Meat is Murder?

[wilmamozzer]

Well I would say Meat is murder. I just want to hear if all mozzers are vegetarians, if not why? And if you are, do you have anything smart I can say to people who eat meat. Cos I really tried to make them understand but they really love their steak. And I doubt most of them will ever understand.

[Kimpa]

I would never give up meat because of Morrissey.

[wilmamozzer]

Ok, but why do you eat meat? I became a vegetarian long before I even heard of Moz, but I belive what he says is true.

[Kimpa]

Well, i just like meat. I never think about the fact that animals get killed because. And in "propaganda" documentaries about animal slaughtering, i just cant feel sorry for them. I have a friend says that he rather kill people than animals. But he is like Mr. Mcdonalds and eat there a lot:p

[Young And Alive]

I eat meat. I don't recognise animals as being on the same moral scale as humans.

I take it then that no vegetarians have ever killed an insect then? To those that have - well, how is this any better than killing a cow or lamb etc.?

I love Morrissey but his militant stance against scientists researching possible cures against diseases is just plain wrong. Unless Moz himself can come up with a better solution which we could use to cure illnesses then I suggest he keep his trap shut on the subject.

[wilmamozzer]

well what can I say, you have your opinion but I think that eating meat just cos you like it is a bit wrong. I can never fully understand that but you cant know everything can you? I would really like to hear a better reason to eat meat than that you like it. I have thought about it but I cant come up with anything.

[Inept]

Yes, Meat IS Murder, yet I am not a vegetarian.
I am able to comprehend the savagery of eating meat, but still include it in my diet because I am pre-diabetic and have been told by many doctors that I need to rely on a protein heavy diet. Sorry, soy-based products act as synthetic hormones and I can't have those either.
I try to purchase organic, grass fed, free range type meat, and yes I feel very guilty at times.
I do not think that the animal slaughtering videos are "propaganda."
They are merely informative for those who have no idea of how their food arrives on their plate.

[esheh195]

Well I would say Meat is murder. I just want to hear if all mozzers are vegetarians, if not why? And if you are, do you have anything smart I can say to people who eat meat. Cos I really tried to make them understand but they really love their steak. And I doubt most of them will ever understand.

Yes. We are all vegetarians. We also all wear Gucci suits, have our hair in pompadours and are mysteriously aloof about our sexuality. :rolleyes:;)
Seriously though, 'all' is a strong statement, don't you think?
Now, I'm sure you feel strongly about your beliefs in vegetarianism...but why try to 'make them understand'? People will come to their own realizations. If you are so determined to covert these evil meat eaters, you are much better leading by example not by preaching and being so heavyhanded. You can lure more flies with honey than you can with vinegar, you know. Don't go on and on about meat being murder and complaining about what they are doing...simply continue living the lifestyle that makes you happy...maybe they'll see how happy you are and think to themselves...'hmm...maybe he's onto something.'
I tried vegetarianism for a while and it's not for me. But I know that when people tried to convert me...I naturally rebelled. But when I was merely exposed to kind, understanding, happy people who were vegetarian...I decided I would give it a shot.

[wilmamozzer]

Isn't there any vegetarians who like moz (not to eat), I thought it would be....

[EPbabe]

Well, I'm only human. And humans are omnivores. Oh well, enough said.

[esheh195]

well what can I say, you have your opinion but I think that eating meat just cos you like it is a bit wrong. I can never fully understand that but you cant know everything can you? I would really like to hear a better reason to eat meat than that you like it. I have thought about it but I cant come up with anything.

Want a nice debate on the topic...go to good old Buzzetta's comments on this thread :) http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showthread.php?t=81787

[wilmamozzer]

well esheh is problaly right about the whole thing about convincing people. But they are trying to force me to eat meat so what can I do.

[esheh195]

well esheh are problaly right about the whole thing about convincing people. But they are trying to force me to eat meat so what can I do.

How can anyone force you to eat meat? Is this family that you are talking about or friends? I mean with friends...just remember that 'No' is a complete sentence. Family is tougher though, especially if you are young. I'm not experienced in that kind of situation though. So, I'm not the best one to give advice.
"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?" :D;)

[underdog99]

Well, I'm only human. And humans are omnivores.

yes humans are omnivores, we have a choice to eat meat or plants. The choice humans make have to fit into the system that already exists in nature, and in my opinion that means humans cannot cut down other forms of life, when we can live all the same without that. But I listen to way too much Shelter, and Propagandhi anyway so I'm a bit biased. :cool:

[wilmamozzer]

well my parents dont eat meat either so thats no problem. But my classmates who isn't really my friends they go hunting on the weekends and they just cant stop talking about it. Well its not like they can change my mind but they are trying. And thats irretating, they are all so trying to stop me from listening to the smiths and morrissey.

[EPbabe]

yes humans are omnivores, we have a choice to eat meat or plants.

Oh that's great news. Well, I have made mine: I remain an omnivore :cool:

[lottie]

Wilmamozzer,
sounds ot me like you need to find some new 'real' friends, because a true friend would respect your belief and leave you to get on with it.
I am a veggie, and not because of Moz, but it does help that he thinks exactly the way i do about it all, it is perhaps one of the main reasons i love him so, i could NEVER have this much respect/admiration for a meat eater, be they the worlds greatest pop star/poet or whatever i just couldnt.
:)

[Kimpa]

well my parents dont eat meat either so thats no problem. But my classmates who isn't really my friends they go hunting on the weekends and they just cant stop talking about it. Well its not like they can change my mind but they are trying. And thats irretating, they are all so trying to stop me from listening to the smiths and morrissey.

How old are you? sounds like your classmates is idiots. My classmates doesnt thrash Morrissey or The smiths, They just listen to some shitty new music..

[EPbabe]

Wilmamozzer,
sounds to me like you need to find some new 'real' friends, because a true friend would respect your belief and leave you to get on with it.

:)

I couldn't agree with you more on that. :)

[wilmamozzer]

well lottie, I have real friends to, and they are fine with me being a veggie one of them are it to. But the people in my class are the one who are against everything I like, but to tell you the truth I am agianst everything they like so I guess I will have to deal with it.

[wilmamozzer]

How old are you? sounds like your classmates is idiots. My classmates doesnt thrash Morrissey or The smiths, They just listen to some shitty new music..

I am 15, so that can explain things.

[lottie]

well lottie, I have real friends to, and they are fine with me being a veggie one of them are it to. But the people in my class are the one who are against everything I like, but to tell you the truth I am agianst everything they like so I guess I will have to deal with it.

what is it with everyone being touchy today,
i never meant you dont have real friends what i understood from your posts was that it was your friends being like this... so my mistake, just ignore your classmates, you don't need their approval, you are beter than them in so many ways, just live your life and cherish the friends that are true to you. :)

[nugz]

I'm not vegetarian, but I dont care if someone else is. just dont try to force your beliefs onto me. Although I have to say that if you dont think humans are "above" animals, thats just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. sorry.

[Kimpa]

I am 15, so that can explain things.

Yes, i could but if i were you i would probobly change class. People would probobly suggest that you maybe should talk to the principal (well in here in sweden everybody would suggest that) but i doesnt work. But if your friends goes to the same school as you, couldnt you change class?

[wilmamozzer]

Well I thought of changing class, but im goíng in the ninth grade and I am hoping for a brighter future in high school. Theres a school called Södra Latin wich has a roumor to be the home for people like me. and lottie thanks for the advice.

[mozzia]

I'm a vegetarian, ever since watching a video a few months ago which had a massive effect on me. It was accompanied by the Meat is Murder song....a song which i had listened to and which had made me consider the wrongs and rights of eating meat, but which had never been enough to change my mind. But this video made me cry, shake and feel sick, and put me off eating meat, and made me feel terrible for the animals sufferings.
I don't find the eating of the meat the most important thing, more the way the animals are treated before they become meat.
I think everyone should be allowed to have their own opinions on this matter, and are in no way better or worse than anyone else for the opinions they hold. Not eating meat doesn't instantly make you a good person, just as eating meat doesn't instantly make you a bad person.
And I don't think its right to try to make people feel bad for their views.

[Flax]

I'm not vegetarian, but I dont care if someone else is. just dont try to force your beliefs onto me. Although I have to say that if you dont think humans are "above" animals, thats just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. sorry.

- Vegetarianism is not a belief.
- Just because you assume that humans are "above" animals, that doesn't give you the right to torture and slaughter them simply to satisfy your appetite or to make you look cool in a fur coat. It's violence and we all know it.

But that's ok... eating meat is legal so there is nothing we can do about it, other than showing them the obvious.

I can say that I can eat an apple, talk about it and watch a video of that very same apple being picked, being put in a truck, going to the store and coming to my table WHILE I eat it.

You can't do the same with meat.

[dzhemini]

I am a veggie, and not because of Moz, but it does help that he thinks exactly the way i do about it all, it is perhaps one of the main reasons i love him so, i could NEVER have this much respect/admiration for a meat eater, be they the worlds greatest pop star/poet or whatever i just couldnt.
:)

Well said! I am a vegetarian, and has been for 8 years, but Morrissey has nothing to do with it. When I became vegetarian I didn't even know who Morrissey was.
But I'm happy that we have the same views about this. I don't think I could respect him and love him the way I do if he was a meat eater.

[Kimpa]

Well I thought of changing class, but im goíng in the ninth grade and I am hoping for a brighter future in high school. Theres a school called Södra Latin wich has a roumor to be the home for people like me. and lottie thanks for the advice.

Well, then its only to hang out there. But that must mean that you are from stockholm?, You make it sound like you a outcast. Your not.
Well this is kinda off-topic..

[esheh195]

- Vegetarianism is not a belief.

True enough. :)

that doesn't give you the right to torture and slaughter them simply to satisfy your appetite or to make you look cool in a fur coat. It's violence and we all know it.

But this is. ;)

[meat_is_murder19]

Im a veggie all my dads side of the family are veggies they are also big animal rights activists.you can`t force people your own beliefs down everyones throats thier are people in this world who will never stop eating meat you just have to learn to live with it.

[underdog99]

I'm not vegetarian, but I dont care if someone else is. just dont try to force your beliefs onto me. Although I have to say that if you dont think humans are "above" animals, thats just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. sorry.

yes humans are above animals in the sense that we're more intelligent/powerful etc.

