You Forgave Jesus Please Forgive Us!!!

[northerngirl]

I keep checking this site as often as I can in hopes that perhaps Mr. Morrissey will be touring Canada (northern states would work as well). I know our nation insulted and disgusted him earlier this year but your fans are still here waiting and hoping. Please don't say that I'm the only one.

I'm whincing and mincing in hopes that someone has heard of a possible tour in my neck of the woods. The winter is closing in soon and serenade from our songbird may just sustain me through our cold harsh winter. Please let me know what any of you may have heard.

As always in appreciation.
northerngirl :rolleyes:

[Mozzergirl]

You're mincing? I don't think your demands will be taken serious until you're sashaying.

"sashaying" what a delightful word.

Sorry, no news that I've heard of a tour either way. And trust me, I'd be all over that kind of news :(

[Puddle]

I keep checking this site as often as I can in hopes that perhaps Mr. Morrissey will be touring Canada (northern states would work as well). I know our nation insulted and disgusted him earlier this year but your fans are still here waiting and hoping. Please don't say that I'm the only one.

I'm whincing and mincing in hopes that someone has heard of a possible tour in my neck of the woods. The winter is closing in soon and serenade from our songbird may just sustain me through our cold harsh winter. Please let me know what any of you may have heard.

As always in appreciation.
northerngirl :rolleyes:



oh show some dignity please.

[Fruits N Nuts]

I keep checking this site as often as I can in hopes that perhaps Mr. Morrissey will be touring Canada (northern states would work as well). I know our nation insulted and disgusted him earlier this year but your fans are still here waiting and hoping. Please don't say that I'm the only one.

I'm whincing and mincing in hopes that someone has heard of a possible tour in my neck of the woods. The winter is closing in soon and serenade from our songbird may just sustain me through our cold harsh winter. Please let me know what any of you may have heard.

As always in appreciation.
northerngirl :rolleyes:



What exactly are you mincing? Seal meat?

[CharethCutestory]

I keep checking this site as often as I can in hopes that perhaps Mr. Morrissey will be touring Canada (northern states would work as well). I know our nation insulted and disgusted him earlier this year but your fans are still here waiting and hoping. Please don't say that I'm the only one.

I'm whincing and mincing in hopes that someone has heard of a possible tour in my neck of the woods. The winter is closing in soon and serenade from our songbird may just sustain me through our cold harsh winter. Please let me know what any of you may have heard.

As always in appreciation.
northerngirl :rolleyes:

Your nation didn't insult Morrissey, it may have disgusted him, but that was with a process that he clealy doesn't understand.

You have nothing to apologise for, he should open his eyes to the fact that he's talking rubbish about something he kjnows nothing about (I'm not saying I do, I'm saying he doesn't, Okay? M'kay!).

His live shows have been awful lately anyway. You didn't miss much.

[Sir Alec]

Morrissey shouldn't punish his canadian fans for something they have no involvment in. I think a lot of people now have the false notion that all canadians are going out and killing seals and making pelts out of them. I really think Morrissey should just tour and protest at the same time. It seems less stuck up to me.

I don't think he will change his mind so arguing about it is irrelevant.

[DAnn Coulter]

oh show some dignity please.

A bit harsh, but a agree......Canadian fans shouldn't have to loose their dignity begging him to go to their country. He's the one who's wrong for punishing people for what their government does/allows, I'm affraid he might be doing the same here to America. By this reasoning he'd have to never tour any part of the world again, there isn't a single goverment in the planet that is free of Evil....starting with his own. Oh well, seems like he's cool with the Mexican government[eventhough they allow whale hunting and exessive deforestation of areas filled with indangered species] so Candians should travel to Guadalajara or Mexico D.F. if they wanna see him.

[CharethCutestory]

He knows plenty about it. He is nearing fifty years old and has a more than thorough knowledge of animal rights issues. Please credit him with the intelligence he was clearly born with, or else just go away and stop trying to annoy people.

Just because he's nearing fifty doesn't automatically make him a knowledgable guy on all subjects. His views are incredibly niaive and don't take into account the fact that if the seal cull didn't go ahead the seal population would grow to the stage where there wasn't enough food for many of the packs to survive which would lead to a far higher mortality rate in the seal community. He also failed to mention that the population growth would have an adverse effect on the eco-chain of their natural habitat (which again would lead to a higher rate of seal deaths. He left out the part about how it would cause a large part of the Canadian economy to collapse as well, which would mean that people didn't have the money to attend his shows anyway. In short, he was acting like a misguided child.

If he's so bother why doesn't he boycott any country with a leather industry? What's the difference? Is it perhaps because this particular cause afforded him a huge amount of free publicity (what with it being backed by the McCartney's and everything).

People should stop agreeing with everything single thing that comes out of Morrissey's mouth just because he used to write exceptionally good songs (he doesn't anymore, but that's another thread in itself).

Everybody here bangs on about "being an individual" but as far as I can see they spend a lot of time trying to be just like Morrissey. Odd, no?

[Psychedelia]

This post is one of the most idiotic small minded things i have reaad in a long time. It does indeed seem like you are following this view because of Morrissey, he makes great music but his views are often regrettable.
Furthermore you say Chareth is spurting shite yet at least he wrote some real arguments that make sense both from a human and animal rights perspective; while you just laid out insults and emotive rubbish. "ooo lets not kill the cute innocent seals". Also are you seriously saying you value the life of seals above humans. If so this is quite disgusting.
That ends my rant

[northerngirl]

I love all the animated conversation that came out of my quick little posting (touring in Canada/northern states).

Thank you to those who understand our (Canadian fans) conundrum when it comes to touring Canada. Whatever your opinion on how Morrissey handled his disgust with our seal issue still leaves his Canadian fans punished. Again, it was great to hear from all of you on this forum but (the big but) does anyone have any inkling whether he may tour the northern states or Canada in the near future?

Please help - we actually had some snow flurries today and a little pick me up of some good news would be great.

Thanks again to all.
northerngirl :rolleyes:

[Danny]

Why do people ignore the fact that this is not "Morrissey's campaign"? He didn't start it. He's just showing solidarity with it because he belongs to the organisation that is promoting it.

That's how political direct action works. Organisation and solidarity. You can't support a cause and just pick and choose which campaigns you will support. If Morrissey had said "sod the seals, I want to play Canada so I'm going to ignore what Peta say" you'd have all called him a hypocrite.

And to those who say he should go to Canada and talk about it onstage instead, he did during the last Canadian tour and it got no publicity whatsoever. One person can't do it on their own. You need a major campaign.

I'm not really bothered about Morrissey's animal rights obsession at all. I find his attitude towards animals a bit sentimental. But I understand how political campaigning works and I respect anyone prepared to give something up because of a cause they believe in.

[Sir Alec]

Okay guys you need to stop this silly arguing. It is ruining the forum and I'm sick of reading your self-righteous bullshit.

