Yes?
http://renegadeevolution.blogspot.com/2007/06/slut.html

No?
http://www.mediawatch.com/wordpress/?p=28

Please get a hobby (better, an internet filter), chica. :rolleyes:

Porn in theory, porn in practice

I should be able to think about porn dispassionately, but it bothers me a lot!

By Cary Tennis
April 11, 2007

Dear Cary,

I like to consider myself a progressive thinker in general, and specifically when it comes to sex. I'm very interested in representations of sexuality in culture, am an attentive reader of gender theories, and have worked in both editorial and writerly capacities with sex as a theme.

I also consider myself open, curious and nonjudgmental in trying new things in practice. So what I'm wondering this morning is why, as a thoughtful and "progressive" person, did I so instinctively feel uncomfortable (and, I don't know, jealous?) when my boyfriend casually mentioned he'd been looking at porn yesterday? (Mentioned it casually, and then got defensive and dismissive when I told him of my discomfort.)

I know it's common to look at porn. And I like it, too (though I wouldn't say it's part of my regular routine). But for some reason, I have this primitive and unenlightened hope somewhere in my subconscious that my boyfriend is only turned on by me. Am I deceiving myself by considering myself open-minded? Am I really a Victorian?

Partially, I think, it could be leftover feelings from my last relationship, with a man who very much liked a specific type of porn (think Leg Show), and would use it to spite me when I was too tired (or angry, disheartened, etc.) to have sex. So maybe that's become embedded in my idea of porn. But this is a different relationship. I want to be OK with what this new boyfriend wants sexually. I want us to be able to discuss what we like, etc. But I also don't want to have the image of him fantasizing about other women.

Why do I separate porn in theory from porn in practice? How do I resolve this without making it a taboo topic in our relationship from here on out? Is a "don't ask, don't tell" policy healthy for a relationship?

Vicky Victorian

Dear Vicky Victorian,

I have gotten many, many letters from women over the last year or two with questions similar to yours, and I have been thinking about porn and looking at porn and observing my own reactions and have hesitated to talk about it because I felt that I had no ability to look at it dispassionately. But lately, I have made some progress in this regard, and am able to step back and look at it. And what I see is something that is enormously powerful but cloaked in taboo.

It is important to be specific and factual. Porn is not a drug -- it is not a substance. But it is a mind-altering phenomenon. It affects the nervous system quickly and powerfully.

It is sex crack. It is dangerous. While it is dangerous and many dangerous things are against the law, it is not a good idea to outlaw it. Giving the state more power over our lives is like giving the sex addict more porn. It makes the state sicker and sicker. But for those of us who can't handle it, we have to face what it is, why it is so powerful.

In the lizard mind where all things are writ backward on the mirror in God's pink lipstick, I am you and you are me. We become what we behold, as Blake said. What we see is what we are. If you are naked I am naked. We are porous in the sensorium of sex. We are not impervious; we cannot look at it without tingling. It hijacks our sex. So if we do not like porn it may be because porn is too powerful. We don't care to lose our freedom to this thing, to have our sex run off one way while we who were children once gape in astonishment and wonder and frightful surprise at the size, the perfection, the wetness, the hairlessness, the lips, the machines.

It reaches right into your pants is what it does. That's kind of weird, isn't it, to have something come out of the computer and reach into your pants? Maybe you want it reaching into your pants and you're fine with that, you asked it to reach in your pants. But maybe it's just entering your eyeballs and then reaching into your pants and then it feels good but not entirely because something about it isn't right, because it's a little like being molested, isn't it? You're not quite sure being aroused is the right thing, because it's not in a relationship, you're not with a person, you're not expressing yourself, you're just having your sex made to tingle by an unseen hand -- you see the bodies represented, but you don't see the hand, any more than you see how the drug works. It's a song in your brain, it's a hand in your pants. Nobody is touching you. Nobody is forcing you to watch it. But it's an uninvited seduction; it's an unwanted fall; it's your body betraying you.

So your body betrays you. If your body betrays you with a man it takes some time and there's some negotiation.

With porn you don't negotiate. It goes right into the pants.

Let's try to think of it in a novel way. We are accustomed to thinking of the problem with porn being that women are objectified. That is the theory. That is why your theory and your practice differ. Taking into account the logic of equivalence and reversal that makes the unconscious such a baffling domain, consider that the operational problem is really, however counterintuitive and stupid this sounds, that it is the man who is being objectified. It's true that women are being represented, that their bodies are hacked up and freebased into a collage of primary sex characteristics swollen impossibly by science. But consider the idea that by going straight into his brain those images, distilled like moonshine, clarified and made impossibly strong, take him, as it were, against his will. He is not the actor. He is the one being worked on. He is passive, powerless before the images.

It's not so much that he is cheating on you with these images. It's more that the images are cheating him of who he is. He is being robbed. He's being molested by porn.

So perhaps you should feel sorry for him in a way. But then, he won't admit he's being molested, will he? People don't admit it when they're being molested. They're too ashamed. They like it a little also, and it's confusing: They want it to go away but they want it to stay too. They're in the contradiction zone. They're in the flip-flop mirror world: Pleasure equals pain, seduction equals betrayal, sex equals death.

And sex does equal death in a way. Sex is about death. Sex is about death because sex is about life and life is about death. Sex is also about infancy not only because it is about bodily urges -- and having no control, naked as babies, dependent, needy, vulnerable to attack, being done to, being done, being taken in hand, being entered -- but because it leads finally to a kind of infantile sleep -- and infants!

And naturally whether you approve of porn in theory or not, its effect will be to displace you. Like crack, it tends to take over, to push out other hungers that tend to nurture the human community by making us dependent on one another. Since we are dependent on each other we must be civil and loving. If we are not dependent on each other then we needn't be civil and loving. We needn't have community and family. That is the way in which any drug breaks down family and community by isolating its user. Porn isolates its users also, meeting their needs outside the social compact. The social compact becomes a commercial compact between anonymous people, while those in the actual human community are relegated to bystander status. It introduces a third party into the erotic economy of a relationship.

Some of course will say this is crazy and nonsensical and that is fine. I am just proposing a way of thinking about it, because the ways that we currently think about it do not seem to be very useful. We think of it in the old ways and we remain as baffled as we were before.

And for those of us who have some intuitive feeling for the problem of childhood sexual abuse and how it lives with us later, how it crouches in the corner coaxing us toward madness, this may be no stretch of the imagination at all.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/col/tenn/2007/04/11/porn/index_np.html

* * *

Pornography and the Attack on the Living Temple of God (http://www.arlingtondiocese.org/offices/communications/boughtprice.html)
A Pastoral Letter by Bishop Paul S. Loverde

First of all, I'm glad Chica's back. We missed you here.

I have posted a lot of weird pseudointrospective rubbish lately, so I will keep this short. My answer is entirely subjective. I have to wonder whether there's an American Apparel of porn, that is union made ethically sourced pornography for people with really guilty consciences, or those who also buy "ethically killed" animals so they can assuage their consciences by paying more for something that makes them feel guilty in the first place, kinda like free range hookers or organic heroin.

I don't and never have understood porn, so I'm probably not equipped to answer this. It doesn't appeal to me on any level, and panting over it just seems sort of weird and kind of sad. Maybe I spent too much time around the barnyard, because watching other people do it interests me just about as much as watching animals procreate, that is to say, not at all. Without love, it's all just biology and there's nothing really compelling about it to me. Perhaps I am frigid. I do know plenty of people do it and their experiences are different from mine, so I can't judge. I agree with the article above, it does operate like a drug. I think some people turn to it when they're lonely, and other people do it because they're curious. Lots of people seem to become obsessed. I've worked in places where such dreams were sold, and some poor folks came back every single day for more. They seemed like nice people, and you sort of had to wonder what they were avoiding.

Sorry for my waffle. I'd be interested in knowing your thinking on this matter?

hmmmmmmmmmm, I don't know. i've never really thought about it before, to be honest. i mean, I've had boyfriends before who have copies of Playboy and stuff, and not been offended. I've never understood it, it certainly doesn't appeal to me, but I know some men who really like it. The side of being pimped or forced, I'd not really considered it before. Some sorts of 'porn' like the Fantasy Channel over here, well, they feature washed up celebs with boob jobs who actually want to do it. I'll have to consider it some more, I guess.

For one Jenna jameson, there thousands of deceived women from all over the world who are working in the industry because of their past sexual abuse, financial and drug problems. Being told they will be a big star and how beautiful they are, until they are tossed aside, for the next one to be filmed.

It never be 'ethical', you will always have some extreme tastes where the person isn't in control of what they have to perform, because of the film makers and their managers. I have seen documentaries on these people. It would seem, from what i've seen. These people need counseling and help, to get out of this 'industry'.

For one Jenna jameson, there thousands of deceived women from all over the world

I'm not arguing ethics, but I think this part is also true for rock stars, professional football players, movie stars. I mean not the sexual abuse or other problems you mention, but the fact that the reason some people are paid so well, part of it is because they need to ensure that there are new people waiting to do as they are told to make it. Look at all the kids that want to be the next Michael Jordan or Lebron James and how few are actually going to make it. Look at all the kids that want to be rap stars. What are they going to do?

Oh well, I read somewhere that rap is on the way out. :p

Well its not going to go away any time soon as its a multi billion pound industry so the ethics of it are rather hyperthetical. However individuals who are obsessed with it should get help.Sex is such a small part of the whole experience of life.Most people seem to be occupied with nothing else.Its the bottom of my list thankfully.And I say that as someone who`s pretty much been there and done it all.A good book,a good film,a three hour hike,a vodka tonic and Morrissey to listen to beats watching a porn movie any day.I think like with anything you can only take it so far.when you`ve pretty much seen in films all there is to see,the shock value and the enjoyment value is reduced.most porn I`ve ever seen is pretty tasteless anyway.

Well, needless to say, I have been approached in the past to do porn, hot blonde babes like me are in high demand all the time, appearently..... Of course, I tuned it down because I am not going to ruin my life for a few thousand dollars. Plus I have dignity. :cool:

Anyway, I don't consume porn at all. Porn is mostly for boys who "have their needs" and for fat losers (both male and female) who make it a lifestyle, going to converntions and collecting all that nasty stuff....yuk!

People who use porn are ok, as long as they don't abuse it.

I'm not arguing ethics, but I think this part is also true for rock stars, professional football players, movie stars. I mean not the sexual abuse or other problems you mention, but the fact that the reason some people are paid so well, part of it is because they need to ensure that there are new people waiting to do as they are told to make it. Look at all the kids that want to be the next Michael Jordan or Lebron James and how few are actually going to make it. Look at all the kids that want to be rap stars. What are they going to do?

