isn't an issue of a lack of mothering instinct, it is just depression, same as any other variety, only triggered by the hormonal stress of pregnancy. Whether or not she is a good mother or has good mothering skills doesn't enter into it.

Not something I have personal experience with obviously, but my degree is in psychology and I distinctly remember ambivalence towards and lack of bonding with the baby as a symptom of postpartum depression (along with a lot of other things).




I was surprised the idea was met with so much vehemence... almost disgust. I'd gladly be a surrogate if my sister or a close friend needed it, if it were possible. I'd give up a kidney if I knew someone needed it. Every surrogate situation I know of personally was a sister-sister or friend-friend arrangement. I suppose it might be easier that way, if you could 'keep an eye' on the child as it grew up and perhaps take a role in their life, as a godmother or aunt.

I wonder if it is because I am a mother that I would better understand what it is I am giving the couple. Their joy would diminish my emotional discomfort. And perhaps you're stuck on those aspects, while I have a better idea of what would come next, having had (and lost, I have to add) children.


No one has said they were disgusted by it. At all. No one said not being able to have kids wasn't painful. What we objected to is the suggestion that it's the responsibility of all childfree women to fix this problem for the infertile ones.

and you don't think "running your mouth off" qualifies as petty, bitchy and low? The double standards you hold. Your entire first post was a personal attack on imaginary feelings that I did not possess but you decided I did.

I disagree. Perhaps my response was more reaction to your lopsided society sculpted poll... I can admit that, but my feelings were not imaginary... (I would appreciate it if the private message folks would come out of the closet and back me up here by the way...) I admit that I reacted a bit and this is because it seems to me that your poll is lopsided with the tiring weight of societal perception of the child free and that only one extreme was was offered in the options... but I have made that clear. So yes, perhaps reaction on my part... but not as low as your fighting tactics by any means - on any day of the week.

Not something I have personal experience with obviously, but my degree is in psychology and I distinctly remember ambivalence towards and lack of bonding with the baby as a symptom of postpartum depression (along with a lot of other things).

But symptoms don't cause the disease, do they? That would suggest the mothers are depressed because they don't feel maternal toward the baby, instead of due to a chemical imbalance that may have been triggered by the hormonal changes of pregnancy and delivery.


No one has said they were disgusted by it. At all. No one said not being able to have kids wasn't painful. What we objected to is the suggestion that it's the responsibility of all childfree women to fix this problem for the infertile ones.

But I never said that. I said that maybe it's something women who don't want their own children should consider doing- I believe I made the comparison to organ donation more than once. This isn't the Handmaid's Tale here, I'm not talking about conscripting wombs. :)

But symptoms don't cause the disease, do they? That would suggest the mothers are depressed because they don't feel maternal toward the baby, instead of due to a chemical imbalance that may have been triggered by the hormonal changes of pregnancy and delivery.

I brought up postpartum depression b/c you said that maternal instinct doesn't exist. One of the symptoms of postpartum is a lack of bonding with the baby. The fact that it is a symptom - i.e. something abnormal - is an indictaton that bonding is expected. You basically implied that you wouldn't feel a bond with a baby you gave birth to (and therefore it wouldn't be hard to give it away).




But I never said that. I said that maybe it's something women who don't want their own children should consider doing- I believe I made the comparison to organ donation more than once. This isn't the Handmaid's Tale here, I'm not talking about conscripting wombs. :)

Yeah, you did say that women should consider it, and Suparni and I both separately said that we not only had considered it but we had offered it to people we cared about.

ETA: a simpler way to put this is, being a surrogate mother has NOTHING to do with whether you want to have your own children or not. So I was shocked that you directed your statement at women who don't want children b/c "pregnancy isn't that bad" and we weren't using our baby plumbing for our own purposes anyway. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

This might sound strange to you, because I know your post sounds strange to me... am I the only one who noticed that there are MORE THAN enough children with no parents or positive influence in their lives to care for and nourish them in this world? :confused::confused::confused:

It seems kind of egocentric to me that people get so very set on their own genes - it seems like it is for themselves then, to carry on something of themselves... rather than sharing love and providing care and giving. I just don't see how it is necessary when you can surely provide care for somebody who is already here and doesn't have any.

Granted I haven't researched it... but it seems pretty obvious having just walked around a bit...

suparni, i was just about to post the same thing, why don't more 'infertile' people adopt? because if the 'urge/need' is THAT BIG then adopting should fill that need... or come darn close.
i have a suspicion they never do it because they selfishly want a baby and you dont always get a baby when adopting... to me this seem RIDICULOUS if you want a child enough then you are not gonna be bothered if its say 3 years... if you can give it a loving stable home and it will give you that child you ;need' then i dont see any problems.

This might sound strange to you, because I know your post sounds strange to me... am I the only one who noticed that there are MORE THAN enough children with no parents or positive influence in their lives to care for and nourish them in this world? :confused::confused::confused:

It seems kind of egocentric to me that people get so very set on their own genes - it seems like it is for themselves then, to carry on something of themselves... rather than sharing love and providing care and giving. I just don't see how it is necessary when you can surely provide care for somebody who is already here and doesn't have any.

Granted I haven't researched it... but it seems pretty obvious having just walked around a bit...

suparni, i was just about to post the same thing, why don't more 'infertile' people adopt? because if the 'urge/need' is THAT BIG then adopting should fill that need... or come darn close.
i have a suspicion they never do it because they selfishly want a baby and you dont always get a baby when adopting... to me this seem RIDICULOUS if you want a child enough then you are not gonna be bothered if its say 3 years... if you can give it a loving stable home and it will give you that child you ;need' then i dont see any problems.

Also Preggers, veyr good point, but to some of us it isn't just that we dont want the children its that we don't want to 'abuse' our bodies by having one.
i;d be much more likely to adopt than reproduce, by choice, if i were ever *god forbid* to change my mind and decide i wanted children, it aint gonna happen n but you know what i mean. :)

suparni, i was just about to post the same thing, why don't more 'infertile' people adopt? because if the 'urge/need' is THAT BIG then adopting should fill that need... or come darn close.
i have a suspicion they never do it because they selfishly want a baby and you dont always get a baby when adopting... to me this seem RIDICULOUS if you want a child enough then you are not gonna be bothered if its say 3 years... if you can give it a loving stable home and it will give you that child you ;need' then i dont see any problems.




I so agree with this... and during those three years why not contribute at the local boys or girls club as a tutor, coach, or whatever... seems if you are longing to be a parent out of overflow rather than out of selfishness... 3 years is not long to be patient and there are plenty of places in society where responsible, loving, overflowing adults are needed.

I so agree with this... and during those three years why not contribute at the local boys or girls club as a tutor, coach, or whatever... seems if you are longing to be a parent out of overflow rather than out of selfishness... 3 years is not long to be patient and there are plenty of places in society where responsible, loving, overflowing adults are needed.

ha, i meant 3 years old, but i acknowledge and agree with your reply... :)

ha, i meant 3 years old, but i acknowledge and agree with your reply... :)

ah ha! right, got it... yeah well that too. :)

No point in having children. Haven't heard of a good reason yet.

No point in having children. Haven't heard of a good reason yet.

hrmmm. how bout...continuation of the human race?

hrmmm. how bout...continuation of the human race?

oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize some folks considered that a good thing. :rolleyes:

hrmmm. how bout...continuation of the human race?

come on NUGZ thats not a good enough reason and you know it... ;)
humans are terribly overrated anyway.

come on NUGZ thats not a good enough reason and you know it... ;)
humans are terribly overrated anyway.

Some are, anyway.

No point in having children. Haven't heard of a good reason yet.

Well here's TWO good reasons! ;)

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u258/almareallymatters/DisneylandParis2007052.jpg

Kid's are AWESOME! :D

Love Alma xxx

Well here's TWO good reasons! ;)

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u258/almareallymatters/DisneylandParis2007052.jpg

They really are adorable.

They really are adorable.