[Psychedelia]

But, as was outlined by Chareth these policies aren't so black and white as you seem to think, hence the small minded remark. Also the whole innocence thing is frankly ridiculous as humans are the only animal intelligent enough to have the capacity of understanding of good and bad thus how can our views of morality be transferred to a different species?
What would you do in this situation? let the Canadian economy be ruined, allow the seal population run rampant and then begin to destroy its own ecosystem which would have a far more severe effect in the long run?
You are clearly vehemntly against this so what can be done?

[CharethCutestory]

Hi JoRo,

How's the day treating you? Still a bit angry about things? Sorry, i've just been having my tea and watching a nice bit of telly.

Now where were we?

Yes, you were pulling that old "animals are innocent, men (yes men, not women of course) are bastards" chestnut out of your arse again.

Why, oh why is everything so black and white for you.

Good Vs Evil
Right Vs Wrong
Pussycat dolls annd FHM Vs Morrissey
Seals Vs Humans
You Vs the rest of humanity

Just calm down, read some books, re-evaluate some of your opinions, be prepared to accept that, just like the rest of us, you some times don't know what the fnck you're talking about and end up making a complete nob of yourself on an internet forum. Have a cup of tea and get over it.

The world is what you make it, stop being so p!ssy and start trying to have a laugh. You don't sound to happy.

Incidently why are the Pussycat Dolls and FHM your only cultural reference points for anything you don't like, what have they ever done to you?

[CharethCutestory]

I love all the animated conversation that came out of my quick little posting (touring in Canada/northern states).

Thank you to those who understand our (Canadian fans) conundrum when it comes to touring Canada. Whatever your opinion on how Morrissey handled his disgust with our seal issue still leaves his Canadian fans punished. Again, it was great to hear from all of you on this forum but (the big but) does anyone have any inkling whether he may tour the northern states or Canada in the near future?

Please help - we actually had some snow flurries today and a little pick me up of some good news would be great.

Thanks again to all.
northerngirl :rolleyes:


Sorry,

In all the excitement I forgot to reply to you.

I doubt very much that you'll be seeing Gloomy Stephen there any time soon. He tends not to go back on any of the fnckwitted things he says.

Personally I hope to visit Canada at some point, it looks beautiful and the people there seem lovely. That's probably not much of a consolation to you though.

Strange how he thinks it's ok to still go to America despite all the thiungs he's said about the President. It's almost as if he boycotted the country that was least likely to cost him money.

At least he can still stand up against those capitalist bastards tho..... oh.

[CharethCutestory]

Read some books? My, you really think you're something, don't you? Pretty rich, coming from the most dopey sounding fuckwit on the forum.

YOU are the only knob around here, and if I sound unhappy, it's because of silly boys like yourself telling me to go and read some books. I'm a published journalist - get over it!

And to answer another question, everything's so black and white for me because I do not take a middle ground. It's dull and tedious, much like when someone repeats the hackneyed view that 'humans have more rights than animals'. Says whom? Humans? Ah, well that makes it correct then! We humans are infallible, don't you know?

Lastly, I don't need to re-evaluate my opinions - you do. You're the one going with the majority, as usual.

Don't let silly boys like me upset you, there's no point. Plus, if you're a published journalist then that's something you can be really proud of. Which publication is it that you've written for. I'd genuinely love to read some of your work - I have a thirst for knowledge.

I think that in life it's important to realise that there are some issues that you can't break down into yes or no, right and wrong. That's what sentient thought and free will are all about. Let me give you an example - If you are stood on a railway line and the devil (it's hypothetical, I suspect he doesn't really exist) says to you, push that guy infront of the train, or I'll push these three guys in front of the train, nobody will ever find out that you did it, would it be right to do it? On the one hand, you'd be killing someone, but on the other you'd be saving three lives. I know that it's not likely to come up, but you have to admit the arguement applies a moral dilema to black and white thinking.

Couple of grammatical points for you again as well I'm afraid Jo - "silly boys like yourself" - Doesn't really make any sense, it should say "silly boys, like YOU" not "YOURSELF". It goes back to whatI was telling you about writing with a Wildean motiff, if you don't do it right you can come across as a bit of a numpty. Also, you might want to watch the "whom" business, if you put one in the right place it just sounds dumb.

Finally you said "I don't need to re-evaluate my opinions - you do. You're the one going with the majority, as usual" - Now that's just plain silly, what you're saying there is that the majority is ALWAYS WRONG and the minority is ALWAYS RIGHT. Surely you can see that that isn't the case, just think about racism, oppression the majority aren't wrong about those things being abhorrent. Peace, Love, The Pussycat dolls the majority aren't wrong about those things being great.

I hope you're keeping well. In truth you've seemed a little irritable lately, I didn't want to say anything, but I think we've built up a strong bond to be honest with each other.

[Server NTLI]

Don't let silly boys like me upset you, there's no point. Plus, if you're a published journalist then that's something you can be really proud of. Which publication is it that you've written for. I'd genuinely love to read some of your work - I have a thirst for knowledge.

I think that in life it's important to realise that there are some issues that you can't break down into yes or no, right and wrong. That's what sentient thought and free will are all about. Let me give you an example - If you are stood on a railway line and the devil (it's hypothetical, I suspect he doesn't really exist) says to you, push that guy infront of the train, or I'll push these three guys in front of the train, nobody will ever find out that you did it, would it be right to do it? On the one hand, you'd be killing someone, but on the other you'd be saving three lives. I know that it's not likely to come up, but you have to admit the arguement applies a moral dilema to black and white thinking.

Couple of grammatical points for you again as well I'm afraid Jo - "silly boys like yourself" - Doesn't really make any sense, it should say "silly boys, like YOU" not "YOURSELF". It goes back to whatI was telling you about writing with a Wildean motiff, if you don't do it right you can come across as a bit of a numpty. Also, you might want to watch the "whom" business, if you put one in the right place it just sounds dumb.

Finally you said "I don't need to re-evaluate my opinions - you do. You're the one going with the majority, as usual" - Now that's just plain silly, what you're saying there is that the majority is ALWAYS WRONG and the minority is ALWAYS RIGHT. Surely you can see that that isn't the case, just think about racism, oppression the majority aren't wrong about those things being abhorrent. Peace, Love, The Pussycat dolls the majority aren't wrong about those things being great.

I hope you're keeping well. In truth you've seemed a little irritable lately, I didn't want to say anything, but I think we've built up a strong bond to be honest with each other.


One word answers are funnier.

[CharethCutestory]

One word answers are funnier.

Prick.

[CharethCutestory]

Prick.


Oh yeah. You're right.

[Christine]

How many fans does moz really have in canada? The whole thing was really propaganda for new album, as if Canadain government would change a policy due to a singers threats they've never heard of. the whole business is extremely unfair to whatever fans he does have, it's just stubborniss and self propganda

[lnathan]

Joroberts expresses herself very aggressively, but the fact is, she is actually right. There is no good reason why we should value human lives more than animals' lives. The argumant that the population would expand and the deaths would be greater fails because we would never ever use that argumant to justify killing people. An animal feels pain. An animal have interests of it's own. Give me one good reason why the life of a human being is worth more than the life of an animal. There isn't one. If you say that killing is wrong, then that must apply to every living being, not just humans. Anything else is pure speciesm.