Oh well, I read somewhere that rap is on the way out. :p

but the avenues of getting rich from being a rock/sports star, and 'failing" would only leave you somewhat bitter and not emotional scared.

but the avenues of getting rich from being a rock/sports star, and 'failing" would only leave you somewhat bitter and not emotional scared.

I understand it's a totally different thing. I'm not sure why I was inspired to post that. I should be in bed sleeping.

I understand it's a totally different thing. I'm not sure why I was inspired to post that. I should be in bed sleeping.

No, i understand what you are saying, it is just another way that people have been shown how to gain wealth and a celebrity status. But it's like winning the lottery, it doesn't happen for everyone.

You know, I've thought about it many times and I don't know. Not because of the risk of coersion (sp?), I imagine you can stick to the major companies which are supervised. But becuase, as has been mentioned, it does tend to attract abuse victims etc., which means they're probably being manipulated some way, I don't know. At least it's better that prostitution, because both parties get paid to do it (but then there's the viewer...)
This is giving me a headache, thanks chica! :p

What is the definition of porn?

What is the definition of porn?

i do believe Chica means the "hardcore" stuff.

People who use porn are ok, as long as they don't abuse it.

I don't abuse it but there is slight bruising.

http://binthebunny.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/playboy-quiz-l.jpg

http://binthebunny.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/playboy-quiz-l.jpg

hullo chica. how've you been?

What is the definition of porn?

For me,it purely means the graphic depiction of sex and certainly nothing at all to with morals or ethics

Pornography means the graphic depiction of sex so how could viewing this be unethical?

"consuming" is a loaded word in this context,i think.

i do believe Chica means the "hardcore" stuff.

Hardcore/Softcore ,really,who cares ? !
It's just sex

Pornography means the graphic depiction of sex so how could viewing this be unethical?

"consuming" is a loaded word in this context,i think.

Here here. I was waiting for someone to say something along those lines. I see so many women that get offended by porn or look down upon it. That only makes those of us who have no problem with it look more like whores. haha. Personally I see no problem what so ever.

Here here. I was waiting for someone to say something along those lines. I see so many women that get offended by porn or look down upon it. That only makes those of us who have no problem with it look more like whores. haha. Personally I see no problem what so ever.

Looking at depictions of the sex act in all its different wonderful ways is not wrong obviously.

Beware the new puritans and the rubbish they spout!

Looking at depictions of the sex act in all its different wonderful ways is not wrong obviously.

Beware the new puritans and the rubbish they spout!

Indeed. I'm not scared. Plus it can be really funny too. It's not always something that people obsess over and constantly watch etc. There are many cases when porn is hilarious in which case how unethical can it be if its just for a laugh?

Porn is such a touchy issue. I'll never understand anyone who completely defends porn, and I will never listen to anyone who completely hates it. Trust me, I've done some recreational usage in my lifetime, but I've never purchased real pornography, just knicked it here and there from different resources. And I'm kinda against purchasing pornography, because I'd rather buy something more useful. There is nothing wrong with most people who watch pornography. As I say often: all things in moderation, including porn and masturbation. Actually, masturbation does not need to be moderated, as it is quite healthy in all aspects, but I think the phrase is catchier if its attached at the end.

Anyways! Enough dillydallying. Porn is okay and not okay at the same time. Some people get abused while doing it, but how often do you think the average porn user likes the idea of that? Porn is just a device to be used. No thought goes into it other than "oh, that arouses me immensely" not "I hope he/she isn't doing this because they feel inadequate". The general user Gay/straight, male/female is usually innocent. And usually the porn people view isn't disturbing or sickening, just (very very fake) sex, sometimes more aggressive, sometimes more nice, and usually completely devoid of emotion.

And that is where I get to the negative side: some porn is just so obviously miserable for its stars that it is disturbing to think about what is going through their minds. Their sex is so fake and unreal, yet it can mislead people into believing their sex lives should be the same, even though many porn actors don't enjoy sex at all. This holds true especially for early teenagers, who's parents often don't teach them about sex whatsoever and might not have anything to base their understand of sex on other than their friend's titty magazines. This is absolutely horrible for their development. Nothing could be worse than to compare some fake-breasted, bleach blonde, face-lifted girl to a real woman. End of story.

In conclusion, I suggest that people who really don't need porn but use it anyways stop using it. You might be the kinda person who is thinking right now "my companion uses porn and this is an argument to make them stop". NO IT ISN'T!!!! If your companion uses porn once and a while, you shouldn't care unless it is affecting your sex life or if hes openly berating you about how you don't look as chiseled as the guy he just saw in Backdoor Pirates vol. 9. Porn is just a device after all, and even when people are in a relationship, one of the two people might be hornier than the other. So I'd consider it a blessing that porn exists.

Porn is such a touchy issue.

Sure is, i can't help but touch myself while watching it.

Sure is, i can't help but touch myself while watching it.

Can any of us, really? :p

Sure is, i can't help but touch myself while watching it.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

I have absolutely no problem with porn as long as its legal stuff.

However what i do have a problem with and it makes me seethe until I`m almost sick is taking my little boys to the local garage Spar only to have them gawping at such publications as...."Grannies gagging for it" and "mucky Mingers do girl on girl" etc etc. They do have necks that can crane to the top shelf and frankly I`d prefer it if they sold them away from the sweets and comics.:mad:

gawping at such publications as...."Grannies gagging for it"

I'll have to look out for that the next time i am in my local spar:p

hullo chica. how've you been?

Hello Mr HIM, Sir, I'm very well, how are you? Don't you have an opinion on the subject? :D

Hello Mr HIM, Sir, I'm very well, how are you? Don't you have an opinion on the subject? :D

i'm alright, thank you. glad to hear you're good.

on the subject of this thread, i don't like my morals to get in the way of a good wank. i can't really say any more than that.

Honesty is great ;)

I don't like my morals to get in the way of a good wank. i can't really say any more than that.

I wrote a four-fucking-paragraph essay when I could have just said that. :(

i'm alright, thank you. glad to hear you're good.

on the subject of this thread, i don't like my morals to get in the way of a good wank. i can't really say any more than that.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/ddball1/LOL-Monty_Python_Applause.gif

your filthy, but we love you!

Porn's hot, just make sure you have on really cute underwear and that your wax job isn't too new or too old. And get a manicure and pedicure. And practice your "O" face in the mirror beforehand. If anybody has any other questions I will do my best to answer them!

Porn's hot, just make sure you have on really cute underwear and that your wax job isn't too new or too old. And get a manicure and pedicure. And practice your "O" face in the mirror beforehand. If anybody has any other questions I will do my best to answer them!

I believe you had a shave in yours, Ms. Hilton.

I believe you had a shave in yours, Ms. Hilton.

Did you like it? You're nice. Are you the little dark haired girl who used to have an infection? It's really brave of you to talk about that stuff in front of people.

Do any of the girls here douche? It's like, really super bad for you.

Or maybe...

Is Ethical Porn Consuming?

Did you like it? You're nice. Are you the little dark haired girl who used to have an infection? It's really brave of you to talk about that stuff in front of people.


Well, thank you, Ms. Hilton. I try to model my life after yours.

Well, thank you, Ms. Hilton. I try to model my life after yours.

You're already tons cooler and prettier and funnier than I will ever be. I'm sorry if anything I said made you feel weird. Good luck and stuff, to everybody here.

im too lazy to read everyones posts, so i dont know if im repeating anything. but in my experiences, porn is okay. when i was in a relationship, sometimes me and my ex would get a video and watch it together. i only really enjoyed it if i was drunk though. the only time it bothered me, was sometimes id wake up and my ex would fucking have it on, doing his thing to it. like, he couldnt wake me up? he had to put a fucking porn on? i mean, if i wasnt around, thats one thing. but im laying right there??? im sorry, im drunk and im rambling, but thats the only thing about porn that bothers me. if im with someone and im fucking laying next to them, i feel like im better than a fucking porn vid. seriously. ummm, TMI, i think. :o

Nothing wrong with it at all. It's a business, with paid professionals who (under legal contract, through their managers) perform a legal service with another consenting professional. I see nothing wrong with that. Nothing whatsoever.

he had to put a fucking porn on? i mean, if i wasnt around, thats one thing. but im laying right there??? thats the only thing about porn that bothers me. if im with someone and im fucking laying next to them, i feel like im better than a fucking porn vid.
. :o

I wouldn't get too concerned by that,Nugz: watching porn and actually having sex are two completely separate things.
It's not a competition.

if im with someone and im fucking laying next to them, i feel like im better than a fucking porn vid. seriously. ummm, TMI, i think. :o

I'm glad he is now called an 'Ex'. Yes you are, if he has to watch a "video" when he is the sack with a lady, then in my professional opinion, he has something wrong down in the trouser department.

. the only time it bothered me, was sometimes id wake up and my ex would fucking have it on, doing his thing to it. like, he couldnt wake me up?

So he was a true romantic!

No?
http://www.mediawatch.com/wordpress/?p=28

That is one of the most one sided,blinkered view of pornography I've ever read.
"the popular video series entitled “Cherry Poppers” is essentially a rape manual" No,it's not

"Pornography consumers need increasingly degrading and violent images as they become more and more desensitized"
Really? I mean,really?

"What of the young woman whose boyfriend insists on covering her face with his favorite pornographic image when they have sex?"

Well,that isn't too good unless the girl is in to it too?But we don't know that,do we?But,how common place is this?The exception that proves the rule.

"Eighty-seven percent of molesters of girls, and 77% of molesters of boys admit to regular use of hard-core pornography"

And your point is?

"Pornography is used for sexual arousal by criminals before they commit their crimes."

Oh dear,it's the porn that makes them do it

And your point is?

Are you talkin to me? :p

Are you talkin to me? :p

good morning, chica

Are you talkin to me? :p

No,i was referring to the Media Watch nonsense

Sure is, i can't help but touch myself while watching it.

Neither do I.

Nothing wrong with porn. I like watching it late in the evening, before going to sleep.

Good morning indeed! A bit chilly, though.

Good morning indeed! A bit chilly, though.

yeah, that's true. i'm going to the shops soon, on my bike, though. you?

Good morning indeed! A bit chilly, though.

Yes,it is a bit.I've had to put the central heating on:goodbye summer(oh,hold on,we didn't have one here)

Chica,you posted the original question,have you come to a conclusion?
I AM talking to you this time

Are you from Belgrade?looks a great city

Maybe I'll go for a walk. I want to spend the day doing nothing!

Maybe I'll go for a walk. I want to spend the day doing nothing!

You could always try consuming some porn

Here is not cold, nor hot.

Maybe I'll go for a walk. I want to spend the day doing nothing!

me too! yeah, it looks like a nice day for a walk. wrap up warm, though.

Here is not cold, nor hot.

it sounds like it's mild, there.

Here is not cold, nor hot.