But if you believe that there is a certain order to nature, and if you believe in the studies of Darwin, then you have to agree with the idea that humans have to fit into that order, and not bring it down. After all, humans are the most adaptive creatures on earth, its our greatest strength.

but this is again all what I believe, it makes sense to me

[applebuttaz]

if its good i eat it, if its bad i dont eat it thats my philosophy jaja:p

[nogodsnomasters85]

I simply have never heard a philosophically sound argument for it. Some say "All life is sacred" which sounds nice but is really hippie crap and total nonsense, what about rodents, insects, yeast, or bacteria and diseases, all are life, and many veggos/vegans don't care about them. Secondly the insinuation that simply eating meat is a predecessor to violence is a load of crap, hitler was a vegetarian. Violence is a maladjusted behaviorism when it is used indiscriminately or inappropriately, and there IS an appropriate use for violence. And calling meat murder is nothing more than empty sloganeering, anyone who truly believes that is RETARDED. I have to prepare lobsters at my work, I don't like but I have to and I am DAMN sure that doing this in no way makes me capable of killing a child, or any other innocent person. I'm all for protecting animals, the ones who's ecosystems are being destroyed, but these animals are deliberately raised for food, the population remains unharmed. Not to mention the fact that humans are naturally omnivores, meat and dairy are some of the best sources of proteins and fats and calories to keep us healthy and alive, ESPECIALLY young children for whom adequate nutrition is much more important.

[*EqualOpportunityHater*]

I HATE meat. :cool:

[Buzzetta]

I'm not vegetarian, but I dont care if someone else is. just dont try to force your beliefs onto me. Although I have to say that if you dont think humans are "above" animals, thats just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. sorry.

Do I have to go out and take a new set of pictures for this thread as well? Its almost as if "Off Topic" is the red headed step child to "General Discussion"

[Buzzetta]

I simply have never heard a philosophically sound argument for it. Some say "All life is sacred" which sounds nice but is really hippie crap and total nonsense, what about rodents, insects, yeast, or bacteria and diseases, all are life, and many veggos/vegans don't care about them. Secondly the insinuation that simply eating meat is a predecessor to violence is a load of crap, hitler was a vegetarian. Violence is a maladjusted behaviorism when it is used indiscriminately or inappropriately, and there IS an appropriate use for violence. And calling meat murder is nothing more than empty sloganeering, anyone who truly believes that is RETARDED. I have to prepare lobsters at my work, I don't like but I have to and I am DAMN sure that doing this in no way makes me capable of killing a child, or any other innocent person. I'm all for protecting animals, the ones who's ecosystems are being destroyed, but these animals are deliberately raised for food, the population remains unharmed. Not to mention the fact that humans are naturally omnivores, meat and dairy are some of the best sources of proteins and fats and calories to keep us healthy and alive, ESPECIALLY young children for whom adequate nutrition is much more important.

Food Source....

[Flax]

I simply have never heard a philosophically sound argument for it. Some say "All life is sacred" which sounds nice but is really hippie crap and total nonsense, what about rodents, insects, yeast, or bacteria and diseases, all are life, and many veggos/vegans don't care about them. Secondly the insinuation that simply eating meat is a predecessor to violence is a load of crap, hitler was a vegetarian. Violence is a maladjusted behaviorism when it is used indiscriminately or inappropriately, and there IS an appropriate use for violence. And calling meat murder is nothing more than empty sloganeering, anyone who truly believes that is RETARDED. I have to prepare lobsters at my work, I don't like but I have to and I am DAMN sure that doing this in no way makes me capable of killing a child, or any other innocent person. I'm all for protecting animals, the ones who's ecosystems are being destroyed, but these animals are deliberately raised for food, the population remains unharmed. Not to mention the fact that humans are naturally omnivores, meat and dairy are some of the best sources of proteins and fats and calories to keep us healthy and alive, ESPECIALLY young children for whom adequate nutrition is much more important.

The industry wants you to believe that meat and dairy are the best sources of protein. Wrong. You've been brainwashed.

Humans don't need proteins. We need amino acids. Proteins are chains of amino acids, however, on meat you can only find 12 and on vegetables you can find the 20 we all need. Therefore you can eat a truck of meat a day and still not have enough proteins in your diet.

Milk? Humans are the only mammals that drink milk after infancy. But again, the industry wants to make you believe that you have to consume dairy otherwise your bones will crack and you will die.

And yeah, young children need milk from their mothers. Not from a cow, who produces milk to an animal that has FOUR stomachs.

So many humans drink milk out of fear. And they eat meat out of fear. Because the industry makes you believe. And you become a slave of their product because you can't survive without it.

This might be your job but boiling lobsters alive is cruel. Is that your appropriate use of violence?

I am proud that there is no coagulated blood in my plate. Break free.

And by the way, meat is murder.

[nugz]

Do I have to go out and take a new set of pictures for this thread as well? Its almost as if "Off Topic" is the red headed step child to "General Discussion"

wait, what? sorry, im a little drunk. I'm not completely understanding what you were saying? :o

[Buzzetta]

So many humans drink milk out of fear. And they eat meat out of fear. Because the industry makes you believe. And you become a slave of their product because you can't survive without it.

This might be your job but boiling lobsters alive is cruel. Is that your appropriate use of violence?

I am proud that there is no coagulated blood in my plate. Break free.

And by the way, meat is murder.

I drink milk because it tastes incredibly wonderful with Toll House Chocolate Chip Cookies. If you want I will make a batch right now. I have a roll in my fridge that is screaming to be freed from the confines of it's yellow plastic.

I eat lobster because it is a food source.

Meat that is bred for the purpose of being a food source is not murder it's a food source. You are welcome to come to the bastardized forum known as "other topic" and jump right in. Just make sure that you have read all of Morrissey the 23rd's and my posts regarding each side of the debate so we dont have to repeat ourselves.

[Buzzetta]

wait, what? sorry, im a little drunk. I'm not completely understanding what you were saying? :o

How the last time someone (hint: they dress like the hobo clown - do a google image search or ask bogdana to know what I mean) posted her vegetarian rants I went to McDonalds and took pictures of my cheeseburger consumption.

[nugz]

How the last time someone (hint: they dress like the hobo clown - do a google image search or ask bogdana to know what I mean) posted her vegetarian rants I went to McDonalds and took pictures of my cheeseburger consumption.

ahhhh, yes! you know, when i saw those pictures i fuckin LOLed like i havent LOLed in a long time. thank you for that! :D

[Flax]

And by the way, the "They are raised for it" argument is useless.

You can use that for anything but it wouldn't justify.

If that were a valid argument, you could use that for slavery. What's the matter with exploiting, beating up, raping people? They were raised for it.

Oh yeah, but we all know what happens now. You go back to the argument "but humans are more important than animals". So just before I hear that again: Importance has nothing to do with unnecessary killing and suffering.

What's left? Blood on your plate I guess.

[nugz]

And by the way, the "They are raised for it" argument is useless.

You can use that for anything but it wouldn't justify.

If that were a valid argument, you could use that for slavery. What's the matter with exploiting, beating up, raping people? They were raised for it.

Oh yeah, but we all know what happens now. You go back to the argument "but humans are more important than animals". So just before I hear that again: Importance has nothing to do with unnecessary killing and suffering.

What's left? Blood on your plate I guess.

no blood. i like my steak well done.

[Buzzetta]

And by the way, the "They are raised for it" argument is useless.

You can use that for anything but it wouldn't justify.

If that were a valid argument, you could use that for slavery. What's the matter with exploiting, beating up, raping people? They were raised for it.

Oh yeah, but we all know what happens now. You go back to the argument "but humans are more important than animals". So just before I hear that again: Importance has nothing to do with unnecessary killing and suffering.

What's left? Blood on your plate I guess.

Slavery involved people

Slavery did not involve animals

Tired of the slavery argument

Animals are not people

You PETA terrorist supporting sheep need to stop equating the dutch introduced enslavement of africans to the americas, the spanish enslavement of native americans and the roman enslavement of the poor (among others) to a hamburger.

Animals are not people - as I have so clearly mentioned elsewhere, I would save one human life over 1000 animals any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[nugz]

Slavery involved people

Slavery did not involve animals

Tired of the slavery argument

Animals are not people

You PETA terrorist supporting sheep need to stop equating the dutch introduced enslavement of africans to the americas, the spanish enslavement of native americans and the roman enslavement of the poor (among others) to a hamburger.

Animals are not people - as I have so clearly mentioned elsewhere, I would save one human life over 1000 animals any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

*inserts clapping audience gif*

[esheh195]

*inserts clapping audience gif*

*sighs* I gotta do all the dirty work, don't I? LOL
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_55.gif
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb134/djlivio/applause.gif

[Buzzetta]

*sighs* I gotta do all the dirty work, don't I? LOL
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_55.gif
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb134/djlivio/applause.gif

Nice to see I have a following.

[nogodsnomasters85]

The industry wants you to believe that meat and dairy are the best sources of protein. Wrong. You've been brainwashed.
Humans don't need proteins. We need amino acids. Proteins are chains of amino acids, however, on meat you can only find 12 and on vegetables you can find the 20 we all need. Therefore you can eat a truck of meat a day and still not have enough proteins in your diet.
Milk? Humans are the only mammals that drink milk after infancy. But again, the industry wants to make you believe that you have to consume dairy otherwise your bones will crack and you will die.
And yeah, young children need milk from their mothers. Not from a cow, who produces milk to an animal that has FOUR stomachs.
So many humans drink milk out of fear. And they eat meat out of fear. Because the industry makes you believe. And you become a slave of their product because you can't survive without it.
This might be your job but boiling lobsters alive is cruel. Is that your appropriate use of violence?
I am proud that there is no coagulated blood in my plate. Break free.
And by the way, meat is murder.

I'm not a nutritionist, some of the studies I looked up online went both ways, I'd like to see something by a pediatrician that says it's safe to raise an infant vegan. But you still haven't provided a logical framework for you're beliefs. You believe meat is MURDER,IE-a heinous, wrongful destruction of human (according to the dictionary) life. Where is the cutoff point? Is the killing of ALL non-sentient life murder? Well than salad is murder, and so's bread because yeast is alive. We can also rule out antibiotics. Is you're criteria things that feel pain? I imagine mosquitos and ticks don't enjoy being crushed very much. Theres' no rush to protect them, they aren't necessarily immediately dangerous although sometimes they can spread disease. Moreover, ahem, MURDER is inappropriate terminology when the act of "killing" is done for survival. And, unless you ACTUALLY believe that boiling a lobster is NO DIFFERENT than killing a child, stop saying it because you don't actually believe it. It's just an empty slogan. And since we're in this debate you know what we can all agree is murder? MURDER! Of which war is the greatest expression as it is murder multiplied exponentially. This government is in an illegal immoral war in which people are dying every day and you're upset about the chickens. If you want to protect life so badly join peacecorps, doctors without borders, donate to oxfam or amnesty international, THAT'S protecting life.

