Same-Sex Church Wedding

[chica]

Should the government have the right to force church into accepting same-sex church wedding?

I know that ideally church and state should be separate, but don't you think that church has too much social responsibility to be allowed to continue with discrimination?

It's not like leaving the choice to the individual not to socialize with homosexuals or people with different skin colour. Church has much greater impact on society.

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

the government
along with the church should be destroyed
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/gulrober/her/symbols/m16r.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/gulrober/her/symbols/boyd_Large.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/gulrober/her/symbols/BP-005_crass-anok.jpg
ok, so im a little confused
:o

[Chartres]

Of course they should, what kind of world is it when to people aren't allowed to marry each other (no so called "freedom"). Either they have to quit or go to jail if they refuse.

[Busy Clippers]

chica, are you trying to break it to us about yourself and drunken goldfish?! If so, you are my buds and I will be supportive of your lifestyle choices. There's so little love in the world that who am I to judge you?!?!? :D

[chica]

Thank you Busy Clippers! :D But we'll have to persuade TWO churches to accept our... deviation :p

[Dupree]

Can me and Wolve be bridesmaids? :D

[Chartres]

I will be paparazzi.

[chica]

Of course people, the more the merrier!

[Kewpie]

Why do you have to marry in a church?
There're other nicer places to get married.:)

[chica]

Oh yes there are... A mountain or a tropical beach... *sigh*

Just to go back to the actual question, for people who do believe in God and who want to have a church wedding, how can their problem be solved? State intervention or not?

[Chartres]

Oh yes there are... A mountain or a tropical beach... *sigh*

Just to go back to the actual question, for people who do believe in God and who want to have a church wedding, how can their problem be solved? State intervention or not?

Why not Rome, it's such beautifull city, couldn't be better. And who knows who might pass by if you're at the Spanish Stepps?

[Dupree]

...but doesn't Christianity dislike homosexuality? I remember a friend of mine telling me I'd go to hell because I got a bit filthy with a female friend of mine.

Is that just strict Christianity?

[Kewpie]

I may be wrong, but Muslims also have similar homophobic attitude, haven't they?:confused:

[chica]

Well, some Christian churches approve of it...
I don't think same-sex marriage is legal in muslim countries. There is a debate about this in countries where it has been legalized.

Chartres, you just want an excuse to go to Rome again!

[Chartres]

Chartres, you just want an excuse to go to Rome again!

Well, yes, who dosen't? But it's a really romantic city so, it would suit fine.

[Disappointed]

Because churches are private institutions, I believe that they have the right to refuse to marry same-sex couples. The government should not intervene.

However, that being said, I heartily endorse the boycotting of private institutions which choose to discriminate against gays and lesbians. I haven't purchased any Boy Scout popcorn since they adopted their "no homosexual" policy a few years ago. I don't want to give my money to a group that discriminates.

[Chartres]

...but doesn't Christianity dislike homosexuality? I remember a friend of mine telling me I'd go to hell because I got a bit filthy with a female friend of mine.

Is that just strict Christianity?

Generally, most dislike it, catholics, orthodox, lutherans, angelicans, reformates, calvinists and so on. The churches who approve to it (like the Swedish Luther Church, who is the largest of them here) let's the vicars decide if they want to, it's kind of 50/50. Funny thing though that the Christ Democrats youth organisation had a homosexuall man as chairman, no one had asked him about it so they were kind of surpirsed when he said it. Mosst supported him though.

[Chartres]

I belive that Buddhism is quite homophobic aswell, Dalai Lama have said some really stupid things. Anyone seen John Saffran's programme?

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

*somebody said, 'religion is the opiate of the masses'
but ive had opium
and opium was always far better
:cool:

*=yes, i know who said it

[chica]

Because churches are private institutions, I believe that they have the right to refuse to marry same-sex couples. The government should not intervene.

However, that being said, I heartily endorse the boycotting of private institutions which choose to discriminate against gays and lesbians.
But the government has the right to intervene if a church (hypothetically) starts using swastika as a symbol :confused: It's not just left to citizens to boycott it. The government has to endorse certain values in a society.

[chica]

Maybe,
Robby :rolleyes:

http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showpost.php?p=381434&postcount=2

[Chartres]

Untill the year of 2000, the Swedish Lutheran Church was a part of the state (Since the 16th century) but now it's free but still has the right to claim tax from it's members (another reason to not be a member). Anyway, the state got barley no pover over them here.