Just right then

Yes,it is a bit.I've had to put the central heating on:goodbye summer(oh,hold on,we didn't have one here)

Chica,you posted the original question,have you come to a conclusion?
I AM talking to you this time

Are you from Belgrade?looks a great city

Lucky you, I have to wait till mid October until central heating is on! Yes, I'm from Belgrade, it's not a bad place but the climate is terrible.

I can't make up my mind on professional porn. Amateur porn is great, I don't have a problem with that. But the problem with sex industry is that it recruits so many sexually or otherwise abused people, or generally people who haven't had many choices in life, so you have to wonder how free is their free choice. Of course, there are shining examples of people who do what they love and get paid for it, which is great too. So it's hard to decide.

What time is it in Belgrade? Because I just woke up and my head is pounding. I wish some one would reply to my short essay so I could argue with them.

It's 1 pm, I'll reply to your essay in a minute :p

Lucky you, I have to wait till mid October until central heating is on! Yes, I'm from Belgrade, it's not a bad place but the climate is terrible.

.

I take it you like the winter better?All cosy inside.

What's wrong with climate there?

Watched an interesting documentary last week on the BBC that featured Belgrade.Really made me want to go and explore the rest of "old Yugoslavia"
What did you think of Milosoveic? Most people on the documentary didn't really want to talk much about him.

I think your views are pretty well balanced on pornography unlike that lovely Andrea Dworkin(has she died yet?)

What time is it in Belgrade? Because I just woke up and my head is pounding. I wish some one would reply to my short essay so I could argue with them.

hallo, sir alec. i liked what you had to say.

. I wish some one would reply to my short essay so I could argue with them.

Sorry,can't help you out there as your "essay"is well balanced and rather quite sensible so nothing to argue about there.
:(

It's 1 pm, I'll reply to your essay in a minute :p

hallo, sir alec. i liked what you had to say.

You guys are making me tear up. I've never felt this loved.

You guys are making me tear up. I've never felt this loved.

See,porn can help us all spread the love

See,porn can help us all spread the love

...and other things as well.

...and other things as well.

Indeed,SO many things can be spread

Yeah, sorry Sir Alec, I couldn't find anything to attack in your essay :(

Nobody likes Andrea Dworkin, poor woman :p I haven't read much of her work. But I find that pro-sex Vs anti-sex division totally scary.

I hate continental climate, I want to live somewhere where temperature won't be +45 in summer and -25 in winter :rolleyes: Winter is okay, but not in the city. The same goes for summer.

Milosevic destroyed the country, I can imagine why nobody likes to talk about him. The first presidents of all ex-Yugoslav countries learnt about politics in an authoritarian political system, and they were totally unable to resolve conflicts in a civilized democratic manner. And Milosevic was a horrible diplomat, in addition to that. So we had to have a war because of those fuckwits :rolleyes:

I think I'll save the essay for future reference, because it might be the first that nobody has disputed. Who would have guessed that I would be such a porn expert?

Also, Chica ought to make a thread completely devoted to Balkans politics.

Who would have guessed that I would be such a porn expert?
Indeed. :p

Porn is such a touchy issue. I'll never understand anyone who completely defends porn, and I will never listen to anyone who completely hates it. Trust me, I've done some recreational usage in my lifetime, but I've never purchased real pornography, just knicked it here and there from different resources. And I'm kinda against purchasing pornography, because I'd rather buy something more useful. There is nothing wrong with most people who watch pornography. As I say often: all things in moderation, including porn and masturbation. Actually, masturbation does not need to be moderated, as it is quite healthy in all aspects, but I think the phrase is catchier if its attached at the end.

Anyways! Enough dillydallying. Porn is okay and not okay at the same time. Some people get abused while doing it, but how often do you think the average porn user likes the idea of that? Porn is just a device to be used. No thought goes into it other than "oh, that arouses me immensely" not "I hope he/she isn't doing this because they feel inadequate". The general user Gay/straight, male/female is usually innocent. And usually the porn people view isn't disturbing or sickening, just (very very fake) sex, sometimes more aggressive, sometimes more nice, and usually completely devoid of emotion.

And that is where I get to the negative side: some porn is just so obviously miserable for its stars that it is disturbing to think about what is going through their minds. Their sex is so fake and unreal, yet it can mislead people into believing their sex lives should be the same, even though many porn actors don't enjoy sex at all. This holds true especially for early teenagers, who's parents often don't teach them about sex whatsoever and might not have anything to base their understand of sex on other than their friend's titty magazines. This is absolutely horrible for their development. Nothing could be worse than to compare some fake-breasted, bleach blonde, face-lifted girl to a real woman. End of story.

In conclusion, I suggest that people who really don't need porn but use it anyways stop using it. You might be the kinda person who is thinking right now "my companion uses porn and this is an argument to make them stop". NO IT ISN'T!!!! If your companion uses porn once and a while, you shouldn't care unless it is affecting your sex life or if hes openly berating you about how you don't look as chiseled as the guy he just saw in Backdoor Pirates vol. 9. Porn is just a device after all, and even when people are in a relationship, one of the two people might be hornier than the other. So I'd consider it a blessing that porn exists.

. I wish some one would reply to my short essay so I could argue with them.

What a load of crap:p

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z239/jncfaa05/wannafight.jpg

Bitch, I'll kill you!!!

EDIT: Too Much?

Milosevic destroyed the country, I can imagine why nobody likes to talk about him. The first presidents of all ex-Yugoslav countries learnt about politics in an authoritarian political system, and they were totally unable to resolve conflicts in a civilized democratic manner. And Milosevic was a horrible diplomat, in addition to that. So we had to have a war because of those fuckwits :rolleyes:

Glad you think so. :)
I thought Croatian and Serbian people hated each other, for the war etc, but all the Serbian people I met are nice, and I'm for leaving the past
behind and building a better future, where the two nations are friends.
love peace and harmony

Porn's okay, as long as all the parties involved are willing participants, including the people viewing the film.

I myself don't enjoy watching it, I'd rather read it.

P.S.: Nice essay, Sir Alec.

^ That's a good life motto, judge!

Now, back on topic: AlterNet seems to be publishing articles based on the discussions we have here on Solo :confused:

Pornography and the End of Masculinity (http://www.alternet.org/sex/62833/)

Now, back on topic: AlterNet seems to be publishing articles based on the discussions we have here on Solo :confused:

Pornography and the End of Masculinity (http://www.alternet.org/sex/62833/)

I liked the anti-slut article a lot more than that load of one-sided garbage.

You slut! :confused:

You slut! :confused:

I can't help but be who I am :(

Sorry, I overreacted, it's just that I have a soft spot for Robert Jensen, he's so sweet! :o

Bitch, I'll kill you!!!

EDIT: Too Much?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a384/themarbleintheoatmeal/smilies/fighting0054.gif

you couldn't fight your way out of a paper bag!


I myself don't enjoy watching it, I'd rather read it.
.

So do porno films (on dvd) have subtitles option now, wow i never knew that:)

So do porno films (on dvd) have subtitles option now, wow i never knew that:)

Silly, I meant erotica. ;)

Silly, I meant erotica. ;)

Oh bugger, i've ordered some foreign DVDs on the internet, because i thought it have subtitles to explain what they are 'moaning' and
'gasping'' about. When i've seen these films, i don't understand the narratives or what is going on in the plot, i hoping the subtitles would help me. Also i really like watching some films with the directors commentary.

Sorry, I overreacted, it's just that I have a soft spot for Robert Jensen, he's so sweet! :o

How is he sweet? Hes a radical feminist who thinks that if he says everything insecure women want to hear, he will sell books. And the worst part is: hes a freakin guy!

Well, first of all, he's kind of cute :p
http://www.utexas.edu/opa/experts/graphics/hi-res/jensen.jpg

And then, I read something he wrote about the time when he did his research for the book, he watched so much porn it made him cry :eek: I find it sweet when porn makes men cry :rolleyes:

Well, first of all, he's kind of cute :p
http://www.utexas.edu/opa/experts/graphics/hi-res/jensen.jpg

And then, I read something he wrote about the time when he did his research for the book, he watched so much porn it made him cry :eek: I find it sweet when porn makes men cry :rolleyes:

:confused: I'm sure theres a porn niche for that

Thanks :p
So far, I'm finding this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7820096739365449276) satisfying enough :eek:

Thanks :p
So far, I'm finding this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7820096739365449276) satisfying enough :eek:

So you're using an anti-pornography speech to get yourself off?!???!

Who are you and what have you done with Chica?

So you're using an anti-pornography speech to get yourself off?!???!

Wow, I give a whole new meaning to the word 'pervert' :confused:

Wow, I give a whole new meaning to the word 'pervert' :confused:

*pats Chica on the back* Its okay my dear. There is nothing wrong with you. Don't let some anti-anti-pornography-writer-porn-writer tell you that. Keep on pleasing yourself to anti-pornography-writers, and do it proudly!

Thanks :p
And I'm not seeing him as an object, honest :rolleyes:

Shouldn't we have discussed Kant on this thread? What kind of a thread about ethics is it if you don't discuss Kant? :confused: Do theories about ethical consumption rely on his categorical imperative? Discuss! Or let's all just watch that video :p

Thanks :p
And I'm not seeing him as an object, honest :rolleyes:

Shouldn't we have discussed Kant on this thread? What kind of a thread about ethics is it if you don't discuss Kant? :confused: Do theories about ethical consumption rely on his categorical imperative? Discuss! Or let's all just watch that video :p

No, you can objectify things, just as long as you separate those thoughts with reality. Everyone objectifies things, including ultra-feminists. Wait, why am I trying to teach you something you already know?

Anyways, who wants to get drunk and watch some hard-core Russian gay porn?!

And then, I read something he wrote about the time when he did his research for the book, he watched so much porn it made him cry :eek: I find it sweet when porn makes men cry :rolleyes:

that's what the tissues were for!

Shouldn't we have discussed Kant on this thread?

topic title: Is consuming porn ethical? and you want to discuss some ones "kant";)

*pats Chica on the back* Its okay my dear. There is nothing wrong with you. Don't let some anti-anti-pornography-writer-porn-writer tell you that. Keep on pleasing yourself to anti-pornography-writers, and do it proudly!

what happen to the arguing?

Russian? What happened with consuming things produced locally? :p

Russian? What happened with consuming things produced locally? :p

I get sick of seeing thin college students, I want hairy muscley uni-browed Rusky.