[underdog99]

hitler was not a vegetarian

http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Neither-Vegetarian-Animal-Lover/dp/0962616966

and even if he was that doesn't somehow completely refute vegetarianism. Also, if you do so happen to be swayed by other people's stance on vegetarianism you would have to take into consideration how many of history's greatest thinkers, philosophers, artists, and authors were vegetarian; Da Vinci, Henry D. Thoreau, Einstein, Darwin, Gandhi, PAMELA ANDERSON (thats a bad joke)....

[esheh195]

hitler was not a vegetarian

http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Neither-Vegetarian-Animal-Lover/dp/0962616966

and even if he was that doesn't somehow completely refute vegetarianism. Also, if you do so happen to be swayed by other people's stance on vegetarianism you would have to take into consideration how many of history's greatest thinkers, philosophers, artists, and authors were vegetarian; Da Vinci, Henry D. Thoreau, Einstein, Darwin, Gandhi, PAMELA ANDERSON (thats a bad joke)....

Pam Anderson does too eat meat! I saw the video! :D:eek:

[Anaesthesine]

I'm going to have to learn how to use that multi-quote function if I'm ever going to try to argue effectively.

Until then, let me just invoke Isaac Bashevis Singer. A Polish Jew who knew the horrors of the Nazi regime first-hand, he was also a fervent vegetarian who regularly drew parallels between the death-factories of the concentration camps and the mechanized slaughter of animals. His mother and brother were taken away in cattle trains to the camps, where they died. Singer was no armchair PETA activist. He lived it, and he stood by his vegetarian beliefs until the day he died.

He wished to pray to a vegetarian god. He re-wrote the ten commandments to include an 11th: "Do not Kill nor exploit the animal, don't eat it's flesh, don't flail its hide, don't force it to do things against its nature."

There are so many sides to this complex argument, but I cannot stand to hear meat-eaters smugly insisting that they have a stronger grip on morality.

"In relation to [animals], all people are Nazis; for the animals, it is an eternal Treblinka." This is the opinion of a man who was there.

[Paulc]

ok big picture stuff:

Please forgive my simplistic logic. In Britain there about 58million people, the vast majority of whom eat meat - i think there are less than 1.5million veggies and vegans. In a year 1 billion animals and fish are slaughtered for the food industry in this country. 1 billion!!!

So factor that up for the population of the planet as a whole - 6 billion people would consume something like 1 trillion animals and fish (i am not a mathmetician!) - i know Britain has a very high standard of living compared to many other countries but taking that into account - the numbers are horrifying.

The point i am trying to make is if the population is going to continue to grow (and most forecasts say we are looking at 20 billion people by 2050) then how the hell are we going to have enough land to farm that many animals. I think more people are going to be forced into vegetarian lifestyles whether they like it or not.

I am a meat eater. I spent about 3 years as a veggie but just missed eating meat too much. I wish i had better willpower because fundamentally i think Meat is Murder.

By the way the book "fast food nation" is a really interesting read especially the chapters about the disgusting meat industries in the US.

[Morrissey the 23rd]

There is too much apathy in the world but who cares?

[esheh195]

There is too much apathy in the world but who cares?

That made me LOL. :D

[Amatis]

I simply have never heard a philosophically sound argument for it. Some say "All life is sacred" which sounds nice but is really hippie crap and total nonsense, what about rodents, insects, yeast, or bacteria and diseases, all are life, and many veggos/vegans don't care about them.

The vast majority of arguments for vegetarianism that I have encountered do not propose that all life is sacred and equal. You're right, that's new age hippie crap and in my opinion, along with the PETA wackos standing outside KFC in chicken costumes, does nothing but spread a lot of false ideas and turn the movement into a farce.

The proposition is not that animals are equal to us in intelligence or morality or whatever other fairly arbitrary distinctions one cares to create between humans and the rest of the animal world, it's that they are capable of suffering and therefore as a supposedly moral and superior race we should not inflict unnecessary suffering upon them (assertions based on crass self-interest, ignorance about basic nutrition and the like do not count).

In regards to rodents and insects, vegetarians eat neither of those. As far as plants and bacteria go, my (extremely basic) knowledge of biology tells me that they have no discernable central nervous system and therefore cannot feel pain on anywhere near the same level as animals do, if at all.

But let's forget all that and say that plants do feel pain. Consider the piece of meat on your place. It might come from a cow or pig or some other animal, it doesn't really matter. How many plants do you think would have to have been fed to that animal to sustain it for, say 4-5 years until it has achieved sufficient growth to be sent to slaughter? Surely one would inflict less suffering on the plant population by consuming them directly instead of consuming the remains of an animal that has been fed many, many times that amount? Taking it a step further, how many acres of forest would've been felled to create grazing land for those animals?

Secondly the insinuation that simply eating meat is a predecessor to violence is a load of crap, hitler was a vegetarian.

Godwin's Law! :P Hitler wasn't a vegetarian, that's a common misconception. There are many accounts of him eating meat on occasion. Besides, that sort of logic is a load of guff. It's like claiming you can infer something about meat-eaters from the fact that Stalin was one. I'm sure even the crackpots at PETA wouldn't stoop that low.

And anyway, I haven't really heard that before, that eating meat would predispose one to violence. Doubtless killing another animal is a form of violence, but that's irrelevant because people do not kill and eat their own animals; they get other people to do it for them. The violence used to kill animals for food would surely only impact the behaviour of those who work in slaughterhouses?

Violence is a maladjusted behaviorism when it is used indiscriminately or inappropriately, and there IS an appropriate use for violence.

Killing other animals for food, clothing, entertainment when we can live perfectly healthy and comfortable lives without doing so is an appropriate use of violence? Clearly 'No gods, no masters' only applies to our species eh?

And calling meat murder is nothing more than empty sloganeering, anyone who truly believes that is RETARDED. I have to prepare lobsters at my work, I don't like but I have to and I am DAMN sure that doing this in no way makes me capable of killing a child, or any other innocent person.

By claiming that 'meat is murder', I don't think most vegetarians are trying to say that killing an animal is exactly the same as killing a person. The point being put across is that animals share many of the traits humans do, the key one being the ability to feel pain, fear, etc (regardless of Descartes' assertions, the tosspot). In this respect, killing a person and killing an animal can both be classed as murder as both involve ending the life of an animal which is capable of suffering.

I don't think boiling lobsters means you're going to go on a rampage or owt, it's just indicative of our socialisation really. We're brought up to think that 'they're just animals', which is why some people are capable of slitting their throats and boiling them alive and all that. We have become completely separated from our food. It's not a cow, it's a burger. We don't have to think about how it's produced because it all happens far away in some shed somewhere. Out of sight out of mind, aye? It's a lot easier to go on believing that the steak on your plate grew up in a nice field with fresh air and space to move about, to come up with some rationalization rather than actually make an effort to change an often lifelong habit.

I'm all for protecting animals, the ones who's ecosystems are being destroyed, but these animals are deliberately raised for food, the population remains unharmed.

What about the ecosystem being destroyed by modern intensive farming methods? What about all the land being cleared for livestock to graze on? What about the utter waste of fossil fuels required to turn animal feed into meat? All the waste from factories and slaughterhouses being dumped into rivers?

The fact that they're deliberately raised for food doesn't change the morality of killing them. Is it morally acceptable to treat a human being as a slave or inflict cruelty upon them purely because they have endured this from birth?

Not to mention the fact that humans are naturally omnivores, meat and dairy are some of the best sources of proteins and fats and calories to keep us healthy and alive, ESPECIALLY young children for whom adequate nutrition is much more important.

Just because we're 'naturally omnivores' doesn't mean we have to continue doing so. We've evolved to the stage where we have a choice in the matter. Protein can be obtained from a lot of sources other than meat and dairy, mainly pulses and grains. Even I can make beans on toast. The kind of fat found in meat and dairy is of the yucky saturated kind that causes high cholesterol, whereas foods like avocados and nuts contain the good kind of fats that, er, don't lead to heart attacks.

Raising a vegetarian or vegan child is perfectly fine if the parent knows what they're doing. Most of the veg*ns I've met are pretty into cooking and nutrition and all that - surely a diet filled with a variety of fresh fruit and vegetables, grains, pulses, nuts and seeds etc. with the exclusion of animal flesh is better than a diet of crisps, sweets and ready meals? I know what I'm feeding my hypothetical kid anyway.

Christ, that was long. I'm off to toast my falafel over the charred remains of a vivisector. You know, as you do.

[underdog99]

wow, thorough post

no gods, no masters, very true, I believe in the same thing, I just include animals :cool:

[shirleytemple]

I'm a vegeterian
The thing that really really hurts me is the way some animals get killed during the process, you know, like the slitting of their throats and their slow painful deaths. It isnt the fact that they get killed, it's the way they get killed that gets to me. I know there probably won't be solutions to this problem, so until then I'll refrain from eating meat. I do beleive some animals were made to be eaten. I just wish it wasn't savage and merciless!

[Not Right in the Head]

As of now, the voting is heavily in favor of meat being murder. Perhaps a more pertinent question should be whether murder is unequivocably evil.

[CrystalGeezer]

Maybe Morrissey is really just a proponent of unleavened bread? We've been going about this debate all wrong for all these years.