And the swatstika is legal here in Sweden, depending on the way you use it, it's not legal to heil. There are acctually some american churches who is rude enough to use our ancient aesir religion to use it as a nationalistic/nazi religion.

[Busy Clippers]

There are a lot of different schools of Buddhism. Buddha himself didn't address homosexuality, only said not to "misuse" sex, which is generally interpreted by Zen Buddhist and Theravedans to mean either overindulging or to mean having sex with someone who can't consent. Aside from that, it's up to an individual person's own judgment.

On the other end of the continuum you have The Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhists, who interpret things a little more conservatively. HH the DL has made statements that he can't condone and does not understand homosexuality. But he has recommended tolerance and compassion for gays and lesbians.

Just thought I'd put that out there...

[chica]

And the swatstika is legal here in Sweden, depending on the way you use it,
Isn't that the country where charges were dismissed against a wife batterer (who also beat his children) because of his right to "cultural autonomy"? :p

[Chartres]

There are a lot of different schools of Buddhism. Buddha himself didn't address homosexuality, only said not to "misuse" sex, which is generally interpreted by Zen Buddhist and Theravedans to mean either overindulging or to mean having sex with someone who can't consent. Aside from that, it's up to an individual person's own judgment.

On the other end of the continuum you have The Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhists, who interpret things a little more conservatively. HH the DL has made statements that he can't condone and does not understand homosexuality. But he has recommended tolerance and compassion for gays and lesbians.

Just thought I'd put that out there...

I recommend that you see John Saffran's show.

Edit
I'll try find a link for you.

[Chartres]

Isn't that the country where charges were dismissed against a wife batterer (who also beat his children) because of his right to "cultural autonomy"? :p

Really, never heard about, they often get quite long jail sentences. Can't say however that our law is perfect, it's far from, especially when it comes to rape.

[chica]

Yes, I know Swedish regulations are great in many ways, but nothing can be perfect. I just wonder if there is a little too much freedom allowed in some western countries or there can never be enough of it :rolleyes:

(^^That was the case of an immigrant coming from some Muslim country, so his attorney claimed it was a usual practice there and the judge agreed)

[drunken goldfish]

chica, are you trying to break it to us about yourself and drunken goldfish?! If so, you are my buds and I will be supportive of your lifestyle choices. There's so little love in the world that who am I to judge you?!?!? :D

Thank you Busy Clippers! But we'll have to persuade TWO churches to accept our... deviation :p

LMAO! :D Actually chica, Reformed Jews have no problems with gay marriage, so something could be arranged ;) .
Seriously though this is a good thread but I'm just passing through so I'll give a proper reply later!

[chica]

Always on the run... :)

[drunken goldfish]

Well, that paper isn't going to write itself :rolleyes: . No more hijacking! Be back later.

[helmoz]

Sweden has some odd policies, apolgies to any Swedes on here, I know there are some. Isn't there actually a politcial party of paedophiles in Sweden? That's absolute MADNESS!
i thought it was holland that had the paedophile party, i could be wrong though...

[drunken goldfish]

Lots of interesting opinions here... I'm sorry chica but I have to - shock! horror! :) - disagree with you on this one. I support gay rights of course but also freedom of religion, and people have a right to believe God doesn't approve of gay marriage, sad as it is. Also, a given church doesn't owe anyone anything and can discriminate as much as it wants, since it's not mandatory to be a part of it - they don't have authority over you unless you accept it. The state on the other hand does owe its citizens equal opportunities and so it must make sure that there are secular options for gay marriage.

[chica]

Also, a given church doesn't owe anyone anything and can discriminate as much as it wants, since it's not mandatory to be a part of it - they don't have authority over you unless you accept it.
Well put, Fishy! In theory, but in practice, don't you think that church has such an overwhelming impact on society that it's hazardous to let it promote violation of human rights? As I said, it's not like me or you stating "that person shouldn't have this right", what church says actually matters to a large number of people, so it has a huge responsibility!

[drunken goldfish]

Well put, Fishy! In theory, but in practice, don't you think that church has such an overwhelming impact on society that it's hazardous to let it promote violation of human rights?
Tell me about it! Here in Israel there is no secular marriage at all, which casues tons of problems, not just for gays (if you want to get a civic marriage you have to go abroad - utterly ridiculous). One has to ask, though, if you start interfering in religions, where does it stop? For instance you could say circumsicion also violates human rights... (Sorry my examples are always from Judaism, it's my frame of reference, but I'm sure you can think of your own examples).