I am not familiar with the exact details of the campaign and who started it, but there is no doubt that strong messages has to be sent on this matter. Too bad that some fans missed out on seeing Morrissey, but frankly I think the baby seals are suffering more. He is not doing it to punish fans, but to send an important message.

Joroberts, I wish you wouldn't express yourself in such an aggressive manner, but I do understand and you have my full support.

[Server NTLI]

Prick.

Better

[Disappointed]

I applaud both joroberts and lnathan!

While I appreciate that Morrissey's Canadian fans are disappointed that he is unlikely to tour their country in the foreseeable future, and I sympathize with them, I also believe that what Morrissey is doing is right. You need to put your money where your mouth is, as they say. Becoming a vegan or a vegetarian is one way to do that. Refusing to buy fur is another way. Riding a bicycle to work instead of driving a car, still another way. In the grand scheme of things, these may be small gestures, but they do make a difference.

As another poster pointed out, it would be impossible to boycott every country which gives monetary support to ranchers, people who do medical experimentation on animals, etc., etc. It would be impossible to boycott every concert venue which sells hot dogs at its concession stands. Sometimes, the best that you can do is to pick your battles.

[Don'tRakeUpMyMistakes]

All of these replies are too long. He does not agree with a policy of your government because of the organisations he chooses to support. That's all. I personally want to move to Canada when I "grow up". As much as I detest the practice of seal culling I still think that Canada offers a better quality of life. Everybody is due thier opinion, this just happens to be his and I admire him for standing by it as he is in a position to cause a comotion, whereas I am not.

[Don'tRakeUpMyMistakes]

Of course by thier I meant their.

[Sir Alec]

I have a question for some of you people:

If you had to choose between saving a perfectly sane, normal, caring, hard-working person and a cute little seal, which one would it be?

I'd save the person, but only because they are perfectly sane, normal, caring, and hard-working. If they were a rapist, a murderer, or something along those lines I'd reconsider and go for the seal.

But even with that said, what says the person who means nothing to society now will not do good for it later and redeem his or her self?

[DAnn Coulter]

I have a question for some of you people:

If you had to choose between saving a perfectly sane, normal, caring, hard-working person and a cute little seal, which one would it be?


Baby seals are way too cute! ...it'd be a very hard decision for me...NOT!

I guess it'd all depend on who the person is and what kind of animal it is as well. In my opinion about 80% of humanity needs to be exterminated anyway, but that's another story.....

If it's between a cute cuddly animal and a fat ugly person no matter how nice and normal, you better believe I'm choosing the animal's life! However, if it's between a lizard/amphibian/insect and a hot 30y/o guy I'd defently choose the guy.....or girl, as long as they're hot and not fat.....LOL
Also I'd choose the life of ANY animal over a stupid human being no matter the looks or moral status.
Now, the hard decision would be made if the choice is for example between a cute baby panda and a hot young guy who's also smart....:confused:

What I'm trying to say is that I'd probably choose on a case-by-case basis.....The only certainty with me is that fat ugly people and half-retarded rednecks have no chance of survival ......even against a maggot. :D

[lnathan]

I have a question for some of you people:

If you had to choose between saving a perfectly sane, normal, caring, hard-working person and a cute little seal, which one would it be?

I'd save the person, but only because they are perfectly sane, normal, caring, and hard-working. If they were a rapist, a murderer, or something along those lines I'd reconsider and go for the seal.

But even with that said, what says the person who means nothing to society now will not do good for it later and redeem his or her self?

It is a very hypothetic scenario, and in any scenario there is an endless number of circumstances to be taken into consideration. The answer to it will not say anything about what is generally right and wrong. And what we are talking about here is people killing innocent animals, not saving them.

The main question is: what is it that makes the life of a human being worth more than the life of an animal.The person might be sane, honest and hard working but so are the seal.
You'd save the seal only if the person was a rapist or a murderer. So you do believe killing is wrong. I ask again, why is it - under any circumstances - OK to kill an animal?

[Sir Alec]

keep in mind human beings are animals.

[lnathan]

keep in mind human beings are animals.

Of course. When I say animal I mean a non-human animal.

[CharethCutestory]

1 good reason why a human is more deserving than an animal..... a badger couldn't drive my car.

[CharethCutestory]

Well, I can pick at your grammar too. You said: "Also, you might want to watch the "whom" business, if you put one in the right place it just sounds dumb."

Shouldn't that be in the wrong place?

Hi Jo,

How are you love? Hope you've had a nice day, mine's been a bit of a stinker, but at least I've got the weekend to look forward to.

You are absolutely 100% correct about me popping the wrong word in there, I'm a bang to rights moron. However, the subtle difference is, mine was a typo. I unitentionally put that word there. You deliberately try to type in the style of Oscar Wilde or Charles Dickens but sometimes get a bit mixed up and don't do it correctly, which can make you look a bit silly.

Anyway, you never told me where it was that you had been published? Is it a newspaper or magazine? As I said, I'd love to read it. As I like to gather as broad a spectrum of source material as possible so that I can form opinions on subjects.

Hope you're well and that you'll reply back soon.

[lnathan]

1 good reason why a human is more deserving than an animal..... a badger couldn't drive my car.

Neither can an infant nor for example a person who's missing an arm.

[CharethCutestory]

Neither can an infant nor for example a person who's missing an arm.

That's why we should cull infants and people who have one arm.

[Busy Clippers]

In Canada when someone asks you to go clubbing, how do you know what they mean?

[chica]

Busy Clippers, you crack me up!!!

[CharethCutestory]

In Canada when someone asks you to go clubbing, how do you know what they mean?

ooooooooh. Now I found that laugh out loud funny, but I think you're going to wake up tomorrow to a few unpleasant replies...... I had a death threat earlier on (well, I'm exaggerating, it was more of a death request). In view of this, good work, keep it up and have a good weekend buddy.

[the more you explore me!]

In Canada when someone asks you to go clubbing, how do you know what they mean?
i bet they still go to discos and the DJ talks inbetween the songs!

[mozmal]

Chareth
You've had a lot to say about why you don't like Morrissey anymore - how about telling us what you did like about him and his music. Also, why spend so much time on a site that is intended for people who love his music? I genuinely would like to know. Cheers. :confused:

[DAnn Coulter]

In Canada when someone asks you to go clubbing, how do you know what they mean?

LOL
You truely are a sick son of a B like I said a few days ago. ;)

[CharethCutestory]

Chareth
You've had a lot to say about why you don't like Morrissey anymore - how about telling us what you did like about him and his music. Also, why spend so much time on a site that is intended for people who love his music? I genuinely would like to know. Cheers. :confused:


Well, I loved The Smiths, but don't believe that Norrisey was the sole genius involed. Andy Rourke and Mike Joyce were superb and inventive and John was argueably the greatest musician of his generation.

I think the big thing is that Morrissey has stopped writing songs that invoke empathy and started writing songs that he hopes will invoke smpathy. This would be ok were the songs any good, but more often than not nowadays they're just bad, well actually no, bad would be ok, they're just so middle of the road and average. He's turning into a male version of Dido.