[nogodsnomasters85]

The vast majority of arguments for vegetarianism that I have encountered do not propose that all life is sacred and equal. You're right, that's new age hippie crap and in my opinion, along with the PETA wackos standing outside KFC in chicken costumes, does nothing but spread a lot of false ideas and turn the movement into a farce.
We are in TOTAL agreement....
The proposition is not that animals are equal to us in intelligence or morality or whatever other fairly arbitrary distinctions one cares to create between humans and the rest of the animal world, it's that they are capable of suffering and therefore as a supposedly moral and superior race we should not inflict unnecessary suffering upon them (assertions based on crass self-interest, ignorance about basic nutrition and the like do not count).
The claws come out.. Well, we can't argue very much on this point as it comes down to a matter of opinion. That killing animals for food is morally wrong. I think this should be done in the quickest and least painful manner, I won't eat veal (except for the extremely rare scenario where someone else has already prepared it, like a social event.) and I think the animals should be allowed to graze and not have to be pumped up with antibiotics. This is ultimately an unbridgeable chasm, as i said it's a matter of opinion.
In regards to rodents and insects, vegetarians eat neither of those.
I didn't mean to suggest they do, but I bet more than a few KILL them, and they DO feel pain.
Godwin's Law! :P Hitler wasn't a vegetarian, that's a common misconception. There are many accounts of him eating meat on occasion. Besides, that sort of logic is a load of guff. It's like claiming you can infer something about meat-eaters from the fact that Stalin was one. I'm sure even the crackpots at PETA wouldn't stoop that low.{/QUOTE]
Several on this forum have, well, I don't think stalin was the example, but the inference is the same.. and while not being necessarily a strict vegetarian, hitler generally abstained from meat, especially towards the end where he mostly lived on pastries.
[QUOTE=Amatis;732954]And anyway, I haven't really heard that before, that eating meat would predispose one to violence. Doubtless killing another animal is a form of violence, but that's irrelevant because people do not kill and eat their own animals; they get other people to do it for them. The violence used to kill animals for food would surely only impact the behaviour of those who work in slaughterhouses?
I bet most are probably just very poor people, probably quite a few immigrants, and it's probably a very well-paying blue-collar job, that someone without a degree could get to support they're family. I'd be much more wary of postal workers, as they seem to be the most likely to snap.
Killing other animals for food, clothing, entertainment when we can live perfectly healthy and comfortable lives without doing so is an appropriate use of violence? Clearly 'No gods, no masters' only applies to our species eh?
Well, the "no gods" part applies to all species as god is a mythological construct, in many ways not so different from robin hood or the cat in the hat, but the masters part, absolutely. Exactly.
By claiming that 'meat is murder', I don't think most vegetarians are trying to say that killing an animal is exactly the same as killing a person. The point being put across is that animals share many of the traits humans do, the key one being the ability to feel pain, fear, etc (regardless of Descartes' assertions, the tosspot). In this respect, killing a person and killing an animal can both be classed as murder as both involve ending the life of an animal which is capable of suffering.
Well, actually, the DICTIONARY defines murder as the killing of a human being, specifically. This is EXACTLY why the word is used. Even if said individuals aren't actually retarded enough to believe that they are the same, is deliberately invoking the word to draw comparison where there shouldn't be.
It's a lot easier to go on believing that the steak on your plate grew up in a nice field with fresh air and space to move about, to come up with some rationalization rather than actually make an effort to change an often lifelong habit.
I would prefer that the animals suffer as little as possible, as stated, but I have no illusions, I used to work in a butchers' shop, and I still do occasionally. They don't get WHOLE cows there, but many large segments, and they look like what they are. I have no illusions that a steak simply materializes on a plate.
The fact that they're deliberately raised for food doesn't change the morality of killing them. Is it morally acceptable to treat a human being as a slave or inflict cruelty upon them purely because they have endured this from birth?
It COMPLETELY changes the morality of killing them. Anyone who kills animals not for food, safety, or survival, is a sadist. This is the biggest precursor to serial murder. (The REAL kind.) regardless of the fact that a grown human being CAN survive without eating meat, it is not killed and eaten for the joy of taking it's life, it is done to aid in survival, even if it is not imperative. Now you're doing something equally rediculous to the aforementioned slogan by comparing penned animals to slaves. If I was black i'd probably find that a lot more offensive, but regardless it's a rediculous analogy. You're doing the same thing, comparing those who keep livestock to slave traders. Preposterous.
foods like avocados and nuts contain the good kind of fats that, er, don't lead to heart attacks. {/QUOTE]
Well, if you gorge yourself consistantly thats' probably true... However, a sensible diet that meets you're basic dietary needs is not necessarily harmful at all. Moreover, this generally only affects the obese, which i already discounted, and the middle aged, mostly men, as heart disease is rare in women. Also metabolism plays a huge part. My diet consists of pizza, whole milk, burgers, ribs, subs, etc, but i have a very fast metabolism and i eat sometimes four (or more) meals a day and retain a consistant weight, I'm even fairly thin, I didn't gain weight until I started drinking a lot of beer. How much vegetable matter would I have to consume to be equivalent?
[QUOTE=Amatis;732954]Raising a vegetarian or vegan child is perfectly fine if the parent knows what they're doing.
Is there anything printed by a PEDIATRICIAN that says that it is totally safe to raise a child vegan from birth? all I found was stuff written by vegans, not doctors, and even if a nutritionist says so, it's not the same.
I have to give you one thing, you're the smartest veggo I've ever argued with, however thats' not too much of a compliment.

[celibate]

I won't go into philosophic debate

but IMHO we humans feed, grow and kill animals

so yes humans eat flesh, but humans do good things for animals also
[which humans are the cause, basic problem]

[nogodsnomasters85]

There are so many sides to this complex argument, but I cannot stand to hear meat-eaters smugly insisting that they have a stronger grip on morality.

"In relation to [animals], all people are Nazis; for the animals, it is an eternal Treblinka." This is the opinion of a man who was there.

You know hearing the broccoli brigade insist they have stronger morals doesn't exactly tickle me.

I'll take you're word for it that this Jewish guy actually existed and said the things he said, and, frankly, it's great that you used a quote because if it was you saying theres' no difference between a meat plant and auschwitz you'd be WAYYY off base. i mean, not only is the idea RETARDED, and REDICULOUS.. It's OFFENSIVE, and totally trivializes the suffering those people endured. I would dare you to look up holocaust survivors and ask them if they think what's done to livestock is morally the same as what was done to them, I suggest you wear protective gear. I was raised catholic (unfortunately), but any jewish person should be severely offended by that. PETA got introuble a while back for putting up posters of cattle side by side with pictures of jews in the camps, as I recall there was a massive outcry from survivors. Theres' no comparison.

[Buzzetta]

As of now, the voting is heavily in favor of meat being murder. Perhaps a more pertinent question should be whether murder is unequivocably evil.

Mi amigo (honestly and sincerely with all due respect) ...

The poll HERE states that the majority believe that meat is murder. That is clearly not an indicative vote of the subject matter. Despite the fact that I do not believe so, if I was on the other side of the issue I would be hard pressed to admit otherwise.

We are on a Morrissey BB.... I would claim that 1/4 of those votes are from the souls that say its okay because Morrissey says so. Lets be realistic. There are certain people here that follow like sheep.

On top of that some people identify with Morrissey because of his vegetarian standpoint and are thereby attracted to said website. If this poll were conducted on an alternate BB then the results could be widely different.

[Buzzetta]

You know hearing the broccoli brigade insist they have stronger morals doesn't exactly tickle me.

I'll take you're word for it that this Jewish guy actually existed and said the things he said, and, frankly, it's great that you used a quote because if it was you saying theres' no difference between a meat plant and auschwitz you'd be WAYYY off base. i mean, not only is the idea RETARDED, and REDICULOUS.. It's OFFENSIVE, and totally trivializes the suffering those people endured. I would dare you to look up holocaust survivors and ask them if they think what's done to livestock is morally the same as what was done to them, I suggest you wear protective gear. I was raised catholic (unfortunately), but any jewish person should be severely offended by that. PETA got introuble a while back for putting up posters of cattle side by side with pictures of jews in the camps, as I recall there was a massive outcry from survivors. Theres' no comparison.

I like ya... even though you are from Boston.... I like ya kid....

That word apparently is taboo.... I encountered a shitstorm when I used it so beware.

[Not Right in the Head]

Mi amigo (honestly and sincerely with all due respect) ...

The poll HERE states that the majority believe that meat is murder. That is clearly not an indicative vote of the subject matter. Despite the fact that I do not believe so, if I was on the other side of the issue I would be hard pressed to admit otherwise.

We are on a Morrissey BB.... I would claim that 1/4 of those votes are from the souls that say its okay because Morrissey says so. Lets be realistic. There are certain people here that follow like sheep.

On top of that some people identify with Morrissey because of his vegetarian standpoint and are thereby attracted to said website. If this poll were conducted on an alternate BB then the results could be widely different.

Hahaha! I know that the poll is absurdly biased; I was just jerking the collective chain here.

That word apparently is taboo.... I encountered a shitstorm when I used it so beware.

I knew that you'd not only quote that post, but highlight the offending word. Some things are just meant to be.

[Buzzetta]

Hahaha! I know that the poll is absurdly biased; I was just jerking the collective chain here.



I knew that you'd not only quote that post, but highlight the offending word. Some things are just meant to be.

Still me online amigo...

Excellent

I was texting Nugz before ... started when my boys were talking about the game that goes on between the MTA and the NYPD of where the drunks should sit while they are wasted. Sent her a picture of the drugged out girl on the L train from the other day.

[Anaesthesine]

You know hearing the broccoli brigade insist they have stronger morals doesn't exactly tickle me.

I'll take you're word for it that this Jewish guy actually existed and said the things he said, and, frankly, it's great that you used a quote because if it was you saying theres' no difference between a meat plant and auschwitz you'd be WAYYY off base. i mean, not only is the idea RETARDED, and REDICULOUS.. It's OFFENSIVE, and totally trivializes the suffering those people endured. I would dare you to look up holocaust survivors and ask them if they think what's done to livestock is morally the same as what was done to them, I suggest you wear protective gear. I was raised catholic (unfortunately), but any jewish person should be severely offended by that. PETA got introuble a while back for putting up posters of cattle side by side with pictures of jews in the camps, as I recall there was a massive outcry from survivors. Theres' no comparison.

How sad, that someone would doubt the existence of Isaac Bashevis Singer. He won the Nobel Prize for literature and was taught in many American classrooms until a few years ago. Now I suppose he's considered to be a bit too liberal, since he valued tolerance and peace. Know your history before you discount it. At least google, for goodness sake.