All right I gotta go to a photo shoot.

chica, I like how all four of your answers presuppose that the only objection anyone would have with porn is some libertarian concern over possible coercion. :rolleyes:

If you're painting with such a limited ethical palette it's no wonder that you have such problems resolving this issue.

ethical is just what many people(and many is millions and millions in a recurring long time) think it's correct...ethical is not positivly forever right or wrong(fuck too many postmodern reading, and fuck being too atheist)

so it may or not be

I think it's alright as long it's not paedophilic, zoophilic, necro... but it's just me opinion...

anyway Jenna J. Live Forever

Thanks :p
So far, I'm finding this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7820096739365449276) satisfying enough :eek:

I love how he gets so much girly giggling from the audience of feminists.
Lots of pent up frustration in THAT room,methinks.
Now,if only he'd just got his cock out the women would have rushed the stage

Thanks :p
So far, I'm finding this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7820096739365449276) satisfying enough :eek:

Oohhh "Andrea,Andrea,Andrea" reminds me of the younger sister in The Brady Bunch "Marcia,Marcia,Marcia"

Interesting how Jensen and a lot of the rest of the anti porn brigade concentrate on hetero porn and the "abuse/degradation" of women but no mention of male gay porn which often includes the same type of scenes.

chica, I like how all four of your answers presuppose that the only objection anyone would have with porn is some libertarian concern over possible coercion. :rolleyes:

If you're painting with such a limited ethical palette it's no wonder that you have such problems resolving this issue.

I've been called libertarian before, I can take it :D

and fuck being too atheist

Who are you and what have you done with Pervo???

I love how he gets so much girly giggling from the audience of feminists.
Lots of pent up frustration in THAT room,methinks.
Now,if only he'd just got his cock out the women would have rushed the stage

Of course, he's cute, what did you expect! :eek:

Interesting how Jensen and a lot of the rest of the anti porn brigade concentrate on hetero porn and the "abuse/degradation" of women but no mention of male gay porn which often includes the same type of scenes.

I think that's because they don't consider it 'mainstream porn'. The research presented on that conference was based on 25 most popular films, i.e. those rented most frequently. Some of it must have been gay porn. 75% of perpetrators of violence in those 25 films were men, and 90% of sufferers of violence were women.

It's also curious that only 10% of scenes didn't contain any violence.

I think that's because they don't consider it 'mainstream porn'. The research presented on that conference was based on 25 most popular films, i.e. those rented most frequently. Some of it must have been gay porn. 75% of perpetrators of violence in those 25 films were men, and 90% of sufferers of violence were women.

It's also curious that only 10% of scenes didn't contain any violence.

Chica,have you a link for this research? I'd be interested to see which films they selected and how they defined violence in them.

Also,seems strange that they don't consider gay porn mainstream.

Chica,have you a link for this research? I'd be interested to see which films they selected and how they defined violence in them.

Also,seems strange that they don't consider gay porn mainstream.

Well, girl on girl action is mainstream I think. Not a big surprise.

I didn't remember the right numbers, so I suggest you see the video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4489853897776743667) yourself. It was recorded in March, and they said the study hadn't been published yet, so I don't know if it can be found somewhere now. You'll hear about the methods they used, and what exactly they were looking for.

http://www.nopornnorthampton.org/2007/05/13/presentation-content-analysis-bestselling-porn-films.aspx

Well, girl on girl action is mainstream I think. Not a big surprise.

I didn't remember the right numbers, so I suggest you see the video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4489853897776743667) yourself. It was recorded in March, and they said the study hadn't been published yet, so I don't know if it can be found somewhere now. You'll hear about the methods they used, and what exactly they were looking for.

http://www.nopornnorthampton.org/2007/05/13/presentation-content-analysis-bestselling-porn-films.aspx

I meant male gay porn.
Oh,god do i have to sit through that whole godawful presentation?Well,i know i don't HAVE to but will give it a shot.

I'd also like to hear more from those who answered no to the original question and their reasons behind their answer.

Oh,god do i have to sit through that whole godawful presentation?

I know, that's why I posted the other link, you can just read the highlights :p

I know, that's why I posted the other link, you can just read the highlights :p

That other link doesn't seem to be working,Chica.

SO,now i'm sitting through the other link..and rapidly losing the will to live!

oops... here it is

Video Presentation: A Content Analysis of 50 of Today's Top Selling Porn Films (explicit language)

A number of porn defenders claim that anti-porn activists harp on unusual, violent, women-hating examples of porn, and unfairly downplay the existence of 'artistic' porn on sites like Suicide Girls. anthonyjk_6319 believes that porn sites like "Gag on My Cock" and "Anal Suffering" are the "exception", and that the "overwhelming majority of porn (something like 99.8%) deals only in consenting nonviolent sex acts."

To clear up confusion about what porn is generally about, academic researchers Robert Wosnitzer, Ana Bridges, and Erica Scharrer, together with coders like Michelle Chang, analyzed 50 recent top selling porn films selected from lists compiled by Adult Video News, the leading trade journal of the porn industry. Their 71-minute presentation to the Pornography and Pop Culture conference in March is available as a Google Video. The conference agenda summarized the intent of their study, "Analyzing the Pornographic Text: Charting and Mapping Pornography Through Content Analysis":

One of the limitations of the discussion of the content of hardcore pornography has been the lack of large-scale content analyses. An extensive new study of mainstream hardcore pornography -- the most important content analysis in more than a decade -- will provide an important base from which to evaluate the messages in pornography. The researchers (from New York University, the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, the University of Texas at Austin, and the University of Rhode Island) have created a sophisticated coding protocol that was applied to 50 of the most popular hardcore films, and the results reveal much about the deep misogyny of the industry. Members of the research team will give the conference a preview of some of the key findings that will be appearing in future publications. The panel will also include a discussion of the issues encountered by the coding team who spent many hours viewing pornography.

Here are some of the highlights from this presentation:

5min:20sec into the video presentation - Many in academia think porn is a trivial issue

Robert Wosnitzer: "As I'm here faced with where I'm going next in my doctoral studies, and I'm being encouraged to leave the 'porn thing' behind, it certainly underscores the importance of doing this work... 'cause the 'porn thing' isn't taken seriously enough. As we were talking about earlier in some of the presentations about how in the academy, porn is being talked about. It's not serious. It's not worth considering. Well I insistently think that's fundamentally flawed."



6min:45sec - Many young people get their sex education from porn

Clip from HBO documentary, "Thinking XXX" (2006)

"...my astonishment that these young women would watch porn literally as instructional videos... to learn how to position themselves better or how to give better blow jobs... for me it was just laced with such shame."

7min:20sec - New porn performer reluctant to be 'difficult'

Clip from ABC news show, "The Outsiders" (2007)

Porn actress: "...I think he saw the opportunity to kind of take advantage that...I wasn't really going to say much, I wasn't going to stop the scene altogether because I'm still new and I don't want to be blacklisted..."

Narrator: "Filmmakers are now pushing performers more and more to extremes. Sophia is nervous about the pressure to perform sex acts she's uncomfortable with."

9min:40sec - Aggressive and violent pornography is common, contrary to some people's perceptions

Wosnitzer: "Both of those clips say that aggressive and violent pornography is the exception and not the rule... What we will claim is that...aggressive and violent pornography is the rule. It's not the exception."

13min:38sec - The researchers looked for positive behaviors as well as negative ones

Wosnitzer: "...we're also taking a look at the arguments that you'll hear from pro-pornography, and somewhat accepting them and trying to prove them, and in doing that we disprove them... So one of the things we said was, 'Let's code for positive behaviors.'"

15min:00sec - The researchers looked at targets' reaction to aggression

Wosnitzer: "...how is sexuality and aggression being fused together in one scene?... When an act of aggression did occur we wanted to know, what was the response of the person being aggressed?"

15min:44sec - In non-porn media, aggressors usually suffer consequences

Wosnitzer: "Typically when aggression occurs in television studies, there's usually some bad consequence to it... Somebody's either punished or they're hunted down or killed or something else..."

16min:45sec - The reseachers focused on the porn that is commonly being viewed today

Wosnitzer: "We went through Adult Video News every month. [It] publishes a list of the top 250 best sold and rented adult DVDs... [W]e avoided the issue of 'What is pornography?' because AVN defined it for us, in a sense... We took the top 50 from each month, went back over a six month period, randomly generated took the top 50 films. We coded by scene. We had a total of 304 scenes that we coded over this randomly generated list of the top 50 films.

17min:50sec - Definition of aggression and violence in the study

Wosnitzer: "We can read aggression and violence defined as any action causing or attempting to cause physical or psychological harm to oneself, to another person, animal or inanimate object, intentionally or accidentally, whereby physical harm is understood as assaulting another verbally and nonverbally."

18min:27sec - This study has been peer reviewed and accepted to conferences

Wosnitzer: "We have not published this research yet. It's in the process of being published. It has been accepted to scholarly conferences, peer reviewed. This isn't some ad hoc study that we just said, 'Look at what we got' and cooked up some numbers."

21min:50sec - Aggressive acts frequent in the porn films

Ana Bridges: "...I'm going to begin to talk about what it is that we found after looking at these 304 scenes in these 50 top selling pornographic films. In total in the 304 scenes we coded a total of 3,376 acts of aggression. That ends up averaging...to an aggressive act every minute and a half. The scenes on average contained eleven and a half acts of verbal or physical aggression..."

That other link doesn't seem to be working,Chica.

SO,now i'm sitting through the other link..and rapidly losing the will to live!
sorry, Im interested in this debate, could sommeone please give me a summary or a conclusion or.. , as im.. lazy. :o

23min:30sec - Condom use rare on the set

Bridges: "...condoms were present in 11 percent of the scenes... A discussion of 'Let's be safe' or 'Put on a condom' or something of that happened in...one scene of the 304. Nice 'education'."

24min:00sec - Certain sex acts much more prevalent in porn than in reality

Bridges: "...we were able to code the sex acts and also compare them to the study that had been done in 1994. It was a very large national survey of actual adult sex practices. And so we were able to say, 'Well, how well is pornography, popular pornography, portraying the reality of sex as it is actually being practiced and desired? ...[F]emale to male oral sex was grossly overrepresented in pornography compared to...this national survey. Same with anal penetration... I think 1 to 2% of people said 'Yeah, that's great, I want to do it,' but in 56% of scenes we're seeing anal penetration being shown. Female to female oral was shown in 23% of scenes, and less than 1% of women said that this was something they found very appealing or did.

"...what it essentially amounted to is that the desires and sexual practices of men were well represented, were overrepresented, and the desires and sexual practices of women were grossly underrepresented."

26min:30sec - Extreme acts common in porn, predictive of aggression

Bridges: "We also coded for, what...we're calling loosely in this talk, 'extreme acts' (of sex acts). The only sexual sequence that we coded, which is...when one thing follows another, was something called ATM...'ass-to-mouth'. This literally involves anal penetration followed by oral sex...she is literally eating her own shit. That occurred in 41% of the scenes that we coded.