Why do I spend time here? Well, I think I've already covered this before but the main readon is that everytime I try to stop somebody drops in a post written in a pseudo-Dickensian style, which uses words like "whom" in the worng context, makes them look ridiculous and well..... I just can't help but poke fun at that kind of ass hole.

[lnathan]

That's why we should cull infants and people who have one arm.

I see. Well, then it all makes sense.

Seriousely, as far as I know no one has ever been able to defeat this argument:
If you say that it is the intelligens that separates us from other animals and that that is what makes human life more important than non-human life, then that must mean that infants, mentally disabled people, people who are in a coma etc. are also worth less than normally intelligent people. In fact no matter what kind of charactaristics you try to point out as being specifically human, you will always be able to find human beings who do not have those characataristics or non-human animals who do have those charactaristics. So no matter how you try to defend it you are saying that human life is worth more simply because of their genetics; because they are human beings and that is pure discrimination just like racism and sexism. It is speciesm.

Therefore, what ever ethical standpoint you may have, that must apply not unly to human beings, but to all living beings.

[DAnn Coulter]

Well, I loved The Smiths, but don't believe that Norrisey was the sole genius involed. Andy Rourke and Mike Joyce were superb and inventive and John was argueably the greatest musician of his generation.

I think the big thing is that Morrissey has stopped writing songs that invoke empathy and started writing songs that he hopes will invoke smpathy. This would be ok were the songs any good, but more often than not nowadays they're just bad, well actually no, bad would be ok, they're just so middle of the road and average. He's turning into a male version of Dido.

Why do I spend time here? Well, I think I've already covered this before but the main readon is that everytime I try to stop somebody drops in a post written in a pseudo-Dickensian style, which uses words like "whom" in the worng context, makes them look ridiculous and well..... I just can't help but poke fun at that kind of ass hole.

Should Be:

Arguably
Sympathy
Reason
Dickensonian
Wrong

Suddenly putting the word "whom' in the wrong context inside a sentence doesn't seem so ridiculous....... does it?

C'mon, put a "glove puppet" in it!! ;)

[Sir Alec]

Well, I loved The Smiths, but don't believe that Norrisey was the sole genius involed. Andy Rourke and Mike Joyce were superb and inventive and John was argueably the greatest musician of his generation.

Okay, lets go over this again...

Andy Rourke is a very good bassist, but he did not write all the bass for The Smiths. Marr did.

Mike Joyce is an okay drummer. Nothing special. He had his moments. He had is weaknesses. The record company wanted him replaced with someone spectacular. Moz prefered his company and had him stay.

Norrissey is the bastard child of Chuck Norris and Morrissey.

[drunken goldfish]

^^Chuck Norris can eat a Rubik's cube and poop it out solved. Just sayin'.

[Sir Alec]

^^Chuck Norris can eat a Rubik's cube and poop it out solved. Just sayin'.

Chuck Norris's tears cure cancer, too bad he never cries.

[CharethCutestory]

I think the key to "Why humans have more rights" can be summed up in one sentence - Top of the food chain baby!

By your logic, all species are the same and should be treated equally, shouldn't you be off having a go at some lions for eating gazelle?

Also, in reference to the seal culls, I've heard that the seals actually quite enjoy it.

[Server NTLI]

Who's Dido?

I think it was another typo. He missed out the "L". I imagine it is something you are extremely familiar with.

[lnathan]

I think the key to "Why humans have more rights" can be summed up in one sentence - Top of the food chain baby!

By your logic, all species are the same and should be treated equally, shouldn't you be off having a go at some lions for eating gazelle?

Also, in reference to the seal culls, I've heard that the seals actually quite enjoy it.

Yes all species should have the same rights. Humans can survive very well without eating animals. I am not sure if that is the case with lions. Further more we don't know if lions are able to make ethical descisions, and therefore we can't really say anything about what they should or should not do. But no matter what, an ethical judgement must be based on it's own terms. Argumants like "they do it too" doesn't really add anything maningful to an ethical discussion.

Your "top of the food chain" comment implies that you are a relativist. By that logic the strongest are always right, which means the western world are worth more than the African people simply because we are stronger and richer.
And no, we are actually not top of the food chain. As I said before we can survive very well without eating animals, and as a matter of fact it would be far better for the global eco system if we didn't.

[CharethCutestory]

Yes all species should have the same rights. Humans can survive very well without eating animals. I am not sure if that is the case with lions. Further more we don't know if lions are able to make ethical descisions, and therefore we can't really say anything about what they should or should not do. But no matter what, an ethical judgement must be based on it's own terms. Argumants like "they do it too" doesn't really add anything maningful to an ethical discussion.

Your "top of the food chain" comment implies that you are a relativist. By that logic the strongest are always right, which means the western world are worth more than the African people simply because we are stronger and richer.
And no, we are actually not top of the food chain. As I said before we can survive very well without eating animals, and as a matter of fact it would be far better for the global eco system if we didn't.

1. It's the point that you raise about animals being unable to make ethical decisions decisions that is the crux of my arguement (along with the car driving skills), and yes, I know you're going to say "Babys and the infirm can't make ethical decisions" but baby's one day can and the ethical decision that a lot of humans make is not to cull the infirm.

2. Food chains and global economies are two totally seperate concepts.

3. Whilst humans can survive without meat, they can become pasty and weak without certain artificial substitues for meat. If it were left to natural evolution a lack of meat in the diet would lead to serious illness.

4. I don't want to directly insult anybody and I'm not calling you a liar, you may have been mis-informed, but your comment about it being better for the global-eco system if humans didn't eat animals is quite frankly, complete bollocks.

[drunken goldfish]

Would you two just do it already? :p

[CharethCutestory]

Would you two just do it already? :p

Well, Jo?

[CharethCutestory]

Hey, I'm so glad you've thought out a reasoned, rational and cohesive argument. This could go Question Time, you debating heavyweight! Wow! What a great way to get your point across - tell the person they're talking bollocks! By CHRIST I wish I had your debating skills, fine sir!

Ooooooookay! I see why you're being a bit sarcastic. I think my point is though, that the statement, as I understood it, was..... complete bollocks.

If anyone can sensibly defend a claim that the global eco system would benifit from humans not eating meat then I am more than willing to retract that statement.

[lnathan]

1. It's the point that you raise about animals being unable to make ethical decisions decisions that is the crux of my arguement (along with the car driving skills), and yes, I know you're going to say "Babys and the infirm can't make ethical decisions" but baby's one day can and the ethical decision that a lot of humans make is not to cull the infirm.

2. Food chains and global economies are two totally seperate concepts.

3. Whilst humans can survive without meat, they can become pasty and weak without certain artificial substitues for meat. If it were left to natural evolution a lack of meat in the diet would lead to serious illness.

4. I don't want to directly insult anybody and I'm not calling you a liar, you may have been mis-informed, but your comment about it being better for the global-eco system if humans didn't eat animals is quite frankly, complete bollocks.