[chica]

For instance you could say circumsicion also violates human rights...
Ouch :( I do have an opinion (http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showpost.php?p=364522&postcount=581) about this, as a matter of fact, but that doesn't make me any less curious (http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showpost.php?p=381204&postcount=948)... I'm a bad person and I feel bad about it!

[drunken goldfish]

LOL, well, most Americans are circumcised so I'm sure if you look up porn stars your curiousity will be satisfied :p .

[chica]

You know, there are plenty of other threads where you can corrupt my innocent mind :rolleyes:

[drunken goldfish]

Bah! As if your mind could be corrupted any further! *goes to dig out off topic thread*

[the more you explore me!]

LOL, well, most Americans are circumcised so I'm sure if you look up porn stars your curiousity will be satisfied :p .

sorry to divert from the main topic...

most american's should be lobotomised, especially the porn stars!

[Pervomartovtsi]

love should be banned

[Sir Alec]

Ouch :( I do have an opinion (http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showpost.php?p=364522&postcount=581) about this, as a matter of fact, but that doesn't make me any less curious (http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showpost.php?p=381204&postcount=948)... I'm a bad person and I feel bad about it!

Circumcision makes it seem bigger.

love should be banned

Even thoughts of love? Only a Morrissey fan would say such a thing. ;)

[El Manzo]

Circumcision makes it seem bigger.

And less sensitive. That explains the lack of intense, explosive male orgasms in US porn.

[Disappointed]

But the government has the right to intervene if a church (hypothetically) starts using swastika as a symbol :confused: It's not just left to citizens to boycott it. The government has to endorse certain values in a society.

Actually, I don't think that the United States government (that's the one that I know best, of course) has a right to intervene if a private group uses the swastika (or any other symbol of hate) in public, as long as the private group doesn't do anything else. Now, if our hypothetical private group goes out to a synogogue (sp?) and spray-paints swastikas on its walls, then, yes, that private group would get in trouble with the law.

I think that governments should legalize secular same-sex marriage, and give same-sex couples the same benefits that opposite-sex couples receive.

Unfortunately, right now, the United States government's values oppose same-sex marriage. Many states are trying to make it illegal in their constitutions.

[Sir Alec]

And less sensitive. That explains the lack of intense, explosive male orgasms in US porn.

Actually, it depends on how it is done.

[Busy Clippers]

Actually, it depends on how it is done.

The surgery or the movie??:p

[El Manzo]

The surgery or the movie??:p

Or the male orgasm? Any tip to get an intense and explosive one?

[chica]

Kegel exercises :eek:

[Busy Clippers]

Kegel exercises :eek:

Have you seen the exercise equipment?!!?! Google it if you want, I'm NOT posting a link!:eek:

[chica]

Me lazy :( Post a link posta link postal ink po stalink postali nk postalutjmcx pdfitwhjgdm jrtponm dfwethjnyiorfr

[Busy Clippers]

Me lazy :( Post a link posta link postal ink po stalink postali nk postalutjmcx pdfitwhjgdm jrtponm dfwethjnyiorfr

If I get banned for this, you'll miss me:

http://www.kegelmasters.com/pwrx/pages/page.jsp?P_SITE_ID=44&P_PAGE_ID=575&rfid=gtr003

[El Manzo]

Kegel exercises :eek:

They can be dangerous. Getting a new wife it's easier and funnier. :D

[chica]

If I get banned for this, you'll miss me:

http://www.kegelmasters.com/pwrx/pages/page.jsp?P_SITE_ID=44&P_PAGE_ID=575&rfid=gtr003
Includes instructional DVD! :eek:
They can be dangerous. Getting a new wife it's easier and funnier. :D
Why dangerous?
Getting a new wife can be dangerous too! If it's me! http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/751.gif

[lilybett]

Same-sex marriage kills dinosaurs!

[El Manzo]

Includes instructional DVD! :eek:

Why dangerous?
Getting a new wife can be dangerous too! If it's me! http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/751.gif

They might cause diarrhea :eek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegel_exercise
You can't be dangerous, nahh...

[Busy Clippers]

They might cause diarrhea :eek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegel_exercise
You can't be dangerous, nahh...

Wait until I get to work tomorrow...I'll pick my moment and make that announcement!

[chica]

No-o, "Too much Kegel exercises all at once can also cause diarrhea."
Don't overdo it!

And tell us about the results :D

[El Manzo]

No-o, "Too much Kegel exercises all at once can also cause diarrhea."
Don't overdo it!