"Furthermore, every single one of these acts, as a whole these extreme acts, these were the only acts that were predictive of aggression in the scene. So if you actually say, 'Can the kind of sex acts that are happening, can that tell us anything about whether a scene is going to be aggressive? Yes... These tell you the likelihood of there being other kinds of aggression in the scene, when these sex acts were represented, was...anywhere between 4 and 8 times more likely."

28min:28sec - Few porn scenes lack aggression

Bridges: "So how many scenes didn't contain aggression? About 10%."

28min:45sec - Namecalling and insults common in porn

Bridges: "For verbal aggression, by far namecalling and insulting were the most common types. They were seen in almost half of scenes."

29min:29sec - Gagging and choking surprisingly common

Bridges: "Gagging and choking were much, much more common than any of us thought when we first walked into this project."

30min:10sec - 73% of the aggressors are men; women are the usual targets

Bridges: "Slapping happened 30% of the time... Most of the aggressors in these films were men...73%. By far the most common recipient of aggression was a woman. Even when women were aggressing, they were generally aggressing other women."

30min:43sec - Targets in porn almost always show pleasure or neutrality when aggressed against

Bridges: "How did the person respond when they were aggressed?... In 95% of these 3,000 and some acts of aggression, the person was either neutral, as in no change of facial expression or verbal expression, or was sort of saying, 'That feels great. Keep doing it. Right on.' And in only 3% did we see some overt expression of displeasure or pain. Again, it seems to be very important to the people who are watching this to believe that the recipient of aggression is fact enjoying it, is choosing it at some level."

31min:30sec - Porn conditions men to be aggressive and expect that women will like it

Bridges: "So in psychology, my field, we don't know a ton about human behavior but there is one thing we do know, and that's that people imitate what they see others rewarded for doing... [I]n the majority of cases [in the porn scenes], being the aggressor was something that paid off, it was reinforcing, it made it more likely that the behavior would happen again. And if you're the one who's watching it, it makes it more likely that you're going to say, 'Yeah, that sounds pretty good. They seem to like it. My girlfriend probably would, too.' In no case...was the person in some way punished or discouraged from aggressing."

33min:30sec - Porn films show 9 negative behaviors for every positive one

Bridges: "...in couples research we know that couples, even couples who fight a lot, as long as there's a lot of good in the relationship, about five times more good than bad, they actually do pretty well.

"Less than 10% of the videos showed any kind of a positive act, and that included kissing... caressing happened maybe twice. Something like a verbal compliment, 'Gosh, you look pretty', not, 'Slut bitch, come over here,' that happened maybe five times in the 304 scenes. So we have a ratio of positive to negative behaviors of 1 to 9, which is not a sustainable, happy relationship."

34min:32sec - Female-directed porn in the sample was little different from the rest

Bridges: "And we're actually going to get back to one of the issues that was brought up earlier today, which is, 'Well, you know, maybe we just go out and make 'fem-porn', we get more females to direct it. And then, it'll be more egalitarian, it'll be the kind of thing that we can all embrace and say, 'Yes, this is what we want.'

"Well, of the popular films that we coded, less than 7% were directed by females. It is still dominated by very male-directed films. And we are now in the process of writing our second article from this study [where] we look at female-directed films specifically. And guess what. They're not different. Not the bestselling popular ones. They're on the whole just as violent, just as aggressive... One difference we've noted consistently is that they tend to show much more female to female aggression."

36min:44sec - Porn teaches men to aggress

Bridges: "...we are teaching people to aggress. We are teaching people that slapping your girlfriend during the process of having sex is something that she will enjoy."

40min-59min

Michelle Chang describes her experience viewing and coding 33 of the porn films in the study.



59min-62min

Wosnitzer discusses the ethics of conducting porn studies, how to make a safe environment for the researchers.

62min-71min

Question & Answer period.

So has this thread turn into a MAST-debate!
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k238/morrisseysolo/LOL-Monty_Python_Applause.gif

It seems like I disagree with some points, and agree with others in all these links and videos. I agree with that video. Porn is changing for the worst, and the industry should be more regulated blah blah blah. But I'm sick of all the anti-porn people trying to fit in their ultra-feminist views into the mix. Peoples interpretation of masculinity is being an overconfident asshole, so now we have people thinking masculinity bad - feminism good. In reality Masculinity is a good thing if viewed in a spiritual way, used to get things done and have a powerful voice. If you think about it, the 70s feminist movement was very masculine. It not just about the difference between being "emotional" and being "strong".

There must be a balance among (genuine) femininity and (real) masculinity.

if viewed in a spiritual way

Aww :)
Spirituality is a great thing. I'd say that it's a real shame it's been so suppressed by carnality. I suppose that's because carnality was suppressed by spirituality for so many centuries. Can't we just be normal and complete? :rolleyes:

Just watching the video,Chica and it seems that Wosnitzer et al include spanking as violent behaviour!

Thanks for that last post too,Chica

You're welcome.

I for one hope spanking hasn't become standard yet :eek:

Aww :)
Spirituality is a great thing. I'd say that it's a real shame it's been so suppressed by carnality. I suppose that's because carnality was suppressed by spirituality for so many centuries. Can't we just be normal and complete? :rolleyes:

No, because people want things to be black vs white these days. This is why there is a violent porn backlash and an anti-sexual backlash following it closely.

i don't like it when anti-porn people are labeled sex-negative... or if you're not kinky, you're prudish... black and white indeed.

No, because people want things to be black vs white these days. This is why there is a violent porn backlash and an anti-sexual backlash following it closely.

Wouldn't you say porn is more freely available and easy to make and distributed in this age, then ever before. Therefore more people are victims to the corrupt side of it and are abused to make money that they will never see, which in my eyes is the main problem with this 'industry'.

For the one multi millionarie Jenna Jameson, there is a hundred more women emotionally destroyed by these film makers and directors.

I'm starting to wonder if there are women in that business who haven't been raped... I didn't know Jenna was.

i don't like it when anti-porn people are labeled sex-negative... or if you're not kinky, you're prudish... black and white indeed.

Or if your way too kinky, and enjoy some porn, your an asshole who oppresses women. :p

But the truth is I'm meeting a lot more sex-negative people recently and they are completely shut off to all logic and they immediately pull out the "objectivity" card as their biggest argument. Why can't there be a middle ground?!?!?!

Wouldn't you say porn is more freely available and easy to make and distributed in this age, then ever before. Therefore more people are victims to the corrupt side of it and are abused to make money that they will never see, which in my eyes is the main problem with this 'industry'.

That too.

I'm starting to wonder if there are women in that business who haven't been raped... I didn't know Jenna was.

I would believe all of them have been raped in some way.

Or if your way too kinky, and enjoy some porn, your an asshole who oppresses women. :p

That's why we have this thread! We want to determine what porn is ethically made, so nobody can tell you it's wrong to watch it.

And the answer is... ummm... none? :p

I would believe all of them have been raped in some way.

Really?!!
How do you come to that conclusion?

Also,where is the eveidence that Jenna was raped?Is there a link to something I've missed here?

That's why we have this thread! We want to determine what porn is ethically made, so nobody can tell you it's wrong to watch it.

And the answer is... ummm... none? :p

You're talking about boy-girl hardcore porn thought, no one has even mentioned glamor models, amateur porn, some gay porn, or soft/moderate porn once yet. Theres plenty of that porn for ethical people circulating in the 'industry'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenna_Jameson#Early_life

In her autobiography, Massoli writes that in October 1990, while the family was living on a cattle ranch in Fromberg, Montana, she was beaten with rocks and gang raped by four boys after a football game.[12] She says she was raped a second time, while still sixteen, by her boyfriend Jack's biker uncle, Preacher.[12] (Preacher has denied this.)[14] Rather than tell her father, she left home and moved in with Jack in her first serious relationship.

I'm not sure why victims of sexual abuse choose to work in sex industry... I guess it's one of the ways of coping with it, so their rape doesn't seem like a big deal. Then they can think 'I have sex with strangers all the time, you don't have to like someone to have sex with them'... and so on.

You're talking about boy-girl hardcore porn thought, no one has even mentioned glamor models, amateur porn, some gay porn, or soft/moderate porn once yet. Theres plenty of that porn for ethical people circulating in the 'industry'.

I mentioned amateur porn once :D

I think small manufactures are okay, there are greater chances that people are filming it for their own pleasure.

Really?!!
How do you come to that conclusion?

Also,where is the eveidence that Jenna was raped?Is there a link to something I've missed here?

Do you think that every time they are filmed that they really want to have sex! That they may want it to stop, but have to wait until the director says so. I've seen some documentaries, those chaps behind these films are right nasty bastards and don't care about the actress at all.

Jenna she has spoken about it.

That's why we have this thread! We want to determine what porn is ethically made, so nobody can tell you it's wrong to watch it.

And the answer is... ummm... none? :p

Really depends on your definition of "ethically"
There are lots of female produced,female controlled,female orientated porn too

Really depends on your definition of "ethically"
There are lots of female produced,female controlled,female orientated porn too

No, the gender of the person behind the camera doesn't have to mean anything, sadly... Maggie Thatcher, anyone? :rolleyes:

Do you think that every time they are filmed that they really want to have sex! That they may want it to stop, but have to wait until the director says so. I've seen some documentaries, those chaps behind these films are right nasty bastards and don't care about the actress at all.

Jenna she has spoken about it.

No,of course,not there are times they don't feel like sex but it's their job.I'm sure all kinds of performers ,sometimes,don't want to do their job but they do:it doesn't mean they have been coerced.

You've seen "some documentaries"..it doesn't follow that all porn is made that way.

No,of course,not there are times they don't feel like sex but it's their job.I'm sure all kinds of performers ,sometimes,don't want to do their job but they do:it doesn't mean they have been coerced.

You've seen "some documentaries"..it doesn't follow that all porn is made that way.

It's very common that actresses don't agree to perform certain acts, but when they're already on the set they are blackmailed to do it or lose the job and not be paid for what had already been filmed. It doesn't happen to high-profile actresses, but they are few.

Alright, I'm done here. We're getting to the point where we are discussing and arguing about semantics as opposed to the real issue. And no one seems to understand how the hardcore industry does not represent pornography as a whole, just its mainstream majority. And guess what! Thats gonna change, because in modern society an industry can only digress so far until there is a huge backlash against it. So we can all say the industry is horrible, but porn is truly great at its roots.

For good porn, all you need is to type Violet Blue into your Google search engine (don't worry shes indirectly connected to pornography).

It's very common that actresses don't agree to perform certain acts, but when they're already on the set they are blackmailed to do it or lose the job and not be paid for what had already been filmed. It doesn't happen to high-profile actresses, but they are few.

Ah,but again these are the exceptions rather than the rule

If the anti porn lobby include spanking as violence,there is something very strange about them and their way of looking at the world.

Back to the original question though,how can watching sex be immoral?
I don't,however,dispute that there are some abuses of power in the movie industry in general(including porn),just as there is in any other jobs.