1. I did not say that animals can't make ethical decisions, but that we don't know if they can. There is a big difference, but lets not get into the discussion about what we can know because that will be avery long one. The point is that we can make ethical desicions, and therefore we should. The basis of our disagreement is that you are still speaking in terms of species and I am speaking in terms of life in general. Even though many members of the human species can't make ethical decisions you still think they should have the same right simply because they are members of this species. The way I think is very logical, there is nothing intuitive or emotional about it. I just simply can't see - logically - what is is that separates us from other animals that gives us more of a right to live.
We share 99.4% (or so) of our genes with a chimp. Therefore we use them for testing because they are so similar to us, but at the same time they aren't given the same rights as us, just because they are missing that 0.6percent of the genes. Explain to me the logic of that.

2. I apoligise for the misunderstanding which is probably caused by me not fully mastering the English language. What I meant was the ecological system, not the economical system.
According to very basic biologi there is a lot more energy wasted in feeding plants to animals and eating them than eating the plants directly. I'll quote peta.org, because I can't really express it better myself:

"We feed so much grain to animals to fatten them for consumption that if we all became vegetarians, we could produce enough food to feed everyone on Earth. In the U.S., animals raised for food are fed 70 percent of the corn, wheat, and other grains that we grow. The world’s cattle consume a quantity of food equal to the caloric needs of 8.7 billion people—more than the entire human population."

3. No, you do not need any artificial substitutes for meat. There are plenty of sources for protein in plants. It is also much easier for the human body to digest vegetarian proteins than animal proteins. Again, look at the animals that are the most similar to us: primates. They are hebivores, not carnivores.

4. As for my comment being "bollocks" see answer 2 again.

[Inttenssity]

If anyone can sensibly defend a claim that the global eco system would benifit from humans not eating meat then I am more than willing to retract that statement.

It is well-known that cattle ranching activities for the purpose of feeding the world's beef appetite is one of the top two global activities (in addition to logging) that depletes virgin rainforest (read that as "intact eco-system") as ranchers clear forest (typically slash/burn method) for their herds. This widespread forest clearing involves growing food to feed the cattle as well as land for the cattle themselves.

Here are several pieces of evidence to this point (the first two already being quoted on the site recently):

[1.]
I'll quote peta.org, because I can't really express it better myself:

"We feed so much grain to animals to fatten them for consumption that if we all became vegetarians, we could produce enough food to feed everyone on Earth. In the U.S., animals raised for food are fed 70 percent of the corn, wheat, and other grains that we grow. The world’s cattle consume a quantity of food equal to the caloric needs of 8.7 billion people—more than the entire human population."



[2.] From the "To eat meat, or not to eat meat" thread, complete with references in her very next post after this one appears:


Land Utilization and Soil Erosion

One-half of the Earth's land mass is grazed by livestock.[1]

More than 60% of the world's rangelands were damaged by overgrazing during the past half century.[2]

As much as 85% of rangeland in the western US is being degraded by overgrazing.[3]

Overgrazing is by far the most pervasive cause of desertification.[4]

35 pounds of topsoil are lost in the production of one pound of grain-fed beef.[5]

64% of US cropland produces livestock feed.[6]

Only 2% of US cropland produces fruits and vegetables.[7]

Pounds of edible product that can be produced on an acre of prime land:
Apples 20,000
Carrots 30,000
Potatoes 40,000
Tomatoes 50,000
Beef 250
[8]


Endangered Species

At least 100 animals are added to the endangered species list each year.[11]

Between 19 and 22% of all threatened and endangered species are harmed by livestock grazing.[12]


Rainforest Destruction

5 million acres of rainforest are felled every year in South and Central America to create cattle pasture.[13]

Cattle ranching has destroyed more Central American rainforest than any other activity.[14]

70% of cleared forests in Panama and Costa Rica are now in pasture.[15]


Pollution

Manure produced by all farm animals in the US annually is roughly 10 times the waste produced by the human population.[16]

Factory farms are the biggest contributors to polluted rivers and streams in the US.[17]

1,785 water bodies were impaired by feedlot pollution in 39 states in 1993.[18]

About 60,000 miles of streams in the US have fisheries impaired by feedlot pollution.[19]

More soot is emitted from the grills in Los Angeles fast food restaurants than all the city buses.[20]


[3.]
From: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/endangered-species/mg18224421.700

Brazil's beef trade wrecks rainforest
10 April 2004
Fred Pearce
Magazine issue 2442
WORLD demand for Brazilian beef is soaring, as consumers see it as a cheap, disease-free alternative to mad cows and flu-ridden poultry. But supplying the global beef market is deforesting the Amazon far faster than the logging trade.

An international forestry research body reports this week that Brazilian cattle ranchers are felling the world's largest rainforest with unprecedented speed to make way for pasture. "Brazil's deforestation rates are skyrocketing and beef production for export is to blame," says David Kaimowitz, director-general of the Indonesia-based Center for International Forestry Research, an organisation backed by the World Bank.

Within the next few weeks, says the report, Brazil's National Institute for Space Research will reveal satellite data showing that deforestation rates in the world's largest rainforest have been higher over the past two years than in any preceding 24-month period. In 2003, some 25,000 square kilometres of Amazon rainforest was destroyed.

[beardsley007]

Again, look at the animals that are the most similar to us: primates. They are hebivores, not carnivores.


Actually, our closest relatives in the primate family, chimps and such, are omnivores, as are humans, biologically. The pastoral image of the peaceful ape eating nuts and berries in the forest is a myth. Many ape species even engage in active hunting.

Also, alot of vegetation is completely indigestable by our digestive tract and can cause alot of problems and discomfort. However plants are still an important part of our diet, or should be and I think most people will agree we eat far too much meat than is necessary nutritionally. In fact we eat far too much of everything as a whole. And I believe modern farming practices are cruel. Even modern plant farming is damaging to land.

[C Blu]

How 'bout another southern-U.S. tour??
I promise we'll be nice this go 'round ;-p

[AntonyFrank]

Your nation didn't insult Morrissey, it may have disgusted him, but that was with a process that he clealy doesn't understand.

You have nothing to apologise for, he should open his eyes to the fact that he's talking rubbish about something he kjnows nothing about (I'm not saying I do, I'm saying he doesn't, Okay? M'kay!).

His live shows have been awful lately anyway. You didn't miss much.

Exactly why do you post on this site? Do you love or loathe Morrissey, because u'd swear it was the latter judging by this post.

[lnathan]

Actually, our closest relatives in the primate family, chimps and such, are omnivores, as are humans, biologically. The pastoral image of the peaceful ape eating nuts and berries in the forest is a myth. Many ape species even engage in active hunting.

Also, alot of vegetation is completely indigestable by our digestive tract and can cause alot of problems and discomfort. However plants are still an important part of our diet, or should be and I think most people will agree we eat far too much meat than is necessary nutritionally. In fact we eat far too much of everything as a whole. And I believe modern farming practices are cruel. Even modern plant farming is damaging to land.

OK I see that you probably know more about this than I do, so I can't really argue with that.
However, I do know that nutrition is a very complicated matter and that there are different theories about it all the time. So since I am a vegetarian and feel pretty healthy I will maintain that humans can live quite well without eating meat.

I also maintain that the main question is an ethical one: why do we exclude non-human life from having the undeniable right to life that we have?
And so far no one in this thread have even come close to ansewring it.