I think you would have liked him. He was a very deep, philosophical thinker, and a writer of great generosity. He also gave much thought to the nature of evil, and the power of human forgiveness and compassion. His writings are also pretty funny, which is a miracle in itself. His views on vegetarianism hold weight with me, since his father was a rabbi, and he himself was a journalist. His background was one of faith and reason. He grew up poor, in a Jewish ghetto, and the argument that only the pampered middle-classes concern themselves with compassion for animals is blown apart.

Why be so angry on behalf of Jews who have suffered, and made their moral choices? I'm sure there are many survivors who would be offended by the comparison between abattoirs and the camps, but there are some who would agree with it. It's true, that PETA campaign was terribly misguided, but it was actually based on the opinions of a man who suffered greatly, but did not let his experiences, or the sufferings of his people dampen his compassion for all living things.

Your indignation seems misplaced. Vegetarians are not starting wars, or subverting democracy, or flying planes into buildings, or undermining endangered species laws, or polluting the air and water. They are not turning back women's rights, or consolidating the media, or perpetuating ethnic clensing. Nor are they torturing, assassinating or otherwise undermining the peaceful pursuit of international justice.

You are so self-righteous in your defence of steak, drumsticks, and the prevailing meat-eating culture. What is it about tofu and broccoli that upsets you so, that you would spend all this time and energy in several threads denouncing people who prefer seitan to turkey?

By the way, "No Gods, No Masters" has always been my motto. You are currently fighting on behalf of the prevailing corporate power structure, which flies in the face of everything that I always understood the anarchist movement to stand for. I suppose this could be post-modern ironic commentary on your part, but I sense a real grievance. Enjoy Ronald McDonald's company - anarchy has finally swallowed it's own tail.

[Flax]

I won't eat veal (except for the extremely rare scenario where someone else has already prepared it, like a social event.)

I had decided not to post anything here anymore because I know this discussion is not going anywhere, but I just wanted to say that this part was quite funny.

Flax
Broccoli Brigade

[*EqualOpportunityHater*]

http://www.rrrina.com/321-agri.gif

http://www.hkrl.com/images/slaughterhouse.jpg

Yep, it's murder :mad:

[Flax]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GhxKnys7Ryw

[*EqualOpportunityHater*]

^^^

GhxKnys7Ryw


I fucking hate those assholes who kill them poor animals... HATE them to the ultimate max!!!! :mad:

[Buzzetta]

You lose all grounds for your argument when you try to equate an animal to a human. You lose all grounds for your argument when you insinuate that vegetarians are not of a disposition to commit a heinous crime due to a dietary practice.

[Amy]

When I was around 7 or 8 years old, I went to a family wedding and they served a pink meat on my plate. It was the most delicious meat I had ever tasted. A few years later, I found out it was 'rosé veal'. It unnerved me, enormously.

[Flax]

You lose all grounds for your argument when you try to equate an animal to a human. You lose all grounds for your argument when you insinuate that vegetarians are not of a disposition to commit a heinous crime due to a dietary practice.

Nobody is equating animal to humans.
This is not a question of similarity. It's a question of respect.

We're obviously all different and that doesn't mean we can't respect each other.

It's not a matter of who is superior or inferior, it's a matter that the animals have the ability to suffer, and they feel pain, just like we do. That's why they try to defend themselves. But they can't.

And even if those were our arguments, we wouldn't lose any grounds.

The notion that you can exploit other beings just because you feel superior to them is the SAME exact pattern that makes humans exploit other humans because of different gender or race.

We can all suffer. We can all feel pain. Period.

[Buzzetta]

Nobody is equating animal to humans.
This is not a question of similarity. It's a question of respect.

We're obviously all different and that doesn't mean we can't respect each other.

It's not a matter of who is superior or inferior, it's a matter that the animals have the ability to suffer, and they feel pain, just like we do. That's why they try to defend themselves. But they can't.

And even if those were our arguments, we wouldn't lose any grounds.

The notion that you can exploit other beings just because you feel superior to them is the SAME exact pattern that makes humans exploit other humans because of different gender or race.

We can all suffer. We can all feel pain. Period.

There you go to equating what you perceive as animal suffering to real human suffering. When you stated the idea that an argument that animals raised as a food source, (because they are bred for it) is ultimately the same mindset that people had in the early 1800's you are equating animals to humans. Your argument is baseless upon those who look at animals as a food source.

You can disagree with that perception but you cannot base an argument around your belief system if the other person does not share in the basic status of the subject in question.

The chickens in the coup are bred, basically designed and exist for the sole purpose of providing a food source. Their designed end is to be on a plate. Humans are superior to animals by birth and right. If you disagree with the species lottery I suggest you go talk to the big guy upstairs and see if you can arrange it to come back as a poodle or something to voice your disdain.

If anything I would look upon the poll that was conducted in this thread as a loss for vegetarians. Here we are on probably one of the most pro-vegetarian pro-terrorism (PETA is a terrorist supporting group) meeting ground and 1/3 of the people here disagree with the idea that eating meat is the equivalent to murder. This would be the equivalent of going to a NRA board and for 1/3 of the people to agree that there should be tougher gun laws.

[Buzzetta]

when did this become a competition?



I don't agree with your analogy. going to a peta board would be the same as going to a nra board. and besides, being pro-vegetarian does not equate with being pro-terrorism. not all of us are supporters of peta.

I never said pro-vegetarianism is akin to pro-terrorism. Pro-PETA is akin to pro-terrorism. Unless you are unaware of PETA's full actions, being Pro PETA is supporting a terrorist agent. PETA's accounting have financed numerous contributions to those on trial and convicted for committing violent acts against those they perceive as against their cause. This has been exposed numerous times. PETA has made contributions towards convicted members and those that await trial of those affiliated with ELF and other movements. How is this any different from certain middle eastern countries giving monetary compensation to the families of suicide bombers?

It is okay though... I honestly believe that most supporters of PETA are blindsided by their vegetarian choice and are unaware of what the group is fully about.

[Buzzetta]

I am aware of all of this, hence my reasons for not supporting peta, however, due to my existence on this board (and no doubt others who share this view) to claim that this board is a "meeting ground" for those who are pro-vegetarian and pro-terrorism is a bit of a stretch. the only thing you could claim this board to be is a meeting ground for morrissey fans. other than that we are all fairly disperate with various life experiences, interests and beliefs as previous polls on any number of topics have shown.

This is not a meeting ground per-se but a forum where people are going to be drawn to Morrissey's music. It also draws those that will support things that Morrissey does as that is why they may identify or like his music. There are also the sheep that swoon and follow Morrissey saying that "anything he does is great because he is Morrissey."

Hey - i love the guy's music but the majority of things that come out of his mouth on a political standpoint are pure drivel.

[CrystalGeezer]

i do agree on the sheep element though.

I find people in general like to follow. Morrissey happens to be a herder for lovesick outcasts. I do caution those who follow him not to take him so literally. On another thread a poster lamented they didn't like when he put his hands to his temple as if to shoot himself. It's a symbolic gesture I'm not certain all followers are privy to understand. It's possible his vegetarian cause is the same though I suspect he really is a vegetarian. It doesn't hurt to question our herders.

And it's not that they like to follow, they need to follow. Morrissey is a good man to follow.

[joevsw0rld]

If animals could they would eat us.

[Flax]

Yeah, Buzzetta is right about the link between PETA and terrorism... I've seen it with my own eyes.

The other day I saw a member from PETA blow himself up with a tofu bomb and soy sauce in front of a McDonald's... it splashed soy sauce all over the place.

Scary!

[Not Right in the Head]

Yeah, Buzzetta is right about the link between PETA and terrorism... I've seen it with my own eyes.

The other day I saw a member from PETA blow himself up with a tofu bomb and soy sauce in front of a McDonald's... it splashed soy sauce all over the place.

Scary!

In other words, it was a soy bomb?

http://www.bobbyfugly.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/soybomb.jpg

[Flax]

If animals could they would eat us.

Herbivores wouldn't.
This is such a weak point that I don't even know why I'm responding to this.

[Flax]

In other words, it was a soy bomb?


aaaahhh that's the guy!
he is a member of the extremist group called Broccoli Brigade

[Buzzetta]

Yeah, Buzzetta is right about the link between PETA and terrorism... I've seen it with my own eyes.

The other day I saw a member from PETA blow himself up with a tofu bomb and soy sauce in front of a McDonald's... it splashed soy sauce all over the place.

Scary!

How misguided and inept your beliefs are.

Why not read about Rodney Coronado, Fran Trutt and A.L.F. and how PETA paid large "donations" as they refer to it towards their "needs". Rodney was convicted of blowing up a research lab, Franny got pinched on attempted murder and ALF? ALF advocates and encourages their loose member base to commit acts of violence to achieve goals. Why did I say loose member base? Because the higher-ups light the the fuze and walk away then shrug the responsibility off so they can deny culpability.

You still fail to address how that model is any different than Middle Eastern terrorist groups rewarding the families of suicide bombers? Lets see Hamas, and certain agencies within Syria will contribute to a family under the guise that someone has to take care of them once you are dead. ... So long as you detonated a bomb within a Israeli marketplace or bus. PETA contributes money to the families of those that are CONVICTED of blowing up property, attempted murder and other acts of violence. Looks like the Broccoli Brigade loses their argument that vegetarians are passive by nature or by diet. (Which I have read the idiotic claims of.)

60 Minutes, The New York Times and other reputable news sources have uncovered and explicitly shown the relationship between PETA and the terrorist groups it supports.

In response, Ingrid Newkirk simply states...
“I find it small wonder that the laboratories aren’t all burning to the ground. If I had more guts, I’d light a match.”


I am meeting my friends at 9 for dinner...

In your honor I will eat something with meat. I will even take a picture and post it tomorrow.

[Flax]

I don't need to read about Rod Coronado. I even have the cd "Ceremony of Fire - A Tribute To Rod Coronado".

Anyway... what I hear now is bla bla bla bla Syria bla bla terrorist bla bla bla if we don't fight them there they'll follow us home bla bla bla they hate us for our freedom bla bla bla I like hamburgers. :)

Mr. President! I didn't know you were a Morrissey fan!

[Flax]

Buzzetta threatened to eat lots of meat! What will we do? Oh no!

Time to call the Broccoli Brigade:

http://www.lettuceladies.com/images/paulface.jpg

[nogodsnomasters85]

I like ya... even though you are from Boston.... I like ya kid....

That word apparently is taboo.... I encountered a shitstorm when I used it so beware.

Thanx. It's the Bostonian in me, though if you're from here you're supposed to pronounce it "Retahhhded."