Thanks!...I'm proud to have done my bit for the continuation of the human race! ;)

Love Alma xxx

Also Preggers, veyr good point, but to some of us it isn't just that we dont want the children its that we don't want to 'abuse' our bodies by having one.

Oh, that's the living end. What's wrong with a little self-abuse? :rolleyes: :p

I disagree. Perhaps my response was more reaction to your lopsided society sculpted poll... I can admit that, but my feelings were not imaginary... (I would appreciate it if the private message folks would come out of the closet and back me up here by the way...) I admit that I reacted a bit and this is because it seems to me that your poll is lopsided with the tiring weight of societal perception of the child free and that only one extreme was was offered in the options... but I have made that clear. So yes, perhaps reaction on my part... but not as low as your fighting tactics by any means - on any day of the week.

you're assumptions of me were completely imaginary. This is what you said:
the person who started the poll - seems to me - jealous of child free people, judgmental, and probably somewhat miserable with major regrets and hence created a very strange view of things in order to justify their actions, position, and structure.

you cant just ever plainly admit you jump to conclusions and are wrong about this, but thats fine i see that's where we've been going. I support child free and my post was to bring child free people together and also talk to those with children candidly about their choice to make children and how its affected their lives.
The poll choices were NOT lopsided, for the millionth time... people would never vote them here, because we have free thinking folks who want to have unity in the world when it comes to diversity. But the average normal dumb joe schoe thinks im selfish for not having children. i've been told it once before blatantly and its been insinuated a few times as well.
stop worrying about how we 'fight' and who can use childish terminology and who cant. because you were being defensive and low, too, whether you'll admit it or not, and I don't need you to admit it, I can see it clearly in the way you jump to the pollmaker being jealous of the childfree... when i have no children.

Oh, that's the living end. What's wrong with a little self-abuse? :rolleyes: :p

i wish i had the "ive had kids" excuse about my jellyness because its a damn good and viable one!

From this (five minutes old)...

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u258/almareallymatters/20-03-2008221316.jpg

to this (six years old)...

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u258/almareallymatters/various004.jpg

Lots of thrills and spills along the way...up's...and downs...many amazing adventures...some very steep learning curves...but motherhood really is a miracle! :)

Love Alma xxx

*tries to erase the trauma of a gunkly baby pic*

*fails*

thanks Alma, yet again a mother, reinforces my determination to never go there...
LOL ;)

i think all of your (ie soloists) children are lovely (the ones ive seen). im happy no one seems to be running into loads of trouble (yet, for those of you with girls ;) )

alma what did he weigh, 8 pounds?

*tries to erase the trauma of a gunkly baby pic*

*fails*

thanks Alma, yet again a mother, reinforces my determination to never go there...
LOL ;)

Sorry!...but I thought it would be good to show the harsh realities of childbirth! They did give him a quick dip in the tub after the photo was taken and then he was all soft and cuddly and gorgeous and sweet smelling...honest! :D

Love Alma xxx

i think all of your (ie soloists) children are lovely (the ones ive seen). im happy no one seems to be running into loads of trouble (yet, for those of you with girls ;) )

alma what did he weigh, 8 pounds?

And the rest mate!...he was 10lb...ouch!

He came as a bit of a shock as my daughter was a small baby!

Love Alma xxx

Sorry!...but I thought it would be good to show the harsh realities of childbirth! They did give him a quick dip in the tub after the photo was taken and then he was all soft and cuddly and gorgeous and sweet smelling...honest! :D

Love Alma xxx

hahaha, still find them traumatic,
think i have a child allergy, (no offence)

hahaha, still find them traumatic,
think i have a child allergy, (no offence)

I guess I won't be coming to you when I need a babysitter then? ;) :D

Love Alma xxx

I guess I won't be coming to you when I need a babysitter then? ;) :D

Love Alma xxx

well thats where i have a problem, children seem to LIKE me.. :eek:
its terribly distresssing, i have to try and distract them and then sneak out of the room...
besides you'd have such a huge petrol bill if you did bring em to me for babysitting, you'd never afford to go out again. LOL

well thats where i have a problem, children seem to LIKE me.. :eek:
its terribly distresssing, i have to try and distract them and then sneak out of the room...
besides you'd have such a huge petrol bill if you did bring em to me for babysitting, you'd never afford to go out again. LOL

Oh we parents train our kids to gravitate towards grown-up's we know hate them...it's such fun watching you squirm! ;) :D

I'm off to bed now....my husbands working the night-shift so Dan is snuggled up in my bed...he'll be all warm and cosy and will wrap his little arms around my neck and cuddle me to sleep...bliss! (but I guess the mere thought of that has brought you out in a rash!;))

Night night mate!

Love Alma xxx

you're assumptions of me were completely imaginary. This is what you said:


you cant just ever plainly admit you jump to conclusions and are wrong about this, but thats fine i see that's where we've been going. I support child free and my post was to bring child free people together and also talk to those with children candidly about their choice to make children and how its affected their lives.


very simply... for you... I read the poll, checked the "other please explain" box... posted my feelings, and then went on to read the other comments... including yours - which I read carefully AFTER stating my view in response to the poll options. No, I still don't feel I was being childish and I do feel your poll was lopsided.

The poll choices were NOT lopsided, for the millionth time... people would never vote them here, because we have free thinking folks who want to have unity in the world when it comes to diversity.


Obviously they ARE lopsided or why would the results be so very lopsided with almost every vote going to one of the choices out of 4 and the rest to OTHER? almost 50 votes and the rest of the options get 1 or 0... that is proof of lopsided first off... and secondly I believe that your lopsided poll options are a result of totally unconscious conditioning... the kind people pass on to their kids when they don't know enough about THEMSELVES.

Oh we parents train our kids to gravitate towards grown-up's we know hate them...it's such fun watching you squirm! ;) :D

I'm off to bed now....my husbands working the night-shift so Dan is snuggled up in my bed...he'll be all warm and cosy and will wrap his little arms around my neck and cuddle me to sleep...bliss! (but I guess the mere thought of that has brought you out in a rash!;))

Night night mate!

Love Alma xxx


Hey lottie I hope you are okay...
I use this....
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z221/McBored/126570.jpg
hope it helps ;);)

Wow, this thread has been busy today. What next, at thread for stay-at-home vs. working mothers? Oh please don’t do it… the inbuilt guilt already killz me :p!

I agree that it is not your womanly/human obligation to carry another woman’s child just because you have a working uterus. And if you don’t ever want children, it’s highly unlikely that you’d even consider it. But the fact that some of you have even remotely entertained the idea is heartening. Really. Typically, surrogates are married, mothers themselves (but done having children) and have a job or means of support –financially and “emotionally”. Also, surrogate mother’s rarely change their minds, whether they are related to the baby or not.

Yes, it is a difficult thing to ‘give away’ that child when it’s born, but the surrogate Mom’s knows what they’re getting into. In fact, everyone goes thru extensive medical and psychological evaluations at the very beginning of the process (oh yes, and legal ones!), as well, a lot of agencies have support networks for the surrogate Mom’s. How can ‘giving’ a child away not be emotional -it’s human instinct. It was a bittersweet moment for everyone when we took my daughter home and ‘away’ from my stepsister. She was upset at herself crying because all along she knew it wasn’t “her” baby… but please…hormones alone certainly played a big part. I’m sure it helped that it was my egg and not hers (‘gestational surrogate’). In fact, she would not have agreed to do this if it were her egg –which is understandable. She inspired a friend to be a 'traditional' surrogate for her best friend (another success story). My sis has a very special bond with my daughter and like most surrogates, they do stay in touch with the birth parents although it’s not necessary to do so.