Good to see a debate on here though.

Still to hear a good argument that it IS immoral though

Alright, I'm done here. We're getting to the point where we are discussing and arguing about semantics as opposed to the real issue. And no one seems to understand how the hardcore industry does not represent pornography as a whole, just its mainstream majority. .

Oh damn you SIr Alec. I can't argue with you there.AGAIN.
You're pretty much on the ball

It's very common that actresses don't agree to perform certain acts, but when they're already on the set they are blackmailed to do it or lose the job and not be paid for what had already been filmed. It doesn't happen to high-profile actresses, but they are few.

Linda Lovelace comes to mind. Before she did "Deep Throat", which she says she was forced to do, her boyfriend forced her to have sex with a dog on camera. She says that a gun was held to her head in both movies, and apparently she has very clear bruises in "Deep Throat" (I can't say myself, I've never seen the movie).

Back to the original question though,how can watching sex be immoral?

Unethical, not immoral. For example, shopping in Benetton is unethical, because you contribute to the suffering of Australian sheep.

Sorry Sir Alec, but I'm afraid that few porn consumers are concerned about where their porn comes from. It's so much easier to believe that all those women are super happy to be doing what they're doing. I suppose that's why so many pro-porn people get so defensive when these questions are raised.

P.S. "just" it's mainstream majority? Honey, when something BAD is in majority, you have a real problem there! Don't you follow elections?

Linda Lovelace comes to mind. Before she did "Deep Throat", which she says she was forced to do, her boyfriend forced her to have sex with a dog on camera. She says that a gun was held to her head in both movies, and apparently she has very clear bruises in "Deep Throat" (I can't say myself, I've never seen the movie).

An exception again.

Examples like this does not make porn or the viewing of it,unethical

Linda Lovelace comes to mind. Before she did "Deep Throat", which she says she was forced to do, her boyfriend forced her to have sex with a dog on camera. She says that a gun was held to her head in both movies, and apparently she has very clear bruises in "Deep Throat" (I can't say myself, I've never seen the movie).

But why would our average porn consumer believe that she was telling the truth? He doesn't want things like that to spoil the fun! Defense mechanisms, the miracle of nature :rolleyes:

Unethical, not immoral. For example, shopping in Benetton is unethical, because you contribute to the suffering of Australian sheep.

Sorry Sir Alec, but I'm afraid that few porn consumers are concerned about where their porn comes from. It's so much easier to believe that all those women are super happy to be doing what they're doing. I suppose that's why so many pro-porn people get so defensive when these questions are raised.



Now ,we are getting into semantics,like Sir Alec said.
I'm sure not all the women(again,why mention ONLY the women?) are super happy but then again most people aren't SUPER HAPPY in their jobs.
Aww,the poor wee Aussie sheep though

Unethical, not immoral.

I thought unethical means "not morally correct"

Sorry Sir Alec, but I'm afraid that few porn consumers are concerned about where their porn comes from. It's so much easier to believe that all those women are super happy to be doing what they're doing. I suppose that's why so many pro-porn people get so defensive when these questions are raised.

P.S. "just" it's mainstream majority? Honey, when something BAD is in majority, you have a real problem there! Don't you follow elections?

Sorry, I didn't mean it like it was just a small issue. I side with you, and you've really convinced me of a lot I had little knowledge of, but I'm just trying to separate things. Thank you my dear.

Now ,we are getting into semantics,like Sir Alec said.
I'm sure not all the women(again,why mention ONLY the women?) are super happy but then again most people aren't SUPER HAPPY in their jobs.

Exactly. That's why we say that some companies are more ethical than others.
If we're not talking about male gay porn, it's more difficult to argue that men in porn industry are quite as unhappy as women, since they can't fake orgasms :confused:

Aww,the poor wee Aussie sheep though

Lol, but it is horrible, I saw it on film! Imagine how it feels to have your skin removed without anesthetics :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulesing

An exception again.


I'm sure it happens more often than we'd like to think.

The fact of the matter is, most women in the porn industry aren't in it because they are nymphoniacs who enjoy having sex with strangers, they're in it because they have little to no education and are looking to feed themselves or their children. Do you think most prostitutes have law degrees?

This doesn't make viewing porn unethical neccessarily, but it's definetly something to think about. Cases such as Linda's are not uncommon.

I thought unethical means "not morally correct"

Yes it does, and it's semantics, which you're against :p In practice however, when we talk about consumerism, we call something ethical or unethical, not immoral. I don't know why, it's a matter of convention.

Sorry, I didn't mean it like it was just a small issue. I side with you, and you've really convinced me of a lot I had little knowledge of, but I'm just trying to separate things. Thank you my dear.

Anytime :D
P.S. I'd like to thank Dan Savage for planting the seed of doubt into my mind, I too once thought that all porn was just great ;)

Anytime :D
P.S. I'd like to thank Dan Savage for planting the seed of doubt into my mind, I too once thought that all porn was just great ;)

I have an idea. Lets all stop talking about depressing shit like the mainstream porn industry and take a visit over to Mr. Savage (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?archives=all).

And read letters from all those sick kinky people? :rolleyes:
:p

And read letters from all those sick kinky people? :rolleyes:
:p

Yeah, why not?!

And to everyone else, who knows? Maybe Chica and I are common contributors.

I have an idea. Lets all stop talking about depressing shit like the mainstream porn industry and take a visit over to Mr. Savage (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?archives=all).

I like those. Thanks for introducing me to them.

One of my favourites, and sort of on topic:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=262650

Sure, IPRUDE, "make him" stop. Make your 14-year-old son stop looking at all the free porn on the internet. Sounds like a plan. And after your son stops looking at internet porn, IPRUDE, be a doll and make George W. Bush pull our troops out of Iraq, fire Dick Cheney, and institute a single-payer health-care system. And then make him resign. Thanks.

:p

^ That's a good life motto, judge!

Now, back on topic: AlterNet seems to be publishing articles based on the discussions we have here on Solo :confused:

Pornography and the End of Masculinity (http://www.alternet.org/sex/62833/)

... follow-up!!!

Is Pornography Really Harmful? (http://www.alternet.org/sex/67144/?page=1)

... follow-up!!!

Is Pornography Really Harmful? (http://www.alternet.org/sex/67144/?page=1)

to relationships?

yea if it involves Morrissey and his band mates bonking the hell out of each other...
that is another story though.

Tee-hee! :p

I've just visited the frink thread after a long while, I can't believe there can be 400 and more pages of frinky Morrissey photos!!!

Tee-hee! :p

I've just visited the frink thread after a long while, I can't believe there can be 400 and more pages of frinky Morrissey photos!!!

oh yes! pure porn for the Frinker. :D

This anti-Playboy propaganda comes from a site called "binthebunny.com", which is run by a group called Anti-Porn UK, and where they declare:

Anti-Porn UK is against pornography because of the violence and damage that porn causes to women; the objectification of women that porn promotes and the wider damage this has on society as a whole; and the lack of female autonomous sexuality this offers and the damage this causes to women’s sexual expression and enjoyment.


Yawn. Didn't we get over this stuff from the sillier, prudest feminists back in the early-90s? BTW, a lot of women like porn.

And rather funny that they hype up one article that appeared in Romania to demonize Hefner.

From the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/725720.stm


Initially, deputy editor Mihai Galatanu claimed the article had been an April Fool's joke, adding that the procedure for abuse described in the magazine "cannot work" anyway.

But Christie Hefner, Playboy Enterprises chairman [a FEMALE] has now apologised to Romanian women for the article and reprimanded the Romanian chief editor.

"This article flies in the face of Playboy's 46-year history of strongly opposing any visual or editorial depiction of violence toward women," she said.

Local rights activist Oana Popa welcomed the statement.

"We got apologies from Playboy, plus promises that they will print stories to educate Romanian men against violence at home," she said.

"Playboy have promised to fund shelters for battered women, and for our projects to combat domestic violence," she added.

So, turns out Playboy is not so evil. And, BTW, I doubt I'd label Playboy a pornographic magazine.

Morrissey has still not apologized for recommending his fans make violent terrorist attacks (such as mail bombs to family residences) against scientists working on cures for AIDS and cancer. I guess Christie Hefner is far more ethical.

http://binthebunny.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/playboy-quiz-l.jpg

Porn doesn't appeal to me because usually is geared towards chauvinistic men who would like to be in control....and the women in it are belittled and called derrogatory things...it's very demeaning.

I`m not bothered by porn.

I have however known men who are utterly obsessed with it.If you are buying dirty mags in your lunch hour.Watching porn every single evening.Looking at stuff all the time on the internet you are a complete and utter saddo.Porn much like Alan Titchmarsh has its place in society-about half an hour weekly.:D

Frankly i`d rather have a cup of tea and watch Breakfast at Tiffanys.

Porn doesn't appeal to me because usually is geared towards chauvinistic men who would like to be in control....and the women in it are belittled and called derrogatory things...it's very demeaning.

Thats not true. Theres plenty of non domineering male porn out there. Trust me I've done my research. It seems like just because there is a large percentage of bad porn out there, it gives great porn such a bad image.

EDIT: Sorry I misread you.

I`m not bothered by porn.

I have however known men who are utterly obsessed with it.If you are buying dirty mags in your lunch hour.Watching porn every single evening.Looking at stuff all the time on the internet you are a complete and utter saddo.Porn much like Alan Titchmarsh has its place in society-about half an hour weekly.:D

Frankly i`d rather have a cup of tea and watch Breakfast at Tiffanys.

Wow, what a waste of money. Hell, more than a few mags total spanned across an entire decade would be a waste of money to me. Those guys are practically being used!

What if you steal it?

.Porn much like Alan Titchmarsh has its place in society-about half an hour weekly.

like in a garden shed?

What if you steal it?

No that is really bad, as the shops etc can't make any money from selling the magazines. Also that means the magazine publishers etc lose money. then there won't be any more porn..... Then that just leads to anarchy and stuff like that innit geezer!



footnote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm0zAI9oW9w

Bump? :D

Bump? :D

i'm consuming some at the moment.

Is consuming corn ethical?

I had to search the thread to make sure I hadn't made that joke already. :o

i'm consuming some at the moment.


That's fine by me. :D

That's fine by me. :D

ummm... i'll just get on with it then.

ummm... i'll just get on with it then.

Surely you finished long ago?

Surely you finished long ago?

i was waiting for kewpie's blessing before proceeding.

nearly done.

i was waiting for kewpie's blessing before proceeding.

nearly done.

I don't even know how to reply without getting banned. :D

I don't even know how to reply without getting banned. :D

true... ...and the wife might divorce me

true... ...and the wife might divorce me

Don't worry, hattie won't be too upset about it.
Do some housework and give her massage. ;)

Finished? It's been 17 minutes!