[CrystalGeezer]

Poor Bob's thinking, "what the fuck?"

[Morrissey the 23rd]

He is doing more to promote animal liberation than he realises. Perhaps for every pound he eats, we should donate 10 to the ALF.

It is like Theos' right wing posts giving weight and increased credibility to the left.

[nogodsnomasters85]

How sad, that someone would doubt the existence of Isaac Bashevis Singer. He won the Nobel Prize for literature and was taught in many American classrooms until a few years ago. Now I suppose he's considered to be a bit too liberal, since he valued tolerance and peace. Know your history before you discount it. At least google, for goodness sake.

History happens to be on of my favorite subjects, but that doesn't mean I'd necessarily be familiar with this person and that he existed or did not was irrelevent in the context of my argument. Not to mention Henry Kissinger won a nobel prize and he's a mass murder
His background was one of faith and reason. He grew up poor, in a Jewish ghetto, and the argument that only the pampered middle-classes concern themselves with compassion for animals is blown apart.
Religious faith and reason are opposites. Religion is a mental disease, and the world would be better without it. Yes, it is POSSIBLE for the poor classes to be concerned with social issues, I'm lower middle class, blue collar, living check to check, and I take politics and social issues very seriously, however it is true that the poorer someone is the less likely to have the oppertunity for a decent education, or, in my case, the free time to be politically/socially active.
Why be so angry on behalf of Jews who have suffered, and made their moral choices? I'm sure there are many survivors who would be offended by the comparison between abattoirs and the camps, but there are some who would agree with it.
I wouldn't look to holocaust survivors for support on this one, some might agree, most would be deeply offended and hurt. And I'm so angry because there apparently aren't any jews here TO be hurt and offended, so I have to act on they're behalf.
It's true, that PETA campaign was terribly misguided,
You are so goddamn right.
Your indignation seems misplaced. Vegetarians are not starting wars, or subverting democracy, or flying planes into buildings, or undermining endangered species laws, or polluting the air and water. They are not turning back women's rights, or consolidating the media, or perpetuating ethnic clensing. Nor are they torturing, assassinating or otherwise undermining the peaceful pursuit of international justice.
You came so close to the point then sailed into left field. i would LOVE to tell you why I'm so fucking angry. Because the united states government has and continues to provide military support for brutal dictatorships, is engaging in an illegal and immoral war, the current administration is unsure if global warming exists while the planet is decaying, and is trying to take away a woman's right to choose, meanwhile supporting economic policies that allow sweatshops to pop up like daises, allow western megacorporations to decimate foreign markets with cheap goods, thrust millions into poverty, keep the third world from obtaining desperately needed medical supplies, etc. Or how these policies affect us here in america, where unemployment is rising, wages are stagnating, debt is multiplying, etc., etc. I may not do much, but i spend a large part of my time writing congressmen, signing petitions, making, admittedly, very tiny, donations, etc., etc. I'm not looking for praise, just trying to explain. i try to support legitimate organizations like Amnesty Intnatl. Save Darfur, World Can't Wait, or lesser knowns like SOA Watch, and ETAN.
You are so self-righteous in your defence of steak, drumsticks, and the prevailing meat-eating culture. What is it about tofu and broccoli that upsets you so, that you would spend all this time and energy in several threads denouncing people who prefer seitan to turkey?

THIS is what i'm getting to. i think of these groups I think of all the HUMAN suffering, and misery, and death, and hunger, and poverty,.......and then some jackoff tries to get me wound up about this shit and I get so fucking pissed I can hardly see straight. Every ounce of effort you pour into this misguided cause could've been spent doing something that ACTUALLY MATTERS. I feel guilty for the little that I do, I should be in the third world, or in washington protesting outside the white house, devoting every breath, every second to what I know matters more than anything, don't you DARE try to tug on my heartstrings over cows and chickens.

You are currently fighting on behalf of the prevailing corporate power structure, which flies in the face of everything that I always understood the anarchist movement to stand for. ... Enjoy Ronald McDonald's company - anarchy has finally swallowed it's own tail.
First of all i never claimed to speak for anarchists as a whole and wouldn't want to. secondly, REDICULOUS! Fuzzy logic at best. Supporting meat does not automatically mean supporting big corporations or modern capitalism, some people still do it the old fashioned way, although i am not one. Secondly,...what are you on about??? How do you suppose I can avoid supporting corporations in this country. What do you think I'm typing on? IBM supplied the third reich. Yahoo (And google, I think.) are friendly with the regime in china. Even if you're a vegetarian, so what, the government of guatemala was largely overthrown (and replaced with a brutal genocidal dictatorship) on behalf of united fruit. I avoid SOME companies, like I stopped drinking killians because they donate to the republican party, but boycotting is nearly impossible in a post-globalization age. The ONLY solution is direct action, and legislation. Thats' elementary logic.

[Buzzetta]

I don't need to read about Rod Coronado. I even have the cd "Ceremony of Fire - A Tribute To Rod Coronado".

Anyway... what I hear now is bla bla bla bla Syria bla bla terrorist bla bla bla if we don't fight them there they'll follow us home bla bla bla they hate us for our freedom bla bla bla I like hamburgers. :)

Mr. President! I didn't know you were a Morrissey fan!

Maybe if you looked past your rear end / head (both of your ends seem to spew defecation) you would not be so ignorant and look into the group you so blindly support. I just got home... had a fun evening out... Got home just in time to eat breakfast.

I stopped off and bought a Bacon egg tomato and cheese on an everything bagel. I will eat half now and save half for later. For dinner I had the TGI Fridays Southwest Chicken Salad.... so good... it's new on the menu. I suggested to my friends to have the New York Strip Steak going on how good it was and you know what? One of them did. The other ordered two appetizers of chicken based dishes. Thats the beauty of NY. We are the ones that never sleep. Something is always open.

All the while I received a text message from a certain someone to leave a new picture.... So... here is my breakfast. It's tasty. I'm all about PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals that is.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd65/Buzzetta_photos/Photo181.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd65/Buzzetta_photos/Photo187.jpg

[Buzzetta]

Thanx. It's the Bostonian in me, though if you're from here you're supposed to pronounce it "Retahhhded."

Congratulations to the people of MA... Pats had a tough season doing what they did. It was nice to see that the Giants went balls out and put their best up to maintain the integrity of the game. No one can say that the Pats had an easy time of it.

Not since 1972 has there been an undefeated season.

[nugz]

I stopped off and bought a Bacon egg tomato and cheese on an everything bagel. I will eat half now and save half for later. For dinner I had the TGI Fridays Southwest Chicken Salad.... so good... it's new on the menu. I suggested to my friends to have the New York Strip Steak going on how good it was and you know what? One of them did. The other ordered two appetizers of chicken based dishes. Thats the beauty of NY. We are the ones that never sleep. Something is always open.



shizzle. that sounds delishuz. i'm hungry now, thx. :mad::p

[Buzzetta]

shizzle. that sounds delishuz. i'm hungry now, thx. :mad::p

Atlantic City Room at the Tropicana on New Years Eve... $725.... WTF?

My friends and I were toying with the idea of being a part of that insanity. But not for $800 after tax for a single room.

[nugz]

Atlantic City Room at the Tropicana on New Years Eve... $725.... WTF?

My friends and I were toying with the idea of being a part of that insanity. But not for $800 after tax for a single room.

thats ridic. i still dont know what im doing for NYE. at this point im thinking i'll end up at a shitty dive bar in philly with some friends. and honestly, thats okay with me.

[cornelius blaze]

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd65/Buzzetta_photos/Photo181.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd65/Buzzetta_photos/Photo187.jpg


Why are you wearing your baseball cap inside your apartment?

[Buzzetta]

I will be buried with that hat on. I have told my family that upon my death I will be buried in jeans black t shirt and a Yankees cap. Otherwise my friends will think they are at the wrong wake.

[cornelius blaze]

I will be buried with that hat on. I have told my family that upon my death I will be buried in jeans black t shirt and a Yankees cap. Otherwise my friends will think they are at the wrong wake.

Okay, you bloody nutter:p

[*EqualOpportunityHater*]

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05_01/horsemeatDM1805_468x496.jpg

[Buzzetta]

Keep in mind that I just got in at 5:30... simply took of my jacket and shoes and dug in.

[Amy]

Why are you wearing your baseball cap inside your apartment?

Because he's American, and they do weird things like that :p

[Buzzetta]

What does "cheeky" mean to you UK'rs? Cannot find that meaning on the internet.

[nugz]

What does "cheeky" mean to you UK'rs? Cannot find that meaning on the internet.

i think its basically means naughty. and YOU are very naughty! *spank spank* :p

[Buzzetta]

For the record these were not some of my better photos. However, I cannot wait for "blah blah blah jack***" to respond.

[Amy]

What does "cheeky" mean to you UK'rs? Cannot find that meaning on the internet.

Depends on the context really. I guess 'naughty' would fit but only if you were referring to a child (No spanking, Nugz! :p). It is more similar to 'flippant'. Eg, if a child backchats a teacher, is it being cheeky. Or if a child makes an insensitive comment, eg "you have a big arse, Miss" then it is being cheeky. The word isn't much used with adults.

[nugz]

Depends on the context really. I guess 'naughty' would fit but only if you were referring to a child (No spanking, Nugz! :p). It is more similar to 'flippant'. Eg, if a child backchats a teacher, is it being cheeky. Or if a child makes an insensitive comment, eg "you have a big arse, Miss" then it is being cheeky. The word isn't much used with adults.

oh dammit!!! Buzzetta you are off the hook from spanking.....THIS TIME! :p

[Buzzetta]

Depends on the context really. I guess 'naughty' would fit but only if you were referring to a child (No spanking, Nugz! :p). It is more similar to 'flippant'. Eg, if a child backchats a teacher, is it being cheeky. Or if a child makes an insensitive comment, eg "you have a big arse, Miss" then it is being cheeky. The word isn't much used with adults.

Ohhh.... I was just called cheeky in another thread and it went waaay over my head.