Being a surrogate is a huge commitment and certainly not a decision to be made lightly. In fact, being pregnant is the riskiest health-related thing you can do to your body (not to scare anyone, it's just a fact). Surrogates are a special breed of people whose heart aches for childless couples -they know that they hold a couples hopes and dreams in their hands. You can’t know what it’s like to be a part of the process unless you go through it yourself. Just as those of us who have children can’t put it into words what it means to have a child. But then, we've all wanted one too. I’d love for anyone to know and experience that ultimate love, but I don’t hold it against anyone for not doing it or wanting it. Well, only my twin brother. Joking!! I don't frown upon anyone for 'choosing child-less'. And just think of all the Morrissey shows you can go to!!! :D

This isn’t a call for those of you without kids to become a surrogate, I just wanted to speak a bit from first hand experience. I will get down off my soapbox now. If you want to know/talk more, I’d happily do that via PM. Yes, I am extremely blessed but I’ll be damned if anyone is going to tell me I’m selfish, shallow, mindless, or overpopulating the earth because I wanted a NEWBORN BABY of my own. I almost gave my life for my first one and was robbed of all its joy. By the grace of God and my sister, I got an even bigger miracle.

Obviously having children is a very sensitive subject and one that many feel naturally strongly about, but all we are asking of each other is some compassion and empathy. We are all God's (who/whatever that is to you) children. :) Peace

hey corrissey, i've offered myself up to a friend who cant carry children. she's adopted three so she says she's pretty much done with adding to the family, but if she changed her mind she'd let me know.
i hope if i do decide to have kids, that i can have them on my own, because it is hard to find a surrogate mother, and one you can trust not to abuse her own body while pregnant. And adopting is so very expensive, its crazy. Now I'm having ovarian issues, ironically, so I had a twinge of worry but I've been assured that my ovarian cyst isn't going to keep me from being fertile if and when I decide to make a little drooling, pooping machine.

And the rest mate!...he was 10lb...ouch!

He came as a bit of a shock as my daughter was a small baby!

Love Alma xxx

I was 10 1/2 lbs!! they had to c-section me out!

that's a very personal story you share with us and interesting, heartwarming to hear your experience Coz. I think we all experience life in a different way and I am happy that you have a chance to experience this feeling that you refer to as "ultimate love."

And maybe for you it is "ultimate love" and maybe for me "ultimate love" is found within, or in a teacher, or master, or friend, or alone with my camera, or in a paint brush, or in nature, or in my lover, or etc etc.

I think it is very easy to assume that everybody else will agree with you on what "ultimate love" is and where it can be found... very easy to assume this because you somehow cannot fathom how another could not identify with something you feel so clearly and strongly (and Coz, please don't think that I mean YOU when I say "you" - I am using it as a general term.)

I just think it is all too often that people assume that something like "ultimate love" can only be found in the form that they identify it with... and parts of that post inspired me to comment on it. Even though the post was informative, touching, and very nice of you to share in the careful way that you did. :)

hey corrissey, i've offered myself up to a friend who cant carry children. she's adopted three so she says she's pretty much done with adding to the family, but if she changed her mind she'd let me know.
i hope if i do decide to have kids, that i can have them on my own, because it is hard to find a surrogate mother, and one you can trust not to abuse her own body while pregnant. And adopting is so very expensive, its crazy. Now I'm having ovarian issues, ironically, so I had a twinge of worry but I've been assured that my ovarian cyst isn't going to keep me from being fertile if and when I decide to make a little drooling, pooping machine.

Bless your heart, bogs. And your friend's. Yes, adoption is crazy and expensive but surrogacy is too. My insurance didn't cover one red cent :( Still worth it tho. FWIW, HMOs cover more than PPOs. I'm sorry to hear about your ovarian issues, and glad it can be taken care of relatively easily. I thought I had one once, rushed to the ER with severe pain -they thought it was either that or a kidney stone- neither just ... nothing... IBS probably. My guts aren't the same after my surgery. ANYWAY, I do know that depending on the cyst, its size, its stage of detection- does not affect fertility. I forget how old you are, but 'younger' age helps. and heck, you really only need one ovary to make a baby. Good luck to you :) a PMA goes a long way too. I can tell you'd make a great baby Mama.

I was 10 1/2 lbs!! they had to c-section me out!

Do I win a prize... My 1st daughter was 10lbs, 15 oz, 23" long. A toddler! Yes, c-section. Now if this doesn't scare you girls away... :rolleyes:... I'm a freak of nature!!! who had undetected gestational diabetes...

that's a very personal story you share with us and interesting, heartwarming to hear your experience Coz. I think we all experience life in a different way and I am happy that you have a chance to experience this feeling that you refer to as "ultimate love."

And maybe for you it is "ultimate love" and maybe for me "ultimate love" is found within, or in a teacher, or master, or friend, or alone with my camera, or in a paint brush, or in nature, or in my lover, or etc etc.

I think it is very easy to assume that everybody else will agree with you on what "ultimate love" is and where it can be found... very easy to assume this because you somehow cannot fathom how another could not identify with something you feel so clearly and strongly (and Coz, please don't think that I mean YOU when I say "you" - I am using it as a general term.)

I just think it is all too often that people assume that something like "ultimate love" can only be found in the form that they identify it with... and parts of that post inspired me to comment on it. Even though the post was informative, touching, and very nice of you to share in the careful way that you did. :)

Yes, there are many different ways of having ultimate love. One does not necessarily mean more than the other. It's what makes you feel happy, fulfilled and content. It is hard to understand what/how others think, but everyone is justified in what makes them happiest. There is no wrong answer.

p.s. At least you and I can agree on arse hate. :mad: ;) :D

hmm... I was a c-section. I wrote quite a bit about it at one point. I went through some deep investigation during a rebirthing/breathing group I did that deals with birth issues. I found it interesting how all of the participants who were c-section remained silent when all the other people were crying and vice versa. I found that c-section is in fact a sensitive thing to deal with.

For me and the others I spoke to, there is a different response to pressure in life. Since we did not go through the normal process of being squeezed or put through acute pressure, only to feel release and entry into the world afterwards, but instead had a big set of hand invade the womb and pull us out - the normal huge imprint and impact of the birth experience colored our perception in a way that is sometimes difficult to understand or recognize in interpersonal relations on so many levels.

It was a fascinating thing to experience why I don't respond so well to pressure or work hard through pressure in order to reach an end result. Very good process to go through for me, helped me recognize a lot about the way the mind functions and how we are all greatly impacted and imprinted as a result of the birth process. I ultimately consider c-section a violent and invasive process through which to come into the world that parents should learn about and become sensitive to... even though the child may be healthy and the process is certainly needed at times... it really is good to learn about, and as far as I know there is not much mainstream research available on it... pity.

hrmmm. how bout...continuation of the human race?

What good is a continuation of the human race if you're gone?

Have children is like spinning your wheels.

Well here's TWO good reasons! ;)

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u258/almareallymatters/DisneylandParis2007052.jpg

Kid's are AWESOME! :D

Love Alma xxx

Beautiful. :)

But all I know is we're here and it's now ;)

Have children is like spinning your wheels.

tee hee!!!! :p

What good is a continuation of the human race if you're gone?

Most people don't die in childbirth, especially not the dads.

Most people don't die in childbirth, especially not the dads.

Hmm... I meant once you die (i.e. old age, murder or whatever), what good is the continuation of the human race to you. Not so high on your priority list.

hmm... I was a c-section. I wrote quite a bit about it at one point. I went through some deep investigation during a rebirthing/breathing group I did that deals with birth issues. I found it interesting how all of the participants who were c-section remained silent when all the other people were crying and vice versa. I found that c-section is in fact a sensitive thing to deal with.

For me and the others I spoke to, there is a different response to pressure in life. Since we did not go through the normal process of being squeezed or put through acute pressure, only to feel release and entry into the world afterwards, but instead had a big set of hand invade the womb and pull us out - the normal huge imprint and impact of the birth experience colored our perception in a way that is sometimes difficult to understand or recognize in interpersonal relations on so many levels.

It was a fascinating thing to experience why I don't respond so well to pressure or work hard through pressure in order to reach an end result. Very good process to go through for me, helped me recognize a lot about the way the mind functions and how we are all greatly impacted and imprinted as a result of the birth process. I ultimately consider c-section a violent and invasive process through which to come into the world that parents should learn about and become sensitive to... even though the child may be healthy and the process is certainly needed at times... it really is good to learn about, and as far as I know there is not much mainstream research available on it... pity.