And tell us about the results :D

Those exercises really scare me...

[chica]

:rolleyes:
Well get somebody help you with them! :p

[El Manzo]

:rolleyes:
Well get somebody help you with them! :p

He He He. Ok, but now it's too late and I feel too old.

[chica]

Because churches are private institutions, I believe that they have the right to refuse to marry same-sex couples. The government should not intervene.
However, I don't think that an owner of a private bar can tell a coloured person that they won't be served just because of their skin colour, right? :confused:

[drunken goldfish]

However, I don't think that an owner of a private bar can tell a coloured person that they won't be served just because of their skin colour, right? :confused:

I know that's not the same, except I can't figure out why at the moment :) . Will give it some though!

[chica]

I am waiting ;)

[drunken goldfish]

I'm still thinking :) . This is a subject I'm very interested in, i don't want to screw it up ;) .

[Sir Alec]

Is it normal to hear the words same-sex church wedding and be extremely turned on.

I say yes.

[chica]

Sir Alec, that's because you can hear the word "apple" and be extremely turned on :rolleyes:

:p

Fishy, as I said... I'm waiting ;)

[Kuiper]

All I'm gonna say is that churches are made up of individuals. Church leaders are not elected by the whole population, they do not hold referendums of their policies, the people do not own them like they do the government (though the principle of a government being run by the people seems to have been lost on some). Individuals still have liberty to choose what they believe in, what they disapprove of, etc. and I don't think anyone can disagree. Church decisions are made based upon the beliefs and opinions of individuals. Churches are not the government, they have freedom to decide who they want to marry. Churches are allowed to refuse to marry heterosexual couples if they want to, so why should they be forced to marry any and all homosexual couples? And there are churches that do perform same-sex marriages, I think anyway that a homosexual couple would go to a church that they know approves of them and will hold a ceremony for them rather than going to some very conservative one where they won't accept homosexuality and demand to be married. It is lunacy to "force" churches to marry same-sex couples, and very fascist in all honesty.

[chica]

All I'm gonna say is that bars are made up of individuals. Bar owners are not elected by the whole population, they do not hold referendums of their policies, the people do not own them like they do the government (though the principle of a government being run by the people seems to have been lost on some). Individuals still have liberty to choose what they believe in, what they disapprove of, etc. and I don't think anyone can disagree. Bar serving policy is made based upon the beliefs and opinions of individuals. Bars are not the government, they have freedom to decide who they want to serve. Bars are allowed to refuse to serve caucasian guests if they want to, so why should they be forced to serve any and all coloured guests? And there are bars that do serve coloured people, I think anyway that a coloured person would go to a bar that they know approves of them and will serve them rather than going to some very conservative one where they won't accept their race and demand to be served. It is lunacy to "force" bars to serve coloured people, and very fascist in all honesty.

[Kuiper]

Race and sexuality are not equatable. What you had to say was 100% invalid. Race is out of your control, it has no meaning to anything except genetics. It does not (or should not, at least) affect you in any other way or have any bearing on anything else about you. A drink has nothing to do with race, no drink is inherently a white or black or Asian or Arab thing, but marriage is and has been an inherently heterosexual thing. Many churches see marriage that way too, and as private citizens entitled to have their own beliefs, they choose not to marry people in a voluntary ceremony which is always voluntarily performed.

[chica]

Sexual orientation is out of your control, it has no meaning to anything except genetics. It does not (or should not, at least) affect you in any other way or have any bearing on anything else about you.

[chica]

A drink has nothing to do with race, no drink is inherently a white or black or Asian or Arab thing, but filling seats from the front of the bus is and has been an inherently whites' thing. Many bus companies see sitting regulations that way too, and as private citizens entitled to have their own beliefs, they choose not to allow people to take seats in a voluntary ride which is always voluntarily performed.

[Dave]

I think that imposing government regulations on churches, forcing them to marry people, does interfere with Freedom of Religion, and I couldn't see why someone would want to be a part of a church or be married at a church that found them to be undesirable. If a samesex couple wants to be married legally, of course they should have the legal right to do so, but I don't think any church should be forced to marry them. The thing is, I think that you have to recognize other people's rights even if you don't agree with them, and forcing churches to marry because you know you are right, is similar to the opposite position of not allowing samesex marriage because you know it is wrong.