[vicarinatutugal]

What does "cheeky" mean to you UK'rs? Cannot find that meaning on the internet.

aww I confused you.. sorry. :D cheeky chops (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheeky)

[Amy]

aww I confused you.. sorry.cheeky chops (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheeky)

LOL, you called Buzzetta cheeky chops? :D :eek::p:o

[vicarinatutugal]

LOL, you called Buzzetta cheeky chops? :D :eek::p

I did, he is a little cheeky chops. :D

[vegan-soldier]

Well I would say Meat is murder. I just want to hear if all mozzers are vegetarians, if not why? And if you are, do you have anything smart I can say to people who eat meat. Cos I really tried to make them understand but they really love their steak. And I doubt most of them will ever understand.

I was a vegeterian before The Smiths came into my life. That just made it final with Meat is Murder.

You always get the arses who say..."You stepped on an ant, how dare you...Murderer! But you won't eat a piece of meat?"

These people have little of anything upstairs. I loved the comment about propaganda films. Showing what actually goes on in a factory farm is called a documentary I believe. Then when you also think of the type of people who could do that job and those people are the ones getting that decaying flesh all ready for the consumer. WOW. People who beat and abuse animals on a daily basis because they are so desensitized to it.

And I also find it amusing how people tend to say..."Oh, I don't think about what I'm eating" or "I don't like to think that this came from that cute little animal."

And to be a bigger arse, there are those who will go out of their way to post pictures of themselves eating some shite and actually think it's funny. I suppose, in some pathetic world it just might be funny. Glad I don't live in that strange place.

These threads about Morrissey's "Militancy" (OK)....always bring out the worst in folks.

I highly respect you for bringing the topic up. Very interesting to see what people think will make others angry. From a psychological point of view...these people are called A$$-Holes.

Sincerely,

[Not Right in the Head]

I was a vegeterian before The Smiths came into my life. That just made it final with Meat is Murder.

Posting in large-size Comic Sans is a worse crime than anything else that's been brought up in this thread.

[Amy]

Posting in large-size Comic Sans is a worse crime than anything else that's been brought up in this thread.

I think he's just trying to make sure his point is heard:p

[2-J]

You always get the arses who say..."You stepped on an ant, how dare you...Murderer! But you won't eat a piece of meat?"



Okay so what is the difference, enlighten us. Also, quit using the A$$-Holish font and text size, k?

[*EqualOpportunityHater*]

This Thread Is Getting Even Too Hateful For Me, I'm Outa Here :eek:

[Amatis]

The claws come out.. Well, we can't argue very much on this point as it comes down to a matter of opinion. That killing animals for food is morally wrong. I think this should be done in the quickest and least painful manner, I won't eat veal (except for the extremely rare scenario where someone else has already prepared it, like a social event.) and I think the animals should be allowed to graze and not have to be pumped up with antibiotics. This is ultimately an unbridgeable chasm, as i said it's a matter of opinion.

True, it is basically a matter of opinion. Arguing over the internet is such great fun though. :D You say that you think that animals should be killed in the quickest and least painful manner possible, yet every day you're financially supporting an industry that subjects them to what amounts to torture. By giving your money to these people you're accepting the methods they use, the vast majority of which are far from quick or painless. Animals aren't allowed to graze, they're kept in vast sheds in pens not much bigger than themselves, and they're pumped full of antibiotics and all other manners of shit. This is the norm. Whatever your feelings are towards the way they are treated, by continuing to buy animal products you're basically saying "I don't agree with the methods you use but I'm going to continue buying meat from you so, you know, just carry on doing what you're doing." These practices are going to continue until it becomes unprofitable for the industry, which is sure as hell not going to happen if people keep their objections to themselves and continue buying bacon double cheeseburgers or whatever.

I didn't mean to suggest they do, but I bet more than a few KILL them, and they DO feel pain.

Ah, I see your point now. Undoubtedly some vegetarians do kill rodents and insects but any hypocrisy on their part only serves to make them look a bit daft; it doesn't absolve anyone else.

I bet most are probably just very poor people, probably quite a few immigrants, and it's probably a very well-paying blue-collar job, that someone without a degree could get to support they're family. I'd be much more wary of postal workers, as they seem to be the most likely to snap.

True, a lot of people don't have a choice in the matter and have families to support and such. A far better example would be people who hunt or fish. Deriving pleasure from killing another animal seems morally questionable to say the least.

Well, the "no gods" part applies to all species as god is a mythological construct, in many ways not so different from robin hood or the cat in the hat, but the masters part, absolutely. Exactly.

Well I think appointing our species as rulers over all others doesn't exactly reflect anti-authoritarian values. It's not doing away with hierarchy, it's just putting us at the top of it. Anarchism promotes liberty and equality and I think supporting these ideas while perpetuating our unquestioned dominion over animals doesn't make sense, just as racist, homophobic or patriarchal anarchism doesn't. They're all based on differences between us, silly differences like what someone's got between their legs or where they grew up, which are exploited to turn situations into "us vs. them" and alienate us from each other. I'm not saying we should give animals nice big hugs and invite them round for tea, it'd just be better if we didn't pointlessly kill them I reckon.

Well, actually, the DICTIONARY defines murder as the killing of a human being, specifically. This is EXACTLY why the word is used. Even if said individuals aren't actually retarded enough to believe that they are the same, is deliberately invoking the word to draw comparison where there shouldn't be.

My dictionary (Chambers) also defines it as: "slaughter or death that is felt to be needless, brutal or blameworthy, as a result of recklessness, excessive or foolish behaviour, etc." Who gives a toss about semantics anyway? Perhaps we should come up with another slogan. It has to be alliterative though. Meat is Minging?

I would prefer that the animals suffer as little as possible, as stated, but I have no illusions, I used to work in a butchers' shop, and I still do occasionally. They don't get WHOLE cows there, but many large segments, and they look like what they are. I have no illusions that a steak simply materializes on a plate.

I realise you don't but I think a lot of people do, particularly children. Up until I was a certain age I don't think I actually realised I was eating an animal. I mean I knew it was a chicken or whatever, if you held up a picture of a live chicken and a dead one on a plate I knew they were the same thing but you just don't make the mental connection of how one became the other. Even after realising it had to be killed for us to eat it, I thought it grew up in a nice field like on the packet and it died of old age or summat. :D

It COMPLETELY changes the morality of killing them. Anyone who kills animals not for food, safety, or survival, is a sadist. This is the biggest precursor to serial murder. (The REAL kind.) regardless of the fact that a grown human being CAN survive without eating meat, it is not killed and eaten for the joy of taking it's life, it is done to aid in survival, even if it is not imperative. Now you're doing something equally rediculous to the aforementioned slogan by comparing penned animals to slaves. If I was black i'd probably find that a lot more offensive, but regardless it's a rediculous analogy. You're doing the same thing, comparing those who keep livestock to slave traders. Preposterous.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't think someone's background or past experiences makes torturing and killing them any less cruel or sadistic. It doesn't change the amount of pain they can feel. But is it really survival if it's not imperative? Killing an animal in the wild if you had no other possible food sources, that's survival. Nipping down to Tesco and picking between a hamburger or a veggie burger? It's not a question of survival if you have a choice.

Why is it a ridiculous analogy? Those who keep livestock and those who keep slaves are both confining a living creature against their will, inflicting pain and cruelty upon them for no reason other than the fact that it makes life more pleasant or convenient for them. Humans are animals. We are part of the animal kingdom. It's strange how some people find the mention of this offensive. True, we have evolved to the point of having intelligence and morality etc. but those things are completely irrelevant in relation to this issue. The fact that we can do calculus or create art has no bearing on the amount of pain we can suffer, it doesn't give us some sort of enhanced capacity for pain that makes it morally OK to kill other, 'lesser' animals.

Well, if you gorge yourself consistantly thats' probably true... However, a sensible diet that meets you're basic dietary needs is not necessarily harmful at all. Moreover, this generally only affects the obese, which i already discounted, and the middle aged, mostly men, as heart disease is rare in women. Also metabolism plays a huge part. My diet consists of pizza, whole milk, burgers, ribs, subs, etc, but i have a very fast metabolism and i eat sometimes four (or more) meals a day and retain a consistant weight, I'm even fairly thin, I didn't gain weight until I started drinking a lot of beer. How much vegetable matter would I have to consume to be equivalent?

True, but with 20% of the deaths in the United States caused by heart disease, it seems a fair number of people are gorging themselves nowadays. Metabolism does play a part, but so does the type of food you're eating. I went from being very overweight, perhaps verging on obese, to a healthy weight after doing nothing except cutting out animal products from my diet. I actually exercise less than I did when I was fat, yet I'm more toned and feel a lot more healthy overall. While I concede metabolism is a factor, I don't think it's any more so than diet. I'm not a nutritionist, I don't know your exact calorific requirements, and although I've never met a fat vegan I've never met an overly thin one either. All the things you mentioned can easily be made vegetarian or vegan, it's not as if you'd be counting on lettuce leaves and carrot sticks to fill you up.

[Amatis]

Is there anything printed by a PEDIATRICIAN that says that it is totally safe to raise a child vegan from birth? all I found was stuff written by vegans, not doctors, and even if a nutritionist says so, it's not the same.
I have to give you one thing, you're the smartest veggo I've ever argued with, however thats' not too much of a compliment.

A quick look on Google led me to an article by the American Dietetic Association which states that:

"Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer."

You asked about paediatricians specifically though, so here (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0820/is_n252/ai_21052106)'s an article about (get this) Dr. Benjamin Spock who advocates a completely vegan diet and here (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0820/is_n254/ai_21233274)'s one about Dr. Charles Attwood, who recommends a completely vegetarian diet for children, with a very limited amount of dairy. You might also want to check out 'Pregnancy, Children and the Vegan Diet' by Michael Klaper M.D.

Haha, er, thanks... I think.

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Posting in large-size Comic Sans is a worse crime than anything else that's been brought up in this thread.

Amen to that. Possibly the most vile font ever. You can't imagine the uproar when I had to convince my workplace that it was not an appropriate font for business letters. You'd have thought I killed someone's kitten for the outrage that was expressed.

[Walkers Crisp]

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8331/stuffingin7.jpg

:D:D

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

I'm not going to requote Amatis' long posts, but I agree with most of what's been said.

I was always uncomfortable with eating animals, but did it anyway because it was easier not to challenge the status quo. But a realistic look at the practicalities of eating animal flesh in our society makes the decision an easy one. Creatures are commodified, brutalized, reared in conditions that anyone with eyes cannot fail to agree are inhumane. Then they are slaughtered by the most financially expeditious means possible. The industrialization of the food industry has served to decrease the healthfulness of our food as it has lowered the costs. Food is being centrally prepared, then shipped long distances, necessitating increased use of preservatives, and increasing the risk of spoilage and contamination.