:eek: Wow...did I just learn something new today. Interesting.

:eek: Wow...did I just learn something new today. Interesting.

Yup, if your kid ends up being super touchy when you walk into his or her room without knocking... try to remember that a big hand came into the most intimate, safe, temperature controlled, haven where everything is provided and just (kind of violently considering how sensitive a baby in the womb is) pulled them out without knocking. It can be seen as a human invasion into a space the child never got to take the journey out of alone... so go easy on the kid... and knock for cryin out loud! :)

oh and when the kid does not see any point in studying for a test or does not respond to social pressure in a way that seems acceptable... maybe you want to read up on the subject... good luck!

:eek: Wow...did I just learn something new today. Interesting.

I think its more about the environment you grow up in, and less what kind of birth you have, personally. I was a 'violent' C section (unfortunately for mom, back then they were the 'classical' kind and it was a straight line down the middle instead of a nice horizontal pocket-like line!) but I work amazingly well under pressure. Its one of the reasons I want to be a nurse with high risk clients like ER or NICU. Im also high pressure on myself when it comes to tests and doing well in anything.

I think natural birth is violent and traumatic too. All births aren't fun for the babies.

I think its more about the environment you grow up in, and less what kind of birth you have, personally. I was a 'violent' C section (unfortunately for mom, back then they were the 'classical' kind and it was a straight line down the middle instead of a nice horizontal pocket-like line!) but I work amazingly well under pressure. Its one of the reasons I want to be a nurse with high risk clients like ER or NICU. Im also high pressure on myself when it comes to tests and doing well in anything.

I think natural birth is violent and traumatic too. All births aren't fun for the babies.

well of course we all adjust and adapt and of course there are other factors... but the birth imprint is certainly not a bad thing to consider or learn about and for some people, most in my opinion - its effects will almost always surface in a persons experience at some point in life. Certainly it could not hurt to learn about.

We have also seen how cheaply your react, bogs, when you feel attacked or invaded... :rolleyes: perhaps that is how it manifested for you :p:p:p

well of course we all adjust and adapt and of course there are other factors... but the birth imprint is certainly not a bad thing to consider or learn about and for some people, most in my opinion - its effects will almost always surface in a persons experience at some point in life. Certainly it could not hurt to learn about.

We have also seen how cheaply your react, bogs, when you feel attacked or invaded... :rolleyes: perhaps that is how it manifested for you :p:p:p

it sounds really scientific. :rolleyes:

perhaps you could stop cheaply reacting over and over to something i said ages ago in answer to your 'my opinions are fact' bravado.

I say we blame everything on our parents :rolleyes:

I say we blame everything on our parents :rolleyes:

Read the famous poem by Philip Larkin, "This Be The Verse" :)

it sounds really scientific. :rolleyes:

'my opinions are fact' bravado.

as if I sent it out to JAMA for publication... :rolleyes:
another exaggeration - but what else is new?

I say we blame everything on our parents :rolleyes:

a traditional poem for Coz:

Parents and Children

As tall as your knee, they are pretty to see;
As tall as your head, they wish you were dead.

hmm... I was a c-section. I wrote quite a bit about it at one point. I went through some deep investigation during a rebirthing/breathing group I did that deals with birth issues. I found it interesting how all of the participants who were c-section remained silent when all the other people were crying and vice versa. I found that c-section is in fact a sensitive thing to deal with.

For me and the others I spoke to, there is a different response to pressure in life. Since we did not go through the normal process of being squeezed or put through acute pressure, only to feel release and entry into the world afterwards, but instead had a big set of hand invade the womb and pull us out - the normal huge imprint and impact of the birth experience colored our perception in a way that is sometimes difficult to understand or recognize in interpersonal relations on so many levels.

It was a fascinating thing to experience why I don't respond so well to pressure or work hard through pressure in order to reach an end result. Very good process to go through for me, helped me recognize a lot about the way the mind functions and how we are all greatly impacted and imprinted as a result of the birth process. I ultimately consider c-section a violent and invasive process through which to come into the world that parents should learn about and become sensitive to... even though the child may be healthy and the process is certainly needed at times... it really is good to learn about, and as far as I know there is not much mainstream research available on it... pity.

Uhm.... uh. Mmm...well. Ggh... uh. *making despairing faces*

I have given birth to a live child, and I have given birth to a dead child, and I can tell you from actual experience that if my child needed to be delivered through my nose, I would be the first one grabbing that scalpel to widen the passage. It is so completely irrelevant how that birth happens, as long as the baby is delivered in the safest manner possible. Barring injury during birth that causes actual brain damage, the manner in which you are born has no bearing on your personality and it's definitely not something that you can remember. There is no possible way.

I'm just not going to respond anymore, though it will be hard not to. You don't have any experience with pregnancy or motherhood except saying no to it, your opinions are increasingly offensive to me, and I don't want to listen to you anymore, so I'm walking out of the room. Bye.

Uhm.... uh. Mmm...well. Ggh... uh. *making despairing faces*

I have given birth to a live child, and I have given birth to a dead child, and I can tell you from actual experience that if my child needed to be delivered through my nose, I would be the first one grabbing that scalpel to widen the passage. It is so completely irrelevant how that birth happens, as long as the baby is delivered in the safest manner possible. Barring injury during birth that causes actual brain damage, the manner in which you are born has no bearing on your personality and it's definitely not something that you can remember. There is no possible way.

I'm just not going to respond anymore, though it will be hard not to. You don't have any experience with pregnancy or motherhood except saying no to it, your opinions are increasingly offensive to me, and I don't want to listen to you anymore, so I'm walking out of the room. Bye.


Word.

a traditional poem for Coz:

Parents and Children

As tall as your knee, they are pretty to see;
As tall as your head, they wish you were dead.

Talk about warm fuzzies :p Is that a Hallmark card?! :rolleyes:

Talk about warm fuzzies :p Is that a Hallmark card?! :rolleyes:

haha. they are better when they're as tall as your head- as long as they've grown into intelligent and caring young adults... and as long as you're not a shat mom... then they wish you were dead. or at least in a coma. :D not you of course, Corrissey!

haha. they are better when they're as tall as your head- as long as they've grown into intelligent and caring young adults... and as long as you're not a shat mom... then they wish you were dead. or at least in a coma. :D not you of course, Corrissey!

Mine sez she hates me sometimes. It's so damn cute :eek: :rolleyes: She's only chest level... I'm doomed :p

Mine sez she hates me sometimes. It's so damn cute :eek: :rolleyes: She's only chest level... I'm doomed :p

since you're a good mommy she'll be posting in the ashamed thread one day because she shouldnt have used those words so gosh darn lightly! :)

i NEVER told my mom i hated her and you know what kind of childhood I had!:tears:

Uhm.... uh. Mmm...well. Ggh... uh. *making despairing faces*

I have given birth to a live child, and I have given birth to a dead child, and I can tell you from actual experience that if my child needed to be delivered through my nose, I would be the first one grabbing that scalpel to widen the passage. It is so completely irrelevant how that birth happens, as long as the baby is delivered in the safest manner possible. Barring injury during birth that causes actual brain damage, the manner in which you are born has no bearing on your personality and it's definitely not something that you can remember. There is no possible way.

I'm just not going to respond anymore, though it will be hard not to. You don't have any experience with pregnancy or motherhood except saying no to it, your opinions are increasingly offensive to me, and I don't want to listen to you anymore, so I'm walking out of the room. Bye.


I am very sorry to hear about the child you lost.

I too am somewhat offended by suparni's comments.

I have twin girls. My first daughter was a very "routine" and natural birth. Her sister though, was a bit more stubborn. After an additional twenty minutes of excruciating labor, her heart rate dropped so quickly they decided to perform an emergency c-section. Only three minutes passed between the time they made that call, and she was born.

I honestly believe that anyone who has spent more than a nano-second of time believing they've been "cheated" by not sliding through the birth canal is a bit unstable (but not from childbirth). My Doctor's big hand "invading the womb" saved my daughter's life.

That's all I'm going to say about it.