[CharethCutestory]

Exactly why do you post on this site? Do you love or loathe Morrissey, because u'd swear it was the latter judging by this post.


Okay Anne, I've been over this before but here goes.

I post on this site because I enjoy reading the hilarious answers that I get to my posts about how it's better to be a seal than a human, it's easier to be a heart surgeon than an undiscovered poet and it's better for the global-eco system for man not to eat meat. Seriously, that shit cracks me up, that they're so niaive that they will believe EVERY SINGLE WORD, that comes out of someone's mouth, just because they like their songs. Really, think about that for a second. It's MINDBLOWING.

I neither love nor loathe Morrissey, I don't know the man, I just consider him a person who used to write exceptionally good lyrics, which when combined with 3 musical geniuses meant that he was in possibly the best band in history, who now writes sub-standard, impersonations of his own work. I think the way in which he behaves is incredibly irresponsible given the amount of unquestioning devotion he is afforded by clearly very impressionable, potentially mentally unstable fans. He should realise that he is appealing to a lot of mentally unwell fans who he has a lot of power over and should watch what he says as a result, rather than milking their neuroses for his own ends.

That and he should play more than one hour and fifteen minutes per show, that shit's just lazy. I do still like some of his stuff, I just think that as a person he is irresponsible at best and delusional at worst. He needs some editing.

[lnathan]

Okay Anne, I've been over this before but here goes.

I post on this site because I enjoy reading the hilarious answers that I get to my posts about how it's better to be a seal than a human, it's easier to be a heart surgeon than an undiscovered poet and it's better for the global-eco system for man not to eat meat. Seriously, that shit cracks me up, that they're are so niaive that they will believe EVERY SINGLE WORD, that comes out of someone's mouth, just because they like their songs. Really, think about that for a second. It's MINDBLOWING.


I was a vegetarian before I was a Morrissey fan and my views on animal rights has nothing to do with him. I actually think that his views are mostly based on intuition and he doesnt't appear to me to have studied the philosophy behind it much. Nothing wrong with that but what I am trying to do is to base my views on logic.
Why don't you make a proper argument instead of just saying that mine are "bollocks"? Until you do I can't really take your comments seriousely.

[CharethCutestory]

I was a vegetarian before I was a Morrissey fan and my views on animal rights has nothing to do with him. I actually think that his views are mostly based on intuition and he doesnt't appear to me to have studied the philosophy behind it much. Nothing wrong with that but what I am trying to do is to base my views on logic.
Why don't you make a proper argument instead of just saying that mine are "bollocks"? Until you do I can't really take your comments seriousely.

I don't want to argue or upset anybody, I came up with a measured and reasonable discussion point, at that stage, you said "It would be better for the global eco-system if humans didn't eat meat". That is one of the most nonsensical, wrong -headed things that has ever been said. It doesn't mean ANYTHING.

What you are basically saying is "Evolution got it wrong", and that my friend, is balls.

Like I say, I'll agree to disagree, but I will not concur with something that is quite clearly made up.

[CharethCutestory]

In fact, here we go, in summation - PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR THE GLOBAL ECO SYSTEM FOR HUMAN BEINGS NOT TO EAT ANIMALS.

[lnathan]

There are plenty of possible answers in the above posts. Instead of keep saying it's bollocks try to actually consider the arguments that are being presented to you and tell me exactly why it is bollocks.

[lnathan]

...and you also keep avoiding my main question (again, see above posts)

[Puddle]

^^as far as animals are concerned, i don't think humans are meant to eat anything more than fish. the rest you can not kill with bare hands or eat raw (the risk of getting sick is too high...the food stays in our stomachs/intestines too long, as opposed to true carnivores/omnivores). however that's just based on what our bodies are able to handle raw...i don't eat fish because my morals get in my way.

as far as the ecosystem...well, the industrial feedlots are fucked up...they contribute to a lot of air and water pollution...also rainforests are being cut down for grazing. some believe too much land is being used for grains going to fattening animals for meat instead of being used to feed the hungry/world.

and of course we all know vegetarians are more peaceful and thus we would have less wars and destruction on the planet... well, except for Hitler ;)

[Inttenssity]

as far as the ecosystem...well, the industrial feedlots are fucked up...they contribute to a lot of air and water pollution...also rainforests are being cut down for grazing. some believe too much land is being used for grains going to fattening animals for meat instead of being used to feed the hungry/world.


^ and much of the animal - for which this grain was produced - gets wasted as fat/carcass/innards/excrement, and is not viable food

Yeah, your unreferenced summary here reinforces what I posted above (http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showpost.php?p=378997&postcount=67)as evidence for Chare about how cattle production for global human consumption obliterates intact eco-systems at a much faster rate than growing other types of food, ie vegetarian food, (for humans) does. (since he asked for proof of this)

It seems though, that if you give a well-referenced, thoroughly justified answer to his own request for evidence to an inquiry, it is simply over his head. So, he just reasks the same question (http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showpost.php?p=379371&postcount=75), presumably until someone answers with something along the lines of "it just does" (since he can relate to crude answers of that nature, along the lines of "bollocks") and then maybe he is satisfied with this as proof?

[lnathan]

^ and much of the animal - for which this grain was produced - gets wasted as fat/carcass/innards/excrement, and is not viable food

Yeah, your unreferenced summary here reinforces what I posted above (http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showpost.php?p=378997&postcount=67)as evidence for Chare about how cattle production for global human consumption obliterates intact eco-systems at a much faster rate than growing other types of food, ie vegetarian food, (for humans) does. (since he asked for proof of this)

It seems though, that if you give a well-referenced, thoroughly justified answer to his own request for evidence to an inquiry, it is simply over his head. So, he just reasks the same question (http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showpost.php?p=379371&postcount=75), presumably until someone answers with something along the lines of "it just does" (since he can relate to crude answers of that nature, along the lines of "bollocks") and then maybe he is satisfied with this as proof?

It is very common for people to behave like that when they know they have run out of real arguments and therefore are losing the debate. It always annoys me that people refuse to admit that maybe they don't know enough about the subject or that they are simply not right, instead of just disengaging or avoiding the main issue by turning to silly and crude answers.
But then again it just, once again, confirms that the arguments on which I base my views on animals rights can not be defeated.

[starry night]

Hey,
He "forgave" Jesus so, why can't he forgive US (the US) and just tour here, damnit....oh I forgot...look who's in office ruining the place...

[CharethCutestory]

It is very common for people to behave like that when they know they have run out of real arguments and therefore are losing the debate. It always annoys me that people refuse to admit that maybe they don't know enough about the subject or that they are simply not right, instead of just disengaging or avoiding the main issue by turning to silly and crude answers.
But then again it just, once again, confirms that the arguments on which I base my views on animals rights can not be defeated.

Ok, in answer to your main question about why it is bollocks - here goes -

1. Your arguements about the deforestation of parts of Argentina and the waste of grain produced as food for farmed animals are all well and good, however, what you seem to be missing the point on there is that your arguement revolves around farming practices being cruel and bad for the enviroment. I agree with you that the impact certain modern farming procedures has on the enviroment is unacceptable BUT, that does not mean that if people stopped eating meat it would be better for the enviroment, it means that if people changed their farming processes it would be better for the enviroment.