Don't worry, hattie won't be too upset about it.
Do some housework and give her massage. ;)

i'll do the massage bit; wanking is an alternative to housework.

Finished? It's been 17 minutes!

no! you all keep putting me off.

Yes?
http://renegadeevolution.blogspot.com/2007/06/slut.html

No?
http://www.mediawatch.com/wordpress/?p=28

I honestly think that looking at porn is a harmless diversion. I don't believe these women (or men, except for Ron Jeremy haha) are somehow being coerced into it. Porn is going to be around forever. Then it becomes a moral issue. If porn were banned, the Judeo Christians would just look for another excuse to find something else that they consider immoral. Books. Fahrenheit 451 for example. Books were deemed *dangerous*. I personally think there should be NO banning of books. Not even the most disgusting ones. If one isn't interested don't look at the book. The same with porn. Personally I find porn to be very....pedestrian. It's boring as hell. I want the real thing! :D

Personally I find porn to be very....pedestrian.

you're watching the wrong stuff

How many of you filmed yourself?

*runs away* :p

How many of you filmed yourself?

*runs away* :p

Do you have a confession to make, Kewpie?

How many of you filmed yourself?

*runs away* :p

Are you after more stuff for your smut stash, Kewp? :p

How many of you filmed yourself?

*runs away* :p

drunk kewpie?

I voted yes because it's the only exercise i get. So it must be healthy.:)

Sure it's ethical, just ask PENIS.

People for the Ethical Niceness Involving Sex

I don't believe these women (or men, except for Ron Jeremy haha) are somehow being coerced into it.

Some of them are.

Short answer: I don't know if it's unethical but I bet it's hell on you're digestion! I know, I should've done stand-up.

Seriously folks.. Theres' almost too many fallacies and distortions in this argument to address, I'll simply go for the most basic... (Although, I find it interesting that those who are interested in raising the subject are those that don't "consume" it.) This raises bigger issues about consumer ethics in general. One of the main complaints is that some of the women in the porn industry are abused. I would urge you to examine the tags on you're clothing. How many women slaved for pennies to make you're pants? Or you're blouse? Etc., etc. Even the food we eat. I've posted several times that it's hypocritical for the Broccoli Brigade to harass me for having blood on my plate when the plant matter they ingest was picked by workers who can barely afford food and water, the brutal Armas regime in Guatemala was largely put in place as a result of United Fruit Co. Why do you pick this one issue? And why is it worse than sweatshop labor, or corporations that support third world police states? Or how about our government which is involved in a brutal illegal war?

Short answer: I don't know if it's unethical but I bet it's hell on you're digestion! I know, I should've done stand-up.

Seriously folks.. Theres' almost too many fallacies and distortions in this argument to address, I'll simply go for the most basic... (Although, I find it interesting that those who are interested in raising the subject are those that don't "consume" it.) This raises bigger issues about consumer ethics in general. One of the main complaints is that some of the women in the porn industry are abused. I would urge you to examine the tags on you're clothing. How many women slaved for pennies to make you're pants? Or you're blouse? Etc., etc. Even the food we eat. I've posted several times that it's hypocritical for the Broccoli Brigade to harass me for having blood on my plate when the plant matter they ingest was picked by workers who can barely afford food and water, the brutal Armas regime in Guatemala was largely put in place as a result of United Fruit Co. Why do you pick this one issue? And why is it worse than sweatshop labor, or corporations that support third world police states? Or how about our government which is involved in a brutal illegal war?

Sad but true. :(

Also, aren't porn actresses all on coke? A lot of slave labour is used to produce and transport it.

I think people should be free to look at it when they are mature adults.
I don't necessarily think it's ethical, but really it's noone's business
what one does in privacy as long as noone is getting hurt.
I think wars and bombs are much worse than porn.
But I also think there is too much porn and wonder how people
would behave if porn was completely non existent?

Seriously folks.. Theres' almost too many fallacies and distortions in this argument to address, I'll simply go for the most basic... (Although, I find it interesting that those who are interested in raising the subject are those that don't "consume" it.) This raises bigger issues about consumer ethics in general. One of the main complaints is that some of the women in the porn industry are abused. I would urge you to examine the tags on you're clothing. How many women slaved for pennies to make you're pants? Or you're blouse? Etc., etc. Even the food we eat. I've posted several times that it's hypocritical for the Broccoli Brigade to harass me for having blood on my plate when the plant matter they ingest was picked by workers who can barely afford food and water, the brutal Armas regime in Guatemala was largely put in place as a result of United Fruit Co. Why do you pick this one issue? And why is it worse than sweatshop labor, or corporations that support third world police states? Or how about our government which is involved in a brutal illegal war?

Exactly my thoughts on the subject. There are far greater abuses in the world than the porn industry. Exploitation of sweatshop labour and third world farmers being the main ones for me.
And when porn is made in Western countries I don't worry too much as the industry is regulated to an reasonable degree. Which is also my rationale for legalising prostitution.

And when porn is made in Western countries I don't worry too much as the industry is regulated to an reasonable degree. Which is also my rationale for legalising prostitution.

However, demand exceeds supply in those countries where prostitution is legalised, that's why the Netherlands and Germany have become sex trafickers' Eldorado. I assume their slaves would much rather all countries have Swedish legislation, which efficiently suppresses demand. Alas, when did slaves' preferences matter. :rolleyes:

And when porn is made in Western countries I don't worry too much as the industry is regulated to an reasonable degree.

I have friends in the online slash writing community who are keen viewers of gay (male) porn, one of whom was telling me that her circle of porn-viewers boycott certain eastern european production houses because of the known coercion applied to the young men involved.

And when porn is made in Western countries I don't worry too much as the industry is regulated to an reasonable degree. Which is also my rationale for legalising prostitution.

Do you believe that legalizing prostituion would hinder or expand sexual trafficking?

Why do you pick this one issue? And why is it worse than sweatshop labor, or corporations that support third world police states? Or how about our government which is involved in a brutal illegal war?

The sexual abuse of women and men is not a small matter.

I'm not saying that all porn is bad. I'd be lying if I said I didn't watch it. But people do need to be aware that it exists. How much "amateur" footage on the internet is leaked because both parties want it to be on there?

I knew adding prostitution to this would get a little response!

However, demand exceeds supply in those countries where prostitution is legalised, that's why the Netherlands and Germany have become sex trafickers' Eldorado. I assume their slaves would much rather all countries have Swedish legislation, which efficiently suppresses demand. Alas, when did slaves' preferences matter. :rolleyes:

Interesting you mention the Swedish model, it's been discussed quite a bit in the UK in the past few months, and ministers are considering adopting it. However, the reports I have heard seem to conclude that it is not the answer, and many prostitutes were against shifting the criminal element on to the buyers and not the sellers (this was set against the backdrop of the Ipswich murders when safety of the girls was the key issue).

I have friends in the online slash writing community who are keen viewers of gay (male) porn, one of whom was telling me that her circle of porn-viewers boycott certain eastern european production houses because of the known coercion applied to the young men involved.

This doesn't surprise me, and I'm glad to hear they are boycotting it! I guess it's pretty difficult to be 100% sure that the porn you are watching is between consenting adults, but I'd certainly be very cautious about Eastern European and South American productions, to mention just a few.

Do you believe that legalizing prostituion would hinder or expand sexual trafficking?

I do think that it would decrease in real-terms. In official statistics it will probably increase, but that is only because legalising it would enable the government to keep better records. I can only really speak of my opinion of the UK, but our borders are not wide open (despite what the Daily Mail says), and someone coming from Eastern Europe and Russian and Balkans states need work permits (or similar documents) to enable them to work here. If they said they wanted to be prostitutes they would no doubt be turned down. Should they then decide to work as a prostitute illegally it would be easier for the police to police them. At present police forces in the UK have different approaches per region. When I lived in Leicester the police heavily prosecuted the street prostitutes and turned a blind eye to the brothels as they knew it was a safer environment for the girls.
Should a line be drawn in the UK at what is legal and what isn't (eg. regulated brothels were legal, street working isn't) then it would be easier to stop the trafficking as those girls (and men) wouldn't be able to work in the brothels.

I saw something really sad and disturbing last night, and it's caused me to possibly rethink my opinion of the porn industry. :(

When I lived in Leicester the police heavily prosecuted the street prostitutes and turned a blind eye to the brothels as they knew it was a safer environment for the girls.

OR

they had deals with brothel owners, and some of those brothels kept girls against their wish, probably Eastern Europeans who were promised to work as babysitters but whose passports were taken away from them and who were told they had to service cca 20 customers a day, without getting any money, because they had to pay off the debt to their owner... Sounds pretty, eh? :rolleyes:

I saw something really sad and disturbing last night, and it's caused me to possibly rethink my opinion of the porn industry. :(

Do tell! You're on the right thread...

You talk about the men and women who may have been coerced into it, what is more alarming are the amounts of child pornography that seem to be available online. Not, obviously that I have ever looked, but you hear of someone everyday being prosecuted fot it, so accessing it cannot be that difficult. Why can't these sites be closed down once discovered?

Do tell! You're on the right thread...

If you want to know you can PM me, chica. I'd rather not discuss it here. Let's just say I reported the site to a few child-abuse organizations.

OR

they had deals with brothel owners, and some of those brothels kept girls against their wish, probably Eastern Europeans who were promised to work as babysitters but whose passports were taken away from them and who were told they had to service cca 20 customers a day, without getting any money, because they had to pay off the debt to their owner... Sounds pretty, eh? :rolleyes:

Indeed, that isn't pretty, and I'm sure that goes on. That's why I'd call for brothels to be legalised and regulated, so this didn't happen.

For my particular example, I don't believe this was the case, as I know 3 people who visited one particular brothel (and no - I haven't!) and they all said they were seen by English girls. However, that was just one brothel. I haven't heard about any of the other brothels in Leicester.

You talk about the men and women who may have been coerced into it, what is more alarming are the amounts of child pornography that seem to be available online. Not, obviously that I have ever looked, but you hear of someone everyday being prosecuted fot it, so accessing it cannot be that difficult. Why can't these sites be closed down once discovered?

If anybody ever comes across anything like that, I would strongly advise reporting it to a site like this one: http://www.iwf.org.uk/howto/page.10.htm

I'm not joking when I say that this changed my life. I never want to see a child exploited ever again. I want to work to try to stop this.

You talk about the men and women who may have been coerced into it, what is more alarming are the amounts of child pornography that seem to be available online. Not, obviously that I have ever looked, but you hear of someone everyday being prosecuted fot it, so accessing it cannot be that difficult. Why can't these sites be closed down once discovered?

I guess this all comes down to policing the internet in general. I would have thought this would be so easy to do, but then I'm technically inept and don't really understand how the internet works.