I am very sorry to hear about the child you lost.

I too am somewhat offended by suparni's comments.

I have twin girls. My first daughter was a very "routine" and natural birth. Her sister though, was a bit more stubborn. After an additional twenty minutes of excruciating labor, her heart rate dropped so quickly they decided to perform an emergency c-section. Only three minutes passed between the time they made that call, and she was born.

I honestly believe that anyone who has spent more than a nano-second of time believing they've been "cheated" by not sliding through the birth canal is a bit unstable (but not from childbirth). My Doctor's big hand "invading the womb" saved my daughter's life.

That's all I'm going to say about it.

I bet since i was a csection instead of natural, i was saved from cerebral palsy or shoulder dystocia which could have rendered permanent nerve damage in my hands and I could have been cheated out of my musical education. It takes two good hands to operate a violin or a clarinet.
that is pretty cool that you had a natural birth and a c section in the same pregnancy... very unique experience... must have been horrifying 3 minutes... when i was in horrible pain yesterday every second felt like eternity...

hmm... I was a c-section. I wrote quite a bit about it at one point. I went through some deep investigation during a rebirthing/breathing group I did that deals with birth issues. I found it interesting how all of the participants who were c-section remained silent when all the other people were crying and vice versa. I found that c-section is in fact a sensitive thing to deal with.

For me and the others I spoke to, there is a different response to pressure in life. Since we did not go through the normal process of being squeezed or put through acute pressure, only to feel release and entry into the world afterwards, but instead had a big set of hand invade the womb and pull us out - the normal huge imprint and impact of the birth experience colored our perception in a way that is sometimes difficult to understand or recognize in interpersonal relations on so many levels.

It was a fascinating thing to experience why I don't respond so well to pressure or work hard through pressure in order to reach an end result. Very good process to go through for me, helped me recognize a lot about the way the mind functions and how we are all greatly impacted and imprinted as a result of the birth process. I ultimately consider c-section a violent and invasive process through which to come into the world that parents should learn about and become sensitive to... even though the child may be healthy and the process is certainly needed at times... it really is good to learn about, and as far as I know there is not much mainstream research available on it... pity.

I am not going to be a dick in this thread... I know I know... "Buzz... how can you not especially to THIS post... to THIS person....??!?!?!" Oh my friends, it IS possible.

While I do not completely discount some trauma associated with invasive surgical procedures in which this is obviously the case, it is such a cop-out to suggest that one group of people are tragically doomed because of it. We all are the product of choices and how we ourselves plan to approach situations.

One of my earliest memories is my Mom screaming at my Aunt for disappearing and sneaking off to the movies with me in 1978 to see the re-release of Star Wars in an icehouse of a movie theater somewhere in Brooklyn. The movie as well as the argument afterward are ingrained forever...

The only negative result could probably be considered.... wait... there was no negative to seeing Star Wars... awesome flick.

since you're a good mommy she'll be posting in the ashamed thread one day because she shouldnt have used those words so gosh darn lightly! :)

i NEVER told my mom i hated her and you know what kind of childhood I had!:tears:

If moz-solo is still around, she'll be posting :p LOL
She doesn't really hate me, she just sez it to get at me in the midst of some kind of drama like me not helping her find her stupid headband :rolleyes: I just say "Well I love you" & make kissy faces at her. I win :guitar:

p.s. I don't know what kind of childhood you had, but you growed up real good :)

If moz-solo is still around, she'll be posting :p LOL
She doesn't really hate me, she just sez it to get at me in the midst of some kind of drama like me not helping her find her stupid headband :rolleyes: I just say "Well I love you" & make kissy faces at her. I win :guitar:

p.s. I don't know what kind of childhood you had, but you growed up real good :)

oh its playtime I Hate You. well thats ok i do that to Jason haha.
and PS it was bad, and thanks, i like to think i made lemonade out of my lemons! :)

Uhm.... uh. Mmm...well. Ggh... uh. *making despairing faces*

I have given birth to a live child, and I have given birth to a dead child, and I can tell you from actual experience that if my child needed to be delivered through my nose, I would be the first one grabbing that scalpel to widen the passage. It is so completely irrelevant how that birth happens, as long as the baby is delivered in the safest manner possible. Barring injury during birth that causes actual brain damage, the manner in which you are born has no bearing on your personality and it's definitely not something that you can remember. There is no possible way.

I'm just not going to respond anymore, though it will be hard not to. You don't have any experience with pregnancy or motherhood except saying no to it, your opinions are increasingly offensive to me, and I don't want to listen to you anymore, so I'm walking out of the room. Bye.

Pregs, I am sorry that you had to go through the loss of a child. . . that's rough. Maybe later when you come back and read this thread a little bit less identified with that experience you will see that I am not putting down c section in any way whatsoever. Talking to Coz I said that it is a very useful thing to look into for a parent of a c section if it interests her at some point. That is all I said.

And also I am not trying to take anything away from you or your experience when I say that you are not the only person in the world who has experience tragedy and painful loss or tragedy through the birth process. C-section saved my mother's life when she started hemmoraging 4 months early with one of her children. She barely survived... they both did... but do you know what that entails?

Your loss is not insignificant, but please try not to be so self absorbed when reading posts... it leads to a great deal of misunderstanding and projection.

I am not going to be a dick in this thread... I know I know... "Buzz... how can you not especially to THIS post... to THIS person....??!?!?!" Oh my friends, it IS possible.

You were a dick the moment you decided to post... okay, I get it.

So what I don't understand is how you think I am putting down cesarian when I am not. Read it again. I am not against cesarian at all. I am saying that it might be an interesting thing for Coz to look into since I assume you are going to be deeply involved with this person that came through you into this world... or whom you are raising. I am not saying do not have cesarian... without it my own mother would not be here and she is one of my favorite people on the planet. I am a fucking c section for cryin out loud... I am saying that in my experience often times reaction can result in some way due to the process... saying it from my own fucking experience so obviously its not a scientific debate asshole... how stupid can you get? so please... fuck off or read and sleep on it before you post, dick.

You were a dick the moment you decided to post... okay, I get it.

So what I don't understand is how you think I am putting down cesarian when I am not. Read it again. I am not against cesarian at all. I am saying that it might be an interesting thing for Coz to look into since I assume you are going to be deeply involved with this person that came through you into this world... or whom you are raising. I am not saying do not have cesarian... without it my own mother would not be here and she is one of my favorite people on the planet. I am a fucking c section for cryin out loud... I am saying that in my experience often times reaction can result in some way due to the process... saying it from my own fucking experience so obviously its not a scientific debate asshole... how stupid can you get? so please... fuck off or read and sleep on it before you post, dick.

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the cage this morning?
Take your own advice sweetheart and read what I wrote. I never said you were "against" it. I spoke about the level of trauma associated with it and the effects.

Methinks you would be best served to follow the example you so want to set for others.

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the cage this morning?
Take your own advice sweetheart and read what I wrote. I never said you were "against" it. I spoke about the level of trauma associated with it and the effects.

Methinks you would be best served to follow the example you so want to set for others.

Buzzetta, I was speaking about my experience in a rebirthing and breath energy group process... MY EXPERIENCE... you might disagree with what I know to be true for myself. I think it's an insight worth sharing with a parent of a c section as I am one, as is one of my siblings, as is my best friend and her brother, as were the other people in the group with an MD and people with a lot of experience with such processes. Disagree about such things for yourself... you are the one making generalizations - implying that everybody experiences the same degree of trauma. Birth is a huge experience and IMO it has an impact... Moving from the womb into this vast world with all of its sensations and stimuli has impact and imprint in my view and in the view of many many many other people and movements. Granted, peoples sensitivity varies as you have proven with your seemingly (to me) insensitive attitude toward other beings - so plainly displayed in your comments regarding animals and feelings... You may be insensitive, and I don't doubt that for an instant... but I am not... and many other people and beings that have to share this planet with you may also display other aspects of intelligence and sensitivity which I am sure you just might not understand. You started your thread with the intention of being a dick... and you succeeded - bravo...