It would be a farce really to be married in a church that you do not respect, and I can't see the point. Religion does change with the times, because they need the people to continue to participate, but they're usually about 50 years behind the times at best. Some are about 5,000 years behind.

Which brings up another point. I've never understood how the unchanging eternal word of God, as interpreted by church leaders, can ever change, really. It seems to give the game away for me.

I do believe in something many would call "god" or "God" but I've never cared for churches, beyond the work many of them do to help people. And they do provide comfort for people, they have their place. But when they start trying to interpret something which I feel is incomprehensible, the nature of reality, I think it's just about the greatest con game ever run. So I can't see why anyone would need the blessings of this institution.

That's just my opinion of course. :D

[chica]

Finally I begin to understand, so that's Freedom of Religion! I really don't know anything about it, so are there churches that don't allow non-white people to join them? And Freedom of Religion gives them right to do that?

[Kuiper]

Finally I begin to understand, so that's Freedom of Religion! I really don't know anything about it, so are there churches that don't allow non-white people to join them? And Freedom of Religion gives them right to do that?

That's kind of difficult to understand. It is racism, which essentially no one has a right to do anymore (and I support that of course), but because a religious organization does it doesn't make them immune to any form of repercussions because of that. Like if a religious cult starts organizing its members as terrorists or something, they still have religious freedom to believe what they believe, but not to murder people. So while a church technically and legally can teach and believe in racial supremacy, and is free to choose its own members, it could face some sort of legal action for discriminating based upon race. I'm just talking about the legality of it here, no ideology of mine is involved and I'm not trying to make any point. :)

Sexual orientation is out of your control, it has no meaning to anything except genetics. It does not (or should not, at least) affect you in any other way or have any bearing on anything else about you.

That is a matter of debate. What is not a matter of debate, however, is that race has virtually no impact on anything outside of genetics (I.E., the odds of getting a disease). That was my point.

A drink has nothing to do with race, no drink is inherently a white or black or Asian or Arab thing, but filling seats from the front of the bus is and has been an inherently whites' thing. Many bus companies see sitting regulations that way too, and as private citizens entitled to have their own beliefs, they choose not to allow people to take seats in a voluntary ride which is always voluntarily performed.

Really, public transportation is a private citizen's thing? You just aren't even trying to make any point, my good friend, chica. You cannot compare public services to private institutions and race to sexuality. It is illogical and is not making your beliefs seem any more reasonable.

It's easy to corrupt what someone is saying by deleting words and inserting others. Anyone can do it:

I am a very big Morrissey fan. He is very talented and has many brilliant songs. He is way better than, say, U2 or The Beatles. I am also a pretty big fan of The Stone Roses and Suede, but my heart will always belong to Moz.

I am a very big follower of Hitler. He is very smart and has many brilliant ideas. He is way smarter than, say, Roosevelt or Churchill. I am also a pretty big follower of Mussolini and Stalin, but my heart will always belong to the Nazi Party.

So did I just prove that every Morrissey fan is a Nazi? :rolleyes:

[Dave]

Chica, you're just acting up now. Don't make me excommunicate you. :D


actually though, that's an interesting question. Have you seen the movie The Apostle? It's not the best movie ever but it does deal with segregated churches, which are pretty common, and you get to see Billy Bob Thornton portray a redneck for a change. ;)

One local Catholic church holds an English language service at 8 am and then at 10 am a Spanish language service. In effect this segregates the church, although I'll bet that some Mexican-Americans attend the English language service.

As far as prejudice goes, some of the worst I've ever heard was from those that are assimilated against those that are not. Nobody is more hardcore against illegal aliens rights than well established "legals". At least that has been my experience.


Back to the church thing, they used to actually have segregated churches, schools, and water fountains in the US, and it wasn't that long ago. I think now that anybody can go to any church, but there's probably still some churches that try to make outsiders feel uncomfortable. I'm pretty sure though that no church would advertise itself openly as whites only, and I hope that those days are behind us. I think the test would come when they tried to make somebody leave their church anyway, because almost every church has a sign saying "everyone welcome", and I think the nature of a church is such that you could expect to attend any church you choose (as long as you behave and don't try to marry your samesex partner :p ) and that when they physically tried to remove you, that it would be illegal, or at least you'd have a good case for civil court.

I was actually thinking about this question while ago when I went out for a walk, and the difference between a bar and a church is that a bar is a business that pays taxes and is heavily regulated, and traditionally a church is not considered a business, does not pay taxes, and as long as it is not doing anything that is otherwise illegal, it is not regulated. Some churches can use drugs that are illegal, and some until very recently were involved in polygamy (and still are) so churches do have special status legally.