2. I think you misunderstand the reasons for meat not being eaten raw (it makes it darn tasty for a start) but the main reason people get ill now is down to the evolution of bacteria within the meat and the weakening of the human stomach due to several hundred years of having food cooked. It's like people living in a sterile enviroment become more susceptable to illness as they have not immune system built up to it. Cave men didn't barbecue all that much, they just ate whatever they could find.

3. Not sure if it was you who said it but the arguement that we should only eat fish because we can't catch and kill anything else made very little sense. I know a few people who could kill a cow with their bare hands, but I don't think either point is relevant to the discussion.

So to sum up, you're arguement isn't really about what would happen to the eco-system if humans stop eating animals, it's about how it's bad for the enviroment to chop down forests (which is true). I think you've just got yourself a bit mixed up, that's all. There is no evidence what so ever to support the idea that if humans stopped eating meat it would have a positive impact on the eco-system. Think it through, where would the cows go for a start? Wild cows would not be a good idea.

[lnathan]

Ok, in answer to your main question about why it is bollocks - here goes -

1. Your arguements about the deforestation of parts of Argentina and the waste of grain produced as food for farmed animals are all well and good, however, what you seem to be missing the point on there is that your arguement revolves around farming practices being cruel and bad for the enviroment. I agree with you that the impact certain modern farming procedures has on the enviroment is unacceptable BUT, that does not mean that if people stopped eating meat it would be better for the enviroment, it means that if people changed their farming processes it would be better for the enviroment.

2. I think you misunderstand the reasons for meat not being eaten raw (it makes it darn tasty for a start) but the main reason people get ill now is down to the evolution of bacteria within the meat and the weakening of the human stomach due to several hundred years of having food cooked. It's like people living in a sterile enviroment become more susceptable to illness as they have not immune system built up to it. Cave men didn't barbecue all that much, they just ate whatever they could find.

3. Not sure if it was you who said it but the arguement that we should only eat fish because we can't catch and kill anything else made very little sense. I know a few people who could kill a cow with their bare hands, but I don't think either point is relevant to the discussion.

So to sum up, you're arguement isn't really about what would happen to the eco-system if humans stop eating animals, it's about how it's bad for the enviroment to chop down forests (which is true). I think you've just got yourself a bit mixed up, that's all. There is no evidence what so ever to support the idea that if humans stopped eating meat it would have a positive impact on the eco-system. Think it through, where would the cows go for a start? Wild cows would not be a good idea.

I appreciate you reeingaging in the discussion, but these arguments that you are referring to are actually not mine but inttenssity's (I believe).

My approach to this issue is a philosophical one, so my main question is not about the eco-system. It is, and have been from the beginning of this discussion, the ethical question: why do we draw a line between human and non-human life? What is the logical basis for doing that?
I have so far found that the is none.

As for the eco-system, I did actually reply to your first protest by simply pointing out that there is a lot more energy waste in feeding animals for meat consumption than to eat vegetation directly, therefore we'de be able to feed the world better that way (according to my personal logic). As for wild cows, why is that a bad idea? They have them in India. Also it is unlikely that everybody on earth will become vegetarian over night. It will be a gradual process where we of course will stop breeding animals for food.
Inttenssity seems to know more about hose things, so if you really want to have the eco-system discussion, I'll leave it to her to answer the more complicated questions.

But the way I see it, all that is irrelevant as soon as you realize that animals should have the same right to live as we do. We would never consider killing people because it would be better for the eco-system. When there was still slavery in America peolpe said, "it will never work without slavery. The cotton industry will collapse and what about all the negros that will suddenly be running about?" But you would never say that was reason enough for keeping people trapped in slavery would you?

[lnathan]

Why's that? I'm a bit of a 'wild cow' myself, ha ha! :D

:D

I actually can't wait to see his reply to that. Not you being a wild cow, but why it shouldn't be a good idea.

[CharethCutestory]

Why's that? I'm a bit of a 'wild cow' myself, ha ha! :D

I definately think the world is a better place with you running about in it.

[lilikoi]

Think it through, where would the cows go for a start? Wild cows would not be a good idea.

You do realize that the cows are only there because humans breed them for consumption, do you? You do realize that these cows (as well as all the other millions of animals raised and slaughtered for food) simply would NOT be there at all. And if you start thinking then it should be obvious to you that if humans would eat the grains they feed to these animals to make them grow in order to eat them directly then logically less grains would have to be cultivated. Or is that too complicated to graps? You don't even have to have any compassion at all with animals to be able to make this elementary school type calculation. It's a known - very logical fact and it's not up for debate.

[Jaguar Rose]

Ok, in answer to your main question about why it is bollocks - here goes -

1. Your arguements about the deforestation of parts of Argentina and the waste of grain produced as food for farmed animals are all well and good, however, what you seem to be missing the point on there is that your arguement revolves around farming practices being cruel and bad for the enviroment. I agree with you that the impact certain modern farming procedures has on the enviroment is unacceptable BUT, that does not mean that if people stopped eating meat it would be better for the enviroment, it means that if people changed their farming processes it would be better for the enviroment.

But, surely if there was no further demand for the product, there would be no reason to produce it, and said practices would cease? That's what i understood to be the logic behind his/her argument.

I could be wrong! Shockingly, it's happened before. :D

[CharethCutestory]

But, surely if there was no further demand for the product, there would be no reason to produce it, and said practices would cease? That's what i understood to be the logic behind his/her argument.

I could be wrong! Shockingly, it's happened before. :D

Still, the fact remains that it's the procedure of meat manufacture that is the problem, not the fact that humans are omnivores.

What about all the cows and chickens, where would they go?

[lilikoi]

What about all the cows and chickens, where would they go?

are you really that stupid or are you just trying to be total kook? hello - wake up - they wouldn't be there at all.
you're not doing yourself a favour by persistently writing rubbish. we are all very unimpressed you know...


I think we should all ignore this Chareth character. why waste time with people who can't count to three but know it all. yaaaawn.
good bye.

[Puddle]

i think chareth has been composing himself decently on the thread. i don't agree with him and i think he is missing the point. I jsut want to add, in another way of looking at it, mroe energy is required to feed animals that will then be used for food, as compared to that food for animals going directly to humans (and not to mention less land use)...so the point here is...more energy=more polution...it's more strain on the ecosystem. This is very logical. There is no 100% efficient system...but the meat based diet is the least efficient and thus most polluting. period.

whether humans are meant to be herbivores or omnivores...i guess the verdict is out for some. though in my opinion, since if you look at the layout and size of certain organs, and the teeth, and the lack of enzymes to digest raw meat (and i don't blame evolution...the matter of fact I am pretty sure humans didn't really start eating animals until they invented weapons and fire. before then they survived on vegetation unless if forced to eat meat due to the threat of starvation. we see this currently at times with herbivores in nautre. Not to mention in feedlots when industrial farmers feed herbivore animals meat on purpose in order to give them more protein (reason why mad cow came to be).

so that's that.