I am very sorry to hear about the child you lost.

I too am somewhat offended by suparni's comments.

I have twin girls. My first daughter was a very "routine" and natural birth. Her sister though, was a bit more stubborn. After an additional twenty minutes of excruciating labor, her heart rate dropped so quickly they decided to perform an emergency c-section. Only three minutes passed between the time they made that call, and she was born.

I honestly believe that anyone who has spent more than a nano-second of time believing they've been "cheated" by not sliding through the birth canal is a bit unstable (but not from childbirth). My Doctor's big hand "invading the womb" saved my daughter's life.

That's all I'm going to say about it.

I am not saying any of this to offend. You don't seem to get it that a csection saved my mom and my sibling. I am talking about sensitivity to a child after the c section - not putting down the c section for cryin out loud. I AM A C SECTION. Without c section my mother and sibling would both be dead... I was talking about raising the kid not the fucking c section. Great to hear your story but get it through your head that I am not attacking the process.

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the cage this morning?
Take your own advice sweetheart and read what I wrote. I never said you were "against" it. I spoke about the level of trauma associated with it and the effects.

Methinks you would be best served to follow the example you so want to set for others.


oh and btw the last thing I am going to do is take advice from you about levels of trauma and degrees of impact when you go around talking with such huge insensitivity regarding animals... Like going to a WWE super slam to talk about poetry.

Buzzetta, I was speaking about my experience in a rebirthing and breath energy group process... MY EXPERIENCE... you might disagree with what I know to be true for myself. I think it's an insight worth sharing with a parent of a c section as I am one, as is one of my siblings, as is my best friend and her brother, as were the other people in the group with an MD and people with a lot of experience with such processes. Disagree about such things for yourself... you are the one making generalizations - implying that everybody experiences the same degree of trauma. Birth is a huge experience and IMO it has an impact... Moving from the womb into this vast world with all of its sensations and stimuli has impact and imprint in my view and in the view of many many many other people and movements. Granted, peoples sensitivity varies as you have proven with your seemingly (to me) insensitive attitude toward other beings - so plainly displayed in your comments regarding animals and feelings... You may be insensitive, and I don't doubt that for an instant... but I am not... and many other people and beings that have to share this planet with you may also display other aspects of intelligence and sensitivity which I am sure you just might not understand. You started your thread with the intention of being a dick... and you succeeded - bravo...

You want a lifejacket? I don't want you to drown in the river you must cry yourself.

I never said that everyone experiences the "same" degree of trauma. I am so glad that it is an unedited post. Take a look for yourself. I said "some" not "same". There is an "o".

I never even fully disagreed with you. Again reread the post as I already placed an order of reading comprehension books for Dave and do not believe I can go back and alter it for an additional set for yourself.

I merely stated that I would not place a predetermined path nor blame certain reactions and associations with it. Again... it is a copout to assume you would be tragically doomed because of a C-Section. We all have choices.

Does this mean I won't see you at All American tomorrow after I go golfing? (So long as the weather holds up that is.)

Pregs, I am sorry that you had to go through the loss of a child. . . that's rough. Maybe later when you come back and read this thread a little bit less identified with that experience you will see that I am not putting down c section in any way whatsoever. Talking to Coz I said that it is a very useful thing to look into for a parent of a c section if it interests her at some point. That is all I said.

And also I am not trying to take anything away from you or your experience when I say that you are not the only person in the world who has experience tragedy and painful loss or tragedy through the birth process. C-section saved my mother's life when she started hemmoraging 4 months early with one of her children. She barely survived... they both did... but do you know what that entails?

Your loss is not insignificant, but please try not to be so self absorbed when reading posts... it leads to a great deal of misunderstanding and projection.

Ow. My head hurts. I'm trying to stop banging it on the desk, but I can't.

I said I wasn't going to come back. But I did. Because I have never had anyone spout such utter, ignorant nonsense to me in my entire life. I have no idea why you would assume that your "rebirth support group" or whatever weekend seminar you went to has anything to do with either reality or my experience. Or the experience of any of us here who have actually experienced any of the things we are talking about.

I do know what nearly dying of hemorrhage due to childbirth entails. I've done that. I do know what having a csection entails. I've had two. I do know what delivering a child "naturally" is like. I've done that, too. I do know what parenting a "c-sectioned" child is like. I have two children born that way. And I have one child who didn't survive. But I'm supposed to identify less with my real life experiences before I can engage in discussion with someone who has not experienced any of these things? Why?

If you have any actual first hand experience with any of these, you have somehow neglected to mention it. (No, your past-life regression seminar doesn't count.) This isn't a "my tragedy is worse than yours" pissing match. I know it's hard to let go of an argument, obviously, because I'm back here not letting go. But seriously... at least five people now have tried to tell you to just stop, and you haven't.

Specifically, you said this:
I ultimately consider c-section a violent and invasive process through which to come into the world that parents should learn about and become sensitive to... even though the child may be healthy and the process is certainly needed at times... it really is good to learn about, and as far as I know there is not much mainstream research available on it... pity.

Yet you aren't putting it down? You really don't know anything about it. Not one thing. Not the causes, not the procedure itself, not the recovery, not the kinds of scars it leaves, not how it makes you feel emotionally, nothing. You have appalling nerve. Really, I'm just begging you to shut up. That's all. You're known to be a bit flakey and new agey, and we like you here anyway, because of it as much as in spite of it. You're a very sensitive and caring person, and an artist, and you're well liked here. So don't ruin that, ok? Just close your mouth (take your hands away from the keyboard) and go post on the frink thread or something.

Oh, and for the record, I came out the old-fashioned squeezy way, and I'm not good under pressure, or when put into high-pressure situations, either. So that blows your theory out of the water. The idea that being physically squeezed in birth prepares you for emotional and situational "squeezing" via imprinting is laughable at best.

but pregs, she knows everything. its clear as day. and just because you came out the old fashioned way and you're not good under pressure, well, she'll just switch around the dynamics of her argument to fit that, by saying you just adapted to the world that way or something else that would seemingly continue to make her right.

my hope is that someone has stolen her password and is just making her seem this holier than thou and righteous, and the real suparni is too busy to notice she's been hacked.

yeah, yeah, yeah

Forget about dumb ole babies and talk about something serious...my cat has HAIRBALLS!:eek: And no, I don't mean his wedding tackle. The Young Sir has been hawking up loogies all morning and now I have to go and rent one of those stupid rug cleaners because the landlord will be here to fix the air conditioner later, and I'm not even supposed to have a cat!

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2299/catvomitwarningsignxd4.jpg

Where's Dave? I need someone to rationalize for me the fact that I stayed home from work for this. :o

yeah, yeah, yeah

Forget about dumb ole babies and talk about something serious...my cat has HAIRBALLS!:eek: And no, I don't mean his wedding tackle. The Young Sir has been hawking up loogies all morning and now I have to go and rent one of those stupid rug cleaners because the landlord will be here to fix the air conditioner later, and I'm not even supposed to have a cat!

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2299/catvomitwarningsignxd4.jpg

Where's Dave? I need someone to rationalize for me the fact that I stayed home from work for this. :o

oh maaan! thats awful! sometimes my dog throws up i swear just for shits and giggles. oh animals!

oh maaan! thats awful! sometimes my dog throws up i swear just for shits and giggles. oh animals!

It's like they're saying "I love you" with vomit, right? :sick:

It's like they're saying "I love you" with vomit, right? :sick:

yeah she loves me so much i just ripped all the carpet out and put down pergo. she cant stain wood laminate!

yeah she loves me so much i just ripped all the carpet out and put down pergo. she cant stain wood laminate!

Great move! The sound of happy doggy toenails on the floor is one of the very best ones ever. :o

I bid you adieu, for I must go off in search of The Rug Doctor (http://rent.rugdoctor.com/tabid/11/Default.aspx) before Manuel Noriega (http://www.filibustercartoons.com/content/pic_essays/leaders/olddic/noriega.jpg) gets here. :mad:

Great move! The sound of happy doggy toenails on the floor is one of the very best ones ever. :o

you are so right. i didnt know what i was missing!