I have to agree with how alarming it is for it being so seemingly widespread. The Shannon Matthews case for one - even if the Stepfather has nothing to do with her disappearance it's crazy how the police can just stumble across this.

You talk about the men and women who may have been coerced into it, what is more alarming are the amounts of child pornography that seem to be available online. Not, obviously that I have ever looked, but you hear of someone everyday being prosecuted fot it, so accessing it cannot be that difficult. Why can't these sites be closed down once discovered?


I've been using upload search engines (trying to track down a leaked advance of the new James album) and some of the "latest searches" I've seen listed on the search pages have horrified me; "14 year old fuck", "ten year old ejaculation" are two that stuck in my mind. I'd like to hope that these searches are being initiated by people trying to locate and report such material so it can be deleted by Rapidshare, Megaupload et al, but...... :(

Indeed, that isn't pretty, and I'm sure that goes on. That's why I'd call for brothels to be legalised and regulated, so this didn't happen.

For my particular example, I don't believe this was the case, as I know 3 people who visited one particular brothel (and no - I haven't!) and they all said they were seen by English girls. However, that was just one brothel. I haven't heard about any of the other brothels in Leicester.

The thing is, once prostitution is legalized, you don't suddenly have hundreds of new girls applying to become prostitutes, but you do have more men eager to use professional service. Sex tourists, if not locals. There is a rise in demand and there will always be criminals willing to use somebody's free labour for their profit. There will be legal prostitutes, but there will also be illegal ones, sex slaves. Legalizing prostitution wouldn't make it easier to trace illegal brothels with trafficked women, they exist now too, and only very occasionally the police are able/willing to locate them and free the victims.

I've been using upload search engines (trying to track down a leaked advance of the new James album) and some of the "latest searches" I've seen listed on the search pages have horrified me; "14 year old fuck", "ten year old ejaculation" are two that stuck in my mind. I'd like to hope that these searches are being initiated by people trying to locate and report such material so it can be deleted by Rapidshare, Megaupload et al, but...... :(

It literally makes me want to throw up. Hopefully people report such material when they see it. You can even do it anonymously now.

I've been using upload search engines (trying to track down a leaked advance of the new James album) and some of the "latest searches" I've seen listed on the search pages have horrified me; "14 year old fuck", "ten year old ejaculation" are two that stuck in my mind. I'd like to hope that these searches are being initiated by people trying to locate and report such material so it can be deleted by Rapidshare, Megaupload et al, but...... :(


There are some truly eveil people in this world and sadly the internet has provided them with a platform to offer their vile illegal trades. No wonder some people think the internet is a bad thing.

The thing is, once prostitution is legalized, you don't suddenly have hundreds of new girls applying to become prostitutes, but you do have more men eager to use professional service. Sex tourists, if not locals. There is a rise in demand and there will always be criminals willing to use somebody's free labour for their profit. There will be legal prostitutes, but there will also be illegal ones, sex slaves. Legalizing prostitution wouldn't make it easier to trace illegal brothels with trafficked women, they exist now too, and only very occasionally the police are able/willing to locate them and free the victims.

You may be right Chica, but my views are that the system is completely broken and needs a radical overhaul. The Swedish model, while cutting the official government stats on prostitution seem to have drove most of it further underground and the girls in Sweden are more scared for their safety than they were before. Surely that is not the aim? (Although I do admit my knowledge of the Swedish system is confined to a select few news stories in the British press).

I can't really comment on the sex tourism issue. This has clearly been a factor in Amsterdam, but should it be legalised throughout Europe then there would be no need for this tourism so it wouldn't arise?

The one thing we certainly agree upon is the effort police put in to helping the trafficked girls. If they bother to address the issue they seem to be more concerned with prosecuting the traffickers, and not freeing the trafficked earlier. Of course, the traffickers HAVE to face prosecution, but I'd like to see the girls helped out far earlier.

I wonder if search engines are being monitored, for example to locate people who are looking for child porn :confused:

You may be right Chica, but my views are that the system is completely broken and needs a radical overhaul. The Swedish model, while cutting the official government stats on prostitution seem to have drove most of it further underground and the girls in Sweden are more scared for their safety than they were before. Surely that is not the aim? (Although I do admit my knowledge of the Swedish system is confined to a select few news stories in the British press).

I can't really comment on the sex tourism issue. This has clearly been a factor in Amsterdam, but should it be legalised throughout Europe then there would be no need for this tourism so it wouldn't arise?

The one thing we certainly agree upon is the effort police put in to helping the trafficked girls. If they bother to address the issue they seem to be more concerned with prosecuting the traffickers, and not freeing the trafficked earlier. Of course, the traffickers HAVE to face prosecution, but I'd like to see the girls helped out far earlier.

It does seem that the issue could be solved if every country legalized prostitution. Swedish prostitutes are not in danger more than before (after all, the police is on their side), but they do have fewer customers, which may cause existential problems for them, especially if they have no other qualifications. But sex trafficking in Finland and Baltic coutries has skyrocketed, the Swedes simply go abroad.

However, it's very unlikely that all Europe would accept that legislation. Besides, it's better to send the message 'look for another profession, girls' than 'hey, unemployed women! we've got something for you...'

Besides, it's better to send the message 'look for another profession, girls' than 'hey, unemployed women! we've got something for you...'

These women have the choice to choose whichever profession they wish. Prostitution has been a thriving business for thousands of years, and will continue to prosper. They may choose this area as a potential career or they may go to college or university.

Regardless of whether it is discouraged or not, the choice is up to them in the end, so it's not as if people need to go out of their way to 'discourage' it.

These women have the choice to choose whichever profession they wish. Prostitution has been a thriving business for thousands of years, and will continue to prosper. They may choose this area as a potential career or they may go to college or university.

Regardless of whether it is discouraged or not, the choice is up to them in the end, so it's not as if people need to go out of their way to 'discourage' it.

Women who chose to be prostitutes is one thing. It's their bodies, they can do whatever they want with them. That I have no problem with. It's when people are forced into it that I care.

It does seem that the issue could be solved if every country legalized prostitution. Swedish prostitutes are not in danger more than before (after all, the police is on their side), but they do have fewer customers, which may cause existential problems for them, especially if they have no other qualifications. But sex trafficking in Finland and Baltic coutries has skyrocketed, the Swedes simply go abroad.

Again, agreed. I do think it's highly unlikely anything will change in the next 20 or 30 years, and if we have the debate again then, I'm sure our arguments will be the same. It's too morally sensitive, and it will take a brave politician to tackle this. If changes like prosecuting the customer rather than the prostitute were implemented in the UK, I don't think it will have a major effect either way, and will far from eradicate the problem.


However, it's very unlikely that all Europe would accept that legislation. Besides, it's better to send the message 'look for another profession, girls' than 'hey, unemployed women! we've got something for you...'

My views often change on this. I often think about how much I dislike my job and think so what if a prostitute doesn't like their job...we all have to sell our souls in capitalism. But when I rationally think about it, it is of course different. I don't know a prostitute, but I can imagine it having major affects on their lives with forming relationships, understanding love, and the physical side of love. And even if they could deal with this - could their partner? Again, their relationships could suffer.

However, if a girl does want to sell her body, why shouldn't she be allowed to? Granted, not many girls would do it out of choice, but if they did, I don't see why it's the governments business to stop them.

These women have the choice to choose whichever profession they wish. Prostitution has been a thriving business for thousands of years, and will continue to prosper. They may choose this area as a potential career or they may go to college or university.

Regardless of whether it is discouraged or not, the choice is up to them in the end, so it's not as if people need to go out of their way to 'discourage' it.

I don't know what would be going out of one's way... I repeat, I'm very fond of the Swedish model, it gives prostitutes real power. For example, no client would dare do anything abusive to the prostitute, because if she called the police he would be arrested just for being there. The prostitute, on the other hand, has all support from public services she need. However, this system is suppressing demand, so it is sending out the message to prostitutes to change their profession.

Again, agreed. I do think it's highly unlikely anything will change in the next 20 or 30 years, and if we have the debate again then, I'm sure our arguments will be the same. It's too morally sensitive, and it will take a brave politician to tackle this. If changes like prosecuting the customer rather than the prostitute were implemented in the UK, I don't think it will have a major effect either way, and will far from eradicate the problem.

My views often change on this. I often think about how much I dislike my job and think so what if a prostitute doesn't like their job...we all have to sell our souls in capitalism. But when I rationally think about it, it is of course different. I don't know a prostitute, but I can imagine it having major affects on their lives with forming relationships, understanding love, and the physical side of love. And even if they could deal with this - could their partner? Again, their relationships could suffer.

However, if a girl does want to sell her body, why shouldn't she be allowed to? Granted, not many girls would do it out of choice, but if they did, I don't see why it's the governments business to stop them.

I agree, they should be allowed to do it, and they need protection from the government.

Paedophiles should be put to death.I might not deter all but it would make a lot of them think twice....and well, even one less child being abused and put up on the internet in exchange for one sad pathetic life in my mind is a good deal.It won't happen.But it should.

Interesting!

http://www.alternet.org/sex/81655/

"Progressive directors are challenging the misogyny that pervades most mainstream porn. But is it possible to make pornography feminist?"

chica, have you ever watched any films made by a French filmmaker Catherine Breillat?
She's originally a pornographic novelist now a filmmaker.
I've watched two or three of her films which are very thought provoking.

I remember reading about her, but I haven't watched her films... actually I only heard about her first film, but I was too young to be interested :D

Paedophiles should be put to death.I might not deter all but it would make a lot of them think twice....and well, even one less child being abused and put up on the internet in exchange for one sad pathetic life in my mind is a good deal.It won't happen.But it should.

Pedophiles usually come from broken homes where they were abused or molested themselves. They should be locked up... in a mental facility. Murder is not an answer, no matter how terrible they abuse kids. We could learn a lot from further research on them to try and end it in a civilized way.

http://www.alternet.org/sex/81655/


"I don't think there's anything wrong with jerking off to visual material, per se," says Comstock. "But that's a very narrow frame inside of which to address sexuality for me. I want to see sex dealt with in a way that [captures] what I really like about it, which is how connective and nourishing and compelling it can be."

It's like he read my mind. Good article!

chica, have you ever watched any films made by a French filmmaker Catherine Breillat?
She's originally a pornographic novelist now a filmmaker.
I've watched two or three of her films which are very thought provoking.


Did ya cum to her movies, Kewpie?

Pedophiles usually come from broken homes where they were abused or molested themselves. They should be locked up... in a mental facility. Murder is not an answer, no matter how terrible they abuse kids. We could learn a lot from further research on them to try and end it in a civilized way.

I think they found a gene responsible for pedophilia :eek:

I think they found a gene responsible for pedophilia :eek:

Hellie, Chica... Grab your guns because were going on a literal gene-ocide.