And again, I think they are a way to take people's money and control their minds, and when I see church leaders telling people how to vote I wonder if their tax-exempt status should be removed. But churches do serve a function and many of them do provide services for families and the poor as well as providing counseling (although their counseling might not be what you or I might agree with, but it must be as good as psychiatry which is another racket in most cases, don't you think?)

It's good to be for equal rights, but I also think it's important to choose your battles. If it appears that "the church" is under attack from "homosexuals" I don't think that really helps the cause of gay rights, anymore than many of the silly things done by Act Up help, or anymore than some of the silly things done by PETA help. If you're trying to reach people that are opposed to your viewpoints, conservative people, you can't succeed by being too radical or by completely discounting their viewpoints. Even though they completely discount your views. It isn't easy to move forward. These things take time, and all that...

[Kuiper]

Chica, you're just acting up now. Don't make me excommunicate you. :D


actually though, that's an interesting question. Have you seen the movie The Apostle? It's not the best movie ever but it does deal with segregated churches, which are pretty common, and you get to see Billy Bob Thornton portray a redneck for a change. ;)

One local Catholic church holds an English language service at 8 am and then at 10 am a Spanish language service. In effect this segregates the church, although I'll bet that some Mexican-Americans attend the English language service.

As far as prejudice goes, some of the worst I've ever heard was from those that are assimilated against those that are not. Nobody is more hardcore against illegal aliens rights than well established "legals". At least that has been my experience.


Back to the church thing, they used to actually have segregated churches, schools, and water fountains in the US, and it wasn't that long ago. I think now that anybody can go to any church, but there's probably still some churches that try to make outsiders feel uncomfortable. I'm pretty sure though that no church would advertise itself openly as whites only, and I hope that those days are behind us. I think the test would come when they tried to make somebody leave their church anyway, because almost every church has a sign saying "everyone welcome", and I think the nature of a church is such that you could expect to attend any church you choose (as long as you behave and don't try to marry your samesex partner :p ) and that when they physically tried to remove you, that it would be illegal, or at least you'd have a good case for civil court.

I was actually thinking about this question while ago when I went out for a walk, and the difference between a bar and a church is that a bar is a business that pays taxes and is heavily regulated, and traditionally a church is not considered a business, does not pay taxes, and as long as it is not doing anything that is otherwise illegal, it is not regulated. Some churches can use drugs that are illegal, and some until very recently were involved in polygamy (and still are) so churches do have special status legally.

And again, I think they are a way to take people's money and control their minds, and when I see church leaders telling people how to vote I wonder if their tax-exempt status should be removed. But churches do serve a function and many of them do provide services for families and the poor as well as providing counseling (although their counseling might not be what you or I might agree with, but it must be as good as psychiatry which is another racket in most cases, don't you think?)

It's good to be for equal rights, but I also think it's important to choose your battles. If it appears that "the church" is under attack from "homosexuals" I don't think that really helps the cause of gay rights, anymore than many of the silly things done by Act Up help, or anymore than some of the silly things done by PETA help. If you're trying to reach people that are opposed to your viewpoints, conservative people, you can't succeed by being too radical or by completely discounting their viewpoints. Even though they completely discount your views. It isn't easy to move forward. These things take time, and all that...

First off, most churches I've been too have been "segregated", by the standards of language. I'm surprised how many Korean churchgoers there are all over the Chicagoland area, but anyway, within every church that I've had a prolonged stay at there is a strong sense of fellowship with no discrimination. That's not saying that every Christian is perfect, but despite the militantly anti-Christian propaganda that is present in every form in every area of life, Christians are nice to one another and other people. I've yet to meet a single Christian, that actually seemed like one with an actual devotion to the faith, that acted at all racist, sexist, or discriminatory in any way.

As for legal immigrants versus illegal immigrants, I've had the exact same experience, and observation from people I've only seen or heard of but not met. One reason is that, particular Hispanics, feel that the illegals are making them "look bad", like when a Hispanic with an accent is walking down the strett, people assume he or she did not legally enter the country. Another reason is that by choosing your new country, and going to the lengths of going through a whole process to become a citizen, you must be very loyal. Immigrants, law-abiding and law-respecting ones, have made America strong and they are very heroic. It seems pretty convenient that pro-illegal immigrant types ommit the words "legal" and "illegal" so that pro-law people seem like they are anti-immigration.