I also know what nearly dying of hemorrhage due to childbirth entails andI certainly didn't expect an emergency hysterectomy following an c-section, but given my options, the doctors did the right thing. It's a very sensitive subject for me and this thread is bringing up some powerful emotions. It's actually upsetting and depressing me (tho I know it's nobody's intention--it's what I'm getting out of it). I think Ill stick to the Song vs Song Game ;) Besides, Morrissey solo (esp the 'child free'! thread) is not the website to talk about and work out these feelings. I have a proper web support group for that.

suparni, I appreciate what you're trying to say and how you think it might interest me -it did for a second- but I can honestly say I wont be looking into it, it's pretty left field for me. There are enough inside and outside influences that will determine the kind of human beings I'm raising -that I don't want to tie in any of their personality traits with how they were brought into this world. Most specifically my first born as the whole thing was 'violent' -I feel enough 'at blame' that I don't want to think or believe that would determine the kind of person she grows up to be.

I'll be on the Parenthood thread if anyone needs me.

yeah, yeah, yeah

Forget about dumb ole babies and talk about something serious...my cat has HAIRBALLS!:eek: And no, I don't mean his wedding tackle. The Young Sir has been hawking up loogies all morning and now I have to go and rent one of those stupid rug cleaners because the landlord will be here to fix the air conditioner later, and I'm not even supposed to have a cat!

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2299/catvomitwarningsignxd4.jpg

Where's Dave? I need someone to rationalize for me the fact that I stayed home from work for this. :o
fucking cats eh? time to get some anti fur ball cat food!

Great move! The sound of happy doggy toenails on the floor is one of the very best ones ever. :o

I bid you adieu, for I must go off in search of The Rug Doctor (http://rent.rugdoctor.com/tabid/11/Default.aspx) before Manuel Noriega (http://www.filibustercartoons.com/content/pic_essays/leaders/olddic/noriega.jpg) gets here. :mad:
Lulu hasn't really adapted to laminate flooring. She frequently runs too fast and slides into things (walls, doors, bookcases, fridges etc) and the tappty tap tapping across the floor as she scuttles round in the night is quite comforting after a while.

Lulu hasn't really adapted to laminate flooring. She frequently runs too fast and slides into things (walls, doors, bookcases, fridges etc) and the tappty tap tapping across the floor as she scuttles round in the night is quite comforting after a while.

hannah isnt loving it because she cant jump into bed easily. now she's smashed her face a few times. cant dig into the floor like she used to! im going to have to give her a mat.

hannah isnt loving it because she cant jump into bed easily. now she's smashed her face a few times. cant dig into the floor like she used to! im going to have to give her a mat.
hahhahahahaha! Lulu is lucky, we have a very lov bed. Otherwise she'll have to take up climbing up the bed like a mountaineer the way she used to when she was small :D

hahhahahahaha! Lulu is lucky, we have a very lov bed. Otherwise she'll have to take up climbing up the bed like a mountaineer the way she used to when she was small :D

we got her doggie steps but they are equally traumatic because they slide across the slick floor when she uses them and she hit her face again! what kind of sadistic creatures are we?!! im going to have to get little rubber things to put on the bottom of the stairs so they dont move!:)

tragically doomed because of a C-Section (So long as the weather holds up that is.)

oh yes that is exactly what I wrote...

I wasn't trying to make any of you parents feel upset or guilty or whateverthefuck you have kicked into in regards to c-section. Being cut out of the womb is still a violent way to come into the world in my opinion. I am entitled to that opinion whether or not you want to attack me about it. Pregs, you have no idea what my experience is and your having had many children and having lost one makes you feel like you have the right to deal with that energy by assuming that I know nothing about anything... when you don't know me, or my family, or anything I have lived through or with. You are not the authority either, but you obviously feel that you are and that you have the right to attack other people for their experiences and views. No, I won't be sharing any of my "left" ideas or views or experiences anymore... and that is all I was doing, sharing MY experience and view - I am obviously not an MD nor did I claim to be... but neither are you. And basically you attacked me like an angry mob of people who think I am trying to attack their motherhood. I would not judge anybody on having to have had a c section, but I do in regards to how you cannot listen to a person's PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (I am a c section yet I know nothing about it according to pregs... a premature child by 4 months in my fam yet I know nothing about difficulties involved???? okay pregs)

You basically attacked and put down a view that is different than yours saying that it makes you angry. Thats pretty lame.

you don't even know what you're saying half the time. for instance, you claimed the poll was lopsided because everyone voted one way and that was "proof". the poll isn't necessarily lopsided, but the population voting is. I think most moz soloists are, as I've said before, loving and unifying folks. Its not a random population. Also people may be hesitant to answer one way when 30 or so people are answering the other.
Im not sure what you mean by "I am a c section yet I know nothing about it according to pregs..." most people don't remember being born, especially if they are premature because you brain hasn't finished forming like it should in the womb. It forms in a NICU bed as well, but its not even at the awareness of a full term baby, and I'd say next to no one can remember being born.
Your defensiveness is noted. Commentary has been ugly, mostly from you. You've singlehandedly taken a pretty interesting topic and made it into some sort of ludicrous debate for your attention seeking, know-it-all pleasure. Congrats!

you don't even know what you're saying half the time. for instance, you claimed th poll was lopsided because everyone voted one way and that was "proof". the poll isn't necessarily lopsided, but the population voting is. I think most moz soloists are, as I've said before, loving and unifying folks. Its not a random population. Also people may be hesitant to answer one way when 30 or so people are answering the other.
Im not sure what you mean by "I am a c section yet I know nothing about it according to pregs..." most people don't remember being born, especially if they are premature because you brain hasn't finished forming like it should in the womb. It forms in a NICU bed as well, but its not even at the awareness of a full term baby, and I'd say next to no one can remember being born.
Your defensiveness is noted. Commentary has been ugly, mostly from you. You've singlehandedly taken a pretty interesting topic and made it into some sory of ludicrous debate for your attention seeking, know-it-all pleasure. Congrats!

I was born with my intestines hanging out my abdomen. but that doesnt mean I'm an expert on....abnormal baby intestines...? yeah, somethin like that.

I was born with my intestines hanging out my abdomen. but that doesnt mean I'm an expert on....abnormal baby intestines...? yeah, somethin like that.

oh yeah damn what was that called, we looked it up. prolapsed something or other? ooh im going to look it up... Gastroschisis!

you don't even know what you're saying half the time. for instance, you claimed th poll was lopsided because everyone voted one way and that was "proof". the poll isn't necessarily lopsided, but the population voting is. I think most moz soloists are, as I've said before, loving and unifying folks. Its not a random population. Also people may be hesitant to answer one way when 30 or so people are answering the other.
Im not sure what you mean by "I am a c section yet I know nothing about it according to pregs..." most people don't remember being born, especially if they are premature because you brain hasn't finished forming like it should in the womb. It forms in a NICU bed as well, but its not even at the awareness of a full term baby, and I'd say next to no one can remember being born.
Your defensiveness is noted. Commentary has been ugly, mostly from you. You've singlehandedly taken a pretty interesting topic and made it into some sory of ludicrous debate for your attention seeking, know-it-all pleasure. Congrats!

again you didn't get it. I was not premature... a sibling was. Furthermore I was not talking about remembering my birth... (and I am not even going to go near that considering the reception of ideas you are not familiar with) I was talking about the repercussions of birth that surface later in life... but you do not want to see that. So congrats for defending your position with misrepresentation. And congrats for bringing your lopsided poll back into it when there is so much defensiveness going on in regards to an unrelated aspect of the conversation. Once again it does not change my view, nor does it change the fact that I was attacked by people who seem hyper defensive in regards to their motherhood... which is no new concept. But whatever. Now I am done here.