In American culture, portion sizes are ridiculously distorted. No one really has any idea how much they should be eating, when they are hungry, when they are full, or even what tastes good.

We are killing ourselves with convenience foods. Not eating animal flesh is just one step in the process of paying attention to what you eat and whether it is actually going to help you or harm you.

I'm not perfect, if I were doing everything I should, I would eat a completely vegan diet of locally-grown food. But I'm not, I do what I can and that's a start.

[Buzzetta]

.
Well I think appointing our species as rulers over all others doesn't exactly reflect anti-authoritarian values. It's not doing away with hierarchy, it's just putting us at the top of it. Anarchism promotes liberty and equality and I think supporting these ideas while perpetuating our unquestioned dominion over animals doesn't make sense, just as racist, homophobic or patriarchal anarchism doesn't. They're all based on differences between us, silly differences like what someone's got between their legs or where they grew up, which are exploited to turn situations into "us vs. them" and alienate us from each other. I'm not saying we should give animals nice big hugs and invite them round for tea, it'd just be better if we didn't pointlessly kill them I reckon.

This is all under the notion that animals enjoy the same rights as humans. I have stated this in another thread and am simply going to repeat myself here. Lets talk priorities. To the parents out there.... the house is burning. You have time to save one the family dog or your daughter. Anyone who even considered saving the dog over your child, please go get yourself sterilized. Who has priority family or strangers? Obviously family. See where I am going with this? Human nature is we protect our own. Humans are valued to humans over any other creatures. I would save or assist one human stranger (and I do) before I would consider donating one cent to any cause assisting anything to do with animals.

My dictionary (Chambers) also defines it as: "slaughter or death that is felt to be needless, brutal or blameworthy, as a result of recklessness, excessive or foolish behaviour, etc." Who gives a toss about semantics anyway? Perhaps we should come up with another slogan. It has to be alliterative though. Meat is Minging?
I guess you could try to slant that towards your ideas that consumption of animals is murder if you ever considered animals to be of the same rights as people. Which I do not nor do others.

Killing an animal in the wild if you had no other possible food sources, that's survival. Nipping down to Tesco and picking between a hamburger or a veggie burger? It's not a question of survival if you have a choice.
The animals that are used as a food source were created bred and slaughtered to their end of being a food source. These are not animals removed from the wild. These animals exist for the sole purpose of being on my plate.

Why is it a ridiculous analogy? Those who keep livestock and those who keep slaves are both confining a living creature against their will, inflicting pain and cruelty upon them for no reason other than the fact that it makes life more pleasant or convenient for them.
Try this again, by simply cut and pasting what I wrote in another thread. Slavery involved people. Slavery did not involve animals.
Tired of the slavery argument. Animals are not people.

You PETA terrorist supporting sheep need to stop equating the dutch introduced enslavement of africans to the americas, the spanish enslavement of native americans and the roman enslavement of the poor (among others) to a hamburger.

Animals are not people - as I have so clearly mentioned elsewhere, I would save one human life over 1000 animals any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[2-J]

There is a fundamental difference in the emotional / intellectual / rational capabilities of paradigmatic humans, and paradigmatic members of all other animal species.

This is provides a basis for their having fewer rights than human beings.

But I commend buzzetta for the post above: indeed, the arguments he is replying to do make, as a hidden assumption, the assumption that animals have the same rights as humans.

[Morrissey the 23rd]

There is a fundamental difference in the emotional / intellectual / rational capabilities of paradigmatic humans, and paradigmatic members of all other animal species.

This is provides a basis for their having fewer rights than human beings.

But I commend buzzetta for the post above: indeed, the arguments he is replying to do make, as a hidden assumption, the assumption that animals have the same rights as humans.

It it therefore fine to eat people with intellectual disabilities, or people who speak in a language you don't understand?

All beings are equal. Some are just more equal than others?

Why should justice only apply to the particular group of naked apes you wish it to and not to other animals?

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

To the parents out there.... the house is burning. You have time to save one the family dog or your daughter. Anyone who even considered saving the dog over your child, please go get yourself sterilized. Who has priority family or strangers? Obviously family. See where I am going with this? Human nature is we protect our own. Humans are valued to humans over any other creatures. I would save or assist one human stranger (and I do) before I would consider donating one cent to any cause assisting anything to do with animals.

I don't eat animals, as I've said. But I've had a child die, and I've had a pet die (several, as they do.) I would kill my dog with my bare hands to save my child's life. And when people talk about their "furbabies," or talk about how their pets are just as important to them as human children are to their parents, I just quietly roll my eyes. You have no idea the difference until you've had both, and I doubt any parent would disagree.

Still, I'm not eating animals. Animals have a right to live a natural life and not be exploited for human wants and desires. Their consciousness is not quite like ours- we are apples and oranges, but that doesn't give us the right to abuse them. Does that make any sense?

[Morrissey the 23rd]

Buzzetta, have you read Peter Singer's Animal Liberation? If so, what are your thoughts on singer's ideas of specism? If not, you might find it intersting. the ironic thing about singer is that he is often credited as starting the modern animal rights movement and he has claimed many times that he doesn't even like animals.

also, what are your thoughts on dog fighting, cock fighting and animals in circuses?

I've given links to him from sources such as the UN and New scientist, to then be told I'm providing biased links to suit my slanted, skewed way of thinking but good question.

I want to understand why Buzzetta sees no wrong in specism and I've already promised him that I will continue this debate when I'm home alone, with a little free time (You see, I'm often busy elsewhere while posting on this board.) His indifference and cynisism is wide-reaching. His ethics and morals model is all over the shot. I've found it hard to get him to expand on the reasoning behind his thoughts. It is just because it is :p.

[2-J]

It it therefore fine to eat people with intellectual disabilities, or people who speak in a language you don't understand?

All beings are equal. Some are just more equal than others?

Why should justice only apply to the particular group of naked apes you wish it to and not to other animals?

Note the word 'paradigmatic' in my argument.

The typical human (indeed, the vast majority of the human race) has capabilities - or the potential to develop capabailities - in the rational and emotional spheres, far greater than those of any other animal.

Regarding those with intellectual disabilities, it has to be said, even the vast majority of these display (and have) capabilities that far surpass those of other animals. Granted, there are some that don't. There's a decent argument that we should regard these people as having the same rights as any other human beings because you can never be quite sure of the mental life they have. There is always the possibility of misdiagnosis or medical breakthrough which might render a judgement based on their mental capabilities unsound. The same argument doesn't apply to non-human animals because there is no 'starting point' of high rationality and emotional capability that you find in human beings - no members of the species exhibit it. There is no *expectation* that they have the same capabilities. And nor should there be.

[2-J]

I think Singer somewhat understates the Animal Liberation movement's case... not that there is by any means a 'single view' that those who identify themslves with the movement have. But a great many wish to argue that animals have the 'same rights' or very nearly the same rights, as human beings.

In particular, most identifying with the movement (correct me if I'm wrong) would violently advocate that animals should not be killed for food, for example. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Singer's view allow killing of animals for food, as long as it was done with little pain and suffering?

[Flax]

also, what are your thoughts on dog fighting, cock fighting and animals in circuses?

I think that dog fighting, cock fighting and animals in circuses are fine because we are superior and they were grown for that purpose.

Humans are clearly superior, therefore we have the right to entertain ourselves with those inferior animals. Can you imagine how sad of a society we would be if we didn't have bears riding bicycles?

Jeane, I am gonna have to punish you by eating a 1000 burgers in your honor.

This is me, tonight:
http://nitespyder.com/FatBurger.jpg

[Morrissey the 23rd]

Note the word 'paradigmatic' in my argument.

The typical human (indeed, the vast majority of the human race) has capabilities - or the potential to develop capabailities - in the rational and emotional spheres, far greater than those of any other animal.

Regarding those with intellectual disabilities, it has to be said, even the vast majority of these display (and have) capabilities that far surpass those of other animals. Granted, there are some that don't. There's a decent argument that we should regard these people as having the same rights as any other human beings because you can never be quite sure of the mental life they have. There is always the possibility of misdiagnosis or medical breakthrough which might render a judgement based on their mental capabilities unsound. The same argument doesn't apply to non-human animals because there is no 'starting point' of high rationality and emotional capability that you find in human beings - no members of the species exhibit it. There is no *expectation* that they have the same capabilities. And nor should there be.


I did. That is why I replied to it.:confused:

Basically, it's ok to produce beings for the special beings to eat and no defense is required. We are that special. How can I debate that?

What we are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a15KgyXBX24

[2-J]

" As a matter of strict logic, perhaps, there is no contradiction in taking an interest in animals on both compassionate and gastronomic grounds. If a person is opposed to the infliction of suffering on animals, but not to the painless killing of animals, he could consistently eat animals that had lived free of all suffering and been instantly, painlessly slaughtered. Yet practically and psychologically it is impossible to be consistent in one's concern for nonhuman animals while continuing to dine on them. If we are prepared to take the life of another being merely in order to satisfy our taste for a particular type of food, then that being is no more than a means to our end. In time we will come to regard pigs, cattle, and chickens as things for us to use, no matter how strong our compassion may be; and when we find that to continue to obtain supplies of the bodies of these animals at a price we are able to pay it is necessary to change their living conditions a little, we will be unlikely to regard these changes too critically. The factory farm is nothing more than the application of technology to the idea that animals are means to our ends. Our eating habits are dear to us and not easily altered. We have a strong interest in convincing ourselves that our concern for other animals does not require us to stop eating them. No one in the habit of eating an animal can be completely without bias in judging whether the conditions in which that animal is reared caused suffering."

Thanks for quoting the material. Interesting (and quite correct) that Singer admits that, on his principles, strictly speaking there is no contradiction between eating meat and respecting animals' interests...

I would submit then that him saying that we 'inevitably' become more callous through eating animals (strictly speaking, as he says, permitted in his system) simply represents a lack of psychological fortitude on his part. I would say I take an interest in animal rights, donate to certain charities, support humane farming practices where possible, appreciate the beauty of animal life and my pets, as well as enjoying very much eating meat. It is possible to act that way. Singer admits that animals have no interest in whether they are killed or not, it's just a shame he in effect pussies out of the conclusion that this leads him to.