But back on topic (which is actually somewhat off-topic! ;))...
The Bible clearly says that within "the Church" (as in the community of believers, not any particular manmade organization), there is no Greek, no Jew, no Scythian, no Arab, etc. Besides the explicitly anti-racist statements, it is pure logic by the story of the origin of man that we are all descended from Adam and again from Noah, and it says again that God has made all the nations out of one blood. So a "Christian" church being racist is both illogical and very unbiblical.

[Dave]

"So a "Christian" church being racist is both illogical and very unbiblical."

I think we agree on that, to a point (Google racism in the bible and you'll find that slavery was acceptable, homosexuality was not, also we're talking about a modern interpretation of the New Testament) and maybe I wasn't clear or tried to talk about too many things. Anyway, it's a complicated subject, obviously and I think no matter how liberal or conservative you are, you aren't necessarilly going to agree with others in your political category.

I think I'm a libertarian, and I think it is consistent with that that philosophy to say, let same sex couples get married, but don't make the church perform the service. That way everyone gets to do their thing.

If people are backward, in your opinion (or in fact) you can't force them to your progressive viewpoints. If you look at the Christian Church and the Bible and what it says about homosexuals in the Old Testament, I can't imagine why any gay person would want to claim this organization as their own, and I can't see the point of a church wedding (for anyone, but especially) for a samesex couple. What is the point?


I'm in over my head here. I'm not a biblical scholar. I just know that concept of a community church has much to recommend it, in my opinion, regardless of the fact that I don't wish to attend. I also believe in equal rights. The problem is that sometimes one person's rights intrude on another persons rights. So I'll say, stay out of the church, start your own church, or find one that is tolerant of your beliefs. Don't attack the conservative church because it is pointless to try to force them to a more modern viewpoint, and in doing so you will alienate the public that are neither church going Christians, nor gay rights activists. In other words, almost everyone.

[realitybites]

Should the government have the right to force church into accepting same-sex church wedding?

I know that ideally church and state should be separate, but don't you think that church has too much social responsibility to be allowed to continue with discrimination?

It's not like leaving the choice to the individual not to socialize with homosexuals or people with different skin colour. Church has much greater impact on society.

I'm more concerned for the same sex couple having to be married in a church. The rabbis in Israel control all the marriage laws. So a non-Jew cannot marry a Jew there. Religion should keep its filthy paws out of secular matters if it wants to be likewise exempt from accepting the larger societies mores. So no, a church should not HAVE to perform a same sex marriage. And I likewise, should not HAVE to respect any religious beliefs outside of a church.

[chica]

Really, public transportation is a private citizen's thing? You just aren't even trying to make any point, my good friend, chica. You cannot compare public services to private institutions and race to sexuality. It is illogical and is not making your beliefs seem any more reasonable.
I thought you might be bored if I use the bar example again, but imagine I did. That should be private enough I hope! And I still don't understand why racial discrimination can't be compared to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
So did I just prove that every Morrissey fan is a Nazi? :rolleyes:
No you didn't, my good friend, Kuiper. ;) Because of the lack of obvious similarity between Morrissey and Hitler, which I believe exists between two minorities discriminated against through history.

I was actually thinking about this question while ago when I went out for a walk, and the difference between a bar and a church is that a bar is a business that pays taxes and is heavily regulated, and traditionally a church is not considered a business, does not pay taxes, and as long as it is not doing anything that is otherwise illegal, it is not regulated. Some churches can use drugs that are illegal, and some until very recently were involved in polygamy (and still are) so churches do have special status legally.
I wonder why discrimination isn't illegal. I'm completely honest, I thought it was! But if it was, it would be regulated, right?

So I'll say, stay out of the church, start your own church, or find one that is tolerant of your beliefs. Don't attack the conservative church because it is pointless to try to force them to a more modern viewpoint, and in doing so you will alienate the public that are neither church going Christians, nor gay rights activists. In other words, almost everyone.
If I may use another analogy - imagine a woman was told 100 years ago: Why do you want to become a doctor anyway? You know that everyone will always look down on you because you're a woman. There are so many other professions you could chose, or even invent another one!

That is simply not the way to stop discrimination.
So no, a church should not HAVE to perform a same sex marriage. And I likewise, should not HAVE to respect any religious beliefs outside of a church.
Personally I'd like to ban them all, but that would be highly undemocratic I'm afraid.