I was born with my intestines hanging out my abdomen. but that doesnt mean I'm an expert on....abnormal baby intestines...? yeah, somethin like that.
no but I don't understand how proposing that a healing of the trauma involved might be something worth looking into can be regarded as offensive.

no but I don't understand how proposing that a healing of the trauma involved might be something worth looking into can be regarded as offensive.

maybe you could explain how natural childbirth isnt considered traumatic? i'd think both are pretty traumatic and violent.

oh yeah damn what was that called, we looked it up. prolapsed something or other? ooh im going to look it up... Gastroschisis!

yep! we saw that gastroschisis baby in a jar! yum!

maybe you could explain how natural childbirth isnt considered traumatic? i'd think both are pretty traumatic and violent.
i think i have said enough and I doubt anything good can come of the conversation in this atmosphere. Like I said I am done being attacked.

i think i have said enough and I doubt anything good can come of the conversation in this atmosphere. Like I said I am done being attacked.

...because normal childbirth is traumatic and you can't come up with a good way to back up your story? attacked. like you're an innocent. ok, go ahead and be the victim, sups, you seem to play the role excellently. cheers.

yep! we saw that gastroschisis baby in a jar! yum!

and i saw gastroschisis in real life at work! ewwy! but it wasnt that bad to look at. they're just tiny babies. a full size adult might be a litle harder to look at intestines on the outside....:sick:

Shall I post my yucky grungy slimey baby pic again? ;)

Love Alma xxx

Shall I post my yucky grungy slimey baby pic again? ;)

Love Alma xxx

Please don't. That was almost putting me off. :o

Shall I post my yucky grungy slimey baby pic again? ;)

Love Alma xxx
what, and get back on topic? Blasphemy!:D

Please don't. That was almost putting me off. :o

hahahaha gloopy babies are kinda gross. much cuter when cleaned up. at least that one didnt have meconium all over it!

Please don't. That was almost putting me off. :o


Don't say I didn't offer! ;)

My son was actually born with the amniotic sac fully intact...its alright...I don't have a photo! :D

Love Alma xxx

Don't say I didn't offer! ;)

My son was actually born with the amniotic sac fully intact...its alright...I don't have a photo! :D

Love Alma xxx

aw i actually loooove the gross photos. if i could photograph my naughty cyst for you i would :p

aw i actually loooove the gross photos. if i could photograph my naughty cyst for you i would :p

Would you like to see my episiotomy scar photo?....just kidding! :D

Love Alma xxx

Would you like to see my episiotomy scar photo?....just kidding! :D

Love Alma xxx

is it unique to other scars ???

Would you like to see my episiotomy scar photo?....just kidding! :D

I have to say that this post left me temporarily speechless. :D

is it unique to other scars ???

Oh yeah...I think it's uniqueness maybe in the fact that it comes with a matching scar on the top of your head (sustained when you bang it on the ceiling the first time you try taking a pee after having an episiotomy!) ;)

Love Alma xxx

Oh yeah...I think it's uniqueness maybe in the fact that it comes with a matching scar on the top of your head (sustained when you bang it on the ceiling the first time you try taking a pee after having an episiotomy!) ;)

Love Alma xxx

Oh, my. Ouch.

I will admit that I very much appreciated one aspect of my (very medically necessary) cesections: I like my stitches "high and dry" as it were.

And I'm still astonished how easy they were to recover from. You'd think major surgery would take more out of you. They've got it down to an art, and the medical staff make it as easy as possible to heal. I'm just happy all went well, in the end. My kids are astonishing and wonderful and completely exhausting, but I'm very glad I have them. They are going to be amazing people- they already are. :D

Oh, my. Ouch.

I will admit that I very much appreciated one aspect of my (very medically necessary) cesections: I like my stitches "high and dry" as it were.

And I'm still astonished how easy they were to recover from. You'd think major surgery would take more out of you. They've got it down to an art, and the medical staff make it as easy as possible to heal. I'm just happy all went well, in the end.

c sections are pretty dope now. and you dont have to bleed profusely out the vajayjay for two weeks after either, because they clean your uterus all up.

My kids are astonishing and wonderful and completely exhausting, but I'm very glad I have them. They are going to be amazing people- they already are. :D

:sick: hahahah :D

Oh, my. Ouch.

I will admit that I very much appreciated one aspect of my (very medically necessary) cesections: I like my stitches "high and dry" as it were.

And I'm still astonished how easy they were to recover from. You'd think major surgery would take more out of you. They've got it down to an art, and the medical staff make it as easy as possible to heal. I'm just happy all went well, in the end. My kids are astonishing and wonderful and completely exhausting, but I'm very glad I have them. They are going to be amazing people- they already are. :D

I only had two little stitches...but when they are "down there" it don't matter if it's two or twenty bloody two...it's sure gonna smart a bit! :eek:

Kid's being astonishing?...wonderful?....exhausting?....amazin g?...well AMEN to all of that sister! :guitar:

Love Alma xxx

oh yes that is exactly what I wrote...

Wow are you insane?

Now you just quoted me and spliced two separate portions of what I wrote into a new sentence. According to you I said:

"tragically doomed because of a C-Section (So long as the weather holds up that is.)"

The "so long as the weather holds up that is." was in reference as to whether or not I would be going golfing today. Let us hope that it was simply a typographical error on your part.

Wow are you insane?

Now you just quoted me and spliced two separate portions of what I wrote into a new sentence. According to you I said:

"tragically doomed because of a C-Section (So long as the weather holds up that is.)"

The "so long as the weather holds up that is." was in reference as to whether or not I would be going golfing today. Let us hope that it was simply a typographical error on your part.

yes it was a typo... but I may as well have spliced it and meant it the way you read what I write. either way it is misunderstood... and being misunderstood by a working class republican is really nothing that I am going to worry about anytime soon.

and being misunderstood by a working class republican is really nothing that I am going to worry about anytime soon.

:doh:

yes it was a typo... but I may as well have spliced it and meant it the way you read what I write. either way it is misunderstood... and being misunderstood by a working class republican is really nothing that I am going to worry about anytime soon.

Interesting... You just demonstrated what a complete psycho you are.

I only had two little stitches...but when they are "down there" it don't matter if it's two or twenty bloody two...it's sure gonna smart a bit! :eek:


I have said it before about my stiches down there, altho it was in the frink thread, you can imagine it did not go down well in there, but however I had 2 stiches but the person doing it must have over stitched that much, either that it was knit one purl one cause after I got home I could not sit down, I was in agony, was trying to get the shbf to look and he was having none of it, Eventually my mum took me to the hospital and the midwife there said a thread was digging right in, she snipped it off and I could have kissed her! she said it was nice to have cheered someone up :p

I was born via a c section, I cant recall anything of it... it was very necassary my mother was dreadfully poorly a tad touch and go whether she would make it.

c sections are pretty dope now. and you dont have to bleed profusely out the vajayjay for two weeks after either, because they clean your uterus all up.



have we already discussed how bad it is that they are becoming routine though now? Let people give it a go naturally I say, I took a minor panic just before my son was due thinking oh god I will just have a c sec, but after seeing the woman opposite me who had to have an emergencey C hobbling about for days I thought yea I am glad I just did it the "usual" way.

:doh:

well, NRitH... I never understood working class republicans because they seem to vote for economic policies that benefit the upper class - and oftentimes they are quite bullish in their attack on liberals even though the liberal policies would often benefit them... but instead they vote for policies that benefit people way above their own tax bracket... like being bullishly against themselves. I just never got that... I guess that makes me crazy... which is fine with me.

I have said it before about my stiches down there, altho it was in the frink thread, you can imagine it did not go down well in there, but however I had 2 stiches but the person doing it must have over stitched that much, either that it was knit one purl one cause after I got home I could not sit down, I was in agony, was trying to get the shbf to look and he was having none of it, Eventually my mum took me to the hospital and the midwife there said a thread was digging right in, she snipped it off and I could have kissed her! she said it was nice to have cheered someone up :p

A year or two from now, we'll wonder why there haven't been any SoLow baby announcements for a long time...

A year or two from now, we'll wonder why there haven't been any SoLow baby announcements for a long time...

heheh uh oh, you think we have frightened everyone? :D

sales of condoms will soar!