I have to accept that many people have strong religious beliefs and are devoted to their respective churches. They are sometimes homosexual. Unlike heterosexual believers, they aren't guaranteed the right to marry their partner in church.

[Dave]

Don't they show Dr Quinn Medicine Woman (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Alq9ezFRmLk) in your country, Chica?

http://www.telesimo.it/LaSignoradelWest/drquinn.jpg

[drunken goldfish]

I still feel the same way I stated in the beginning of the thread, i.e. that it's silly to force a church to do anything, although I don't have a convincing answer why it's different than racial discrimination. I haven't given up though! :)
I'm more concerned for the same sex couple having to be married in a church. The rabbis in Israel control all the marriage laws. So a non-Jew cannot marry a Jew there. Religion should keep its filthy paws out of secular matters if it wants to be likewise exempt from accepting the larger societies mores. So no, a church should not HAVE to perform a same sex marriage. And I likewise, should not HAVE to respect any religious beliefs outside of a church.
Re: Israel, don't get me started on our marriage laws. I'm curious, how do you know about it, did you ever encouter such a problem? To our credit though, Israel is very advanced when it comes to gay rights, including marriage-like agreements.
Regarding the other part of your post: like chica said, some gay people do consider themselves religious and it's a shame they can't get married in the way they believe that they should.

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

marriage makes a mockery of love
'the gheys' as me ma would say
they got it better
also
not as many problems with your spouse stealing everything from you!
:eek:

[chica]

I haven't given up though!
I am waiting! :)
Don't they show Dr Quinn Medicine Woman (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Alq9ezFRmLk) in your country, Chica?
Yes they do, that's where I saw what hardships she had to endure just because of being a woman doctor! :p (Actually a doctor and a woman ;))

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

Dr Quinn Medicine Woman
very very very purdy oldIsh lady
and once
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/gulrober/sexy/truth/JaneSeymour1.jpg
an h-bomb!
:)

[realitybites]

I still feel the same way I stated in the beginning of the thread, i.e. that it's silly to force a church to do anything, although I don't have a convincing answer why it's different than racial discrimination. I haven't given up though! :)

Re: Israel, don't get me started on our marriage laws. I'm curious, how do you know about it, did you ever encouter such a problem? To our credit though, Israel is very advanced when it comes to gay rights, including marriage-like agreements.
Regarding the other part of your post: like chica said, some gay people do consider themselves religious and it's a shame they can't get married in the way they believe that they should.

Hi. I do have experience with the Israeli marriage laws, as I married an Israeli in 1991. We wanted to get married in Israel but were not allowed. So we had to spend a fair amount of money to travel to Cyprus. We were married by the mayor of Nicosia. Sadly no family or friends were in attendance. However, I am glad to hear that gay unions are honored there.

PS--We are no longer married.

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

Hi. I do have experience with the Israeli marriage laws, as I married an Israeli in 1991. We wanted to get married in Israel but were not allowed. So we had to spend a fair amount of money to travel to Cyprus. We were married by the mayor of Nicosia. Sadly no family or friends were in attendance. However, I am glad to hear that gay unions are honored there.

PS--We are no longer married.

cyprus weddings, prob. 2nd in shortest life expectancy
after
Las Vegas*
:eek:

*=i had a vow renewal there
#2or3 mistake of my life

[realitybites]

cyprus weddings, prob. 2nd in shortest life expectancy
after
Las Vegas*
:eek:



*=i had a vow renewal there
#2or3 mistake of my life

:D I hear ya!

[chica]

Bump?

http://jesusandmo.net/strips/2007-01-25.jpg

[annabel lee]

why would anyone want to get married in a chruch where everyone disapproved of what they were doing?? i'm a christian, but not associated with any denomination and i totally support gay marriage, but it is completely fascist to force any religion to confirm to your personal beliefs.

there are lots of very conservative churches in several religions that treat women like some kind of inferior species and claim that God justifies it, but the women keep attending because that's what they believe too, and personally i think it's revolting but i don't have any more right to change them than they do to change me.

i used to attend a lutheran chruch where homosexuals were totally embraced and not considered immoral or unnatural; it all depends on how people chose to interpret the few biblical passages that address it, considering the cultural context and translation, like for instance i think i read somewhere that in the original greek there was no word for a homosexual relationship, so probably what the bible was referring to was prostitution, which is a different issue entirely.
i don't think the church has as much influence on people as you think, chica. if people are going to be bigoted and narrow minded they will find some justification for it, whether it's religion or patriotism or whatever.