[CharethCutestory]

are you really that stupid or are you just trying to be total kook? hello - wake up - they wouldn't be there at all.
you're not doing yourself a favour by persistently writing rubbish. we are all very unimpressed you know...


I think we should all ignore this Chareth character. why waste time with people who can't count to three but know it all. yaaaawn.
good bye.

Ok then tons of fun. What do you propose we do with all the farmed animals when we stop eating them? Cull them? Give them their own pad? Just eat what we've got, but don't breed anymore and when we've finished them that's our lot?

Somebody was trying to put forward a serious arguement for stopping eating meat. I was merely illustrating the flaws in that plan.

I think you should be careful when speaking for other people, who is the "we" that is unimpressed? As far as I was aware most people involved in the discussion were enjoying the exchange of ideas.

I no claim to know it all G. I just try to share my forts.

Reroys,

Chareth

[lilikoi]

yeah, chareth is the one who hates most morrissey songs, hates morrissey and hates animal rights. I've seen these kind of posers lurking around vegan forums aparently getting off on causing a stir by posting rubbish. what a bore. some people must have pretty empty lives or a lot of anger to offload (hidden behind an avatar and a computer...) - and defintely too much free time.

next thing you know he'll come up with the 'oh but plants feel pain too, I've seen it on TV' argument. double yaaawn.

[Puddle]

Ok then tons of fun. What do you propose we do with all the farmed animals when we stop eating them? Cull them? Give them their own pad? Just eat what we've got, but don't breed anymore and when we've finished them that's our lot?

Somebody was trying to put forward a serious arguement for stopping eating meat. I was merely illustrating the flaws in that plan.

I think you should be careful when speaking for other people, who is the "we" that is unimpressed? As far as I was aware most people involved in the discussion were enjoying the exchange of ideas.

I no claim to know it all G. I just try to share my forts.

Reroys,

Chareth

i believe cows will die if humans don't tend to them. I'm not sure of the history of cows...but i bel\ieve they need us to milk them or they die...so it means they can't survive in the wild. i mean, it would mean no more cows...i wouldn't care all that much...keep some dna somewhere for safe keeping and that's that.

but i'm not sure if what i said is true.

[lilikoi]

Ok then tons of fun. What do you propose we do with all the farmed animals when we stop eating them? Cull them? Give them their own pad? Just eat what we've got, but don't breed anymore and when we've finished them that's our lot?



ahhh - darn. I am wasting one more second of my time answering this before I call it quits - but do you seriously think that all humans will stop eating meat from one day to the next?
let's see now - could it be that this would be a gradual process like everything else in history and animals would gradually not be bred for slaughter anymore?

bingo!

[CharethCutestory]

yeah, chareth is the one who hates most morrissey songs, hates morrissey and hates animal rights. I've seen these kind of posers lurking around vegan forums aparently getting off on causing a stir by posting rubbish. what a bore. some people must have pretty empty lives or a lot of anger to offload (hidden behind an avatar and a computer...) - and defintely too much free time.

next thing you know he'll come up with the 'oh but plants feel pain too, I've seen it on TV' argument. double yaaawn.


Vegan's have their own forums?

[lilikoi]

i believe cows will die if humans don't tend to them. I'm not sure of the history of cows...but i bel\ieve they need us to milk them or they die...so it means they can't survive in the wild. i mean, it would mean no more cows...i wouldn't care all that much...keep some dna somewhere for safe keeping and that's that.

but i'm not sure if what i said is true.

no - cows do not need us to milk them. as a matter of fact they only give 'productive' amounts of milk when they are constantly inseminated and the calves are killed so humans can take the milk.

[CharethCutestory]

ahhh - darn. I am wasting one more second of my time answering this before I call it quits - but do you seriously think that all humans will stop eating meat from one day to the next?
let's see now - could it be that this would be a gradual process like everything else in history and animals would gradually not be bred for slaughter anymore?

bingo!

Are. You. On. Crack?

Ok, listen carefully now dear. Ready?

I am not suggesting that all humans will stop eating meat at all. In fact, I don't want to rain on your little quorn floated parade, BUT ALL HUMANS AREN'T GOING TO STOP EATING MEAT AT ALL!!!!!!

Somebody else suggested that it would be a good idea for all humans to stop eating meat, they didn't say gradually, they didn't say we'd have to keep the cows as pets afterwards, they didn't say we were going to make the chickens get jobs. They just said it would be better to stop. IT WASN'T MY IDEA AND IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.

IT'S HYPOTHETICAL DEAR.

Why don't you pop off and have some semolina?

[CharethCutestory]

no - cows do not need us to milk them. as a matter of fact they only give 'productive' amounts of milk when they are constantly inseminated and the calves are killed so humans can take the milk.

It's lovely stuff though isn't it. Mmmmmm, calcium.

[lilikoi]

It's lovely stuff though isn't it. Mmmmmm, calcium.


I say: bring me the head of chareth cutestory - on a plate - that's the only time meat wouldn't be murder.

:D :D :D

sayonara and buenas noches

[CharethCutestory]

I say: bring me the head of chareth cutestory - on a plate - that's the only time meat wouldn't be murder.

:D :D :D

sayonara and buenas noches


You wouldn't say that if a badger had proved you wrong. You frickin' hypocrite.

[lilikoi]

Are. You. On. Crack?




not yet - but I feel like getting out the torch right now after reading your posts

[CharethCutestory]

not yet - but I feel like getting out the torch right now after reading your posts

Conversly, I love reading your posts. Those little smiley faces you put in after death threats really show off your wacky outlook on life.

Prick.

[CharethCutestory]

Why, are you thinking of becoming one? If so, this link will be a good place to start:



http://www.thenakedvegan.net/index.php


Goodness me no, the lifestyle really wouldn't suit me. I have nothing against people doing it, it's just not for me.

I'll be honest Jo, I'm hesitating before I click on a link for a site called the naked vegan.

[lilikoi]

Conversly, I love reading your posts. Those little smiley faces you put in after death threats really show off your wacky outlook on life.

Prick.


riiiiiiiight.
well I'm glad I made your night.
here's one more to make you happy.
:D

[CharethCutestory]

riiiiiiiight.
well I'm glad I made your night.
here's one more to make you happy.
:D

If I asked you to eat me, how would you take it?

[CharethCutestory]

It's not porn; it's a forum for enlightened individuals. Join the fun! We have soy recipes and health rememdies.

You ain'ts gonna bully me if I come over to yours are you?

[lnathan]

So Charethcutestory, have you completely given up or are you gonna reply to my post?

[CharethCutestory]

So Charethcutestory, have you completely given up or are you gonna reply to my post?

Which one haven't I answered? Sorry, it's just some crazed bint started having an unprevoked pop at me and I lost track.

[lilikoi]

If I asked you to eat me, how would you take it?

you should be proud, I stole a quote from morrissey (the "bring me the head on a plate" one) - and switched the head of elton john to yours.

ooook, I promise won't eat you. I'm vegetarian.

[CharethCutestory]

Which crazed bint? There are several on this forum.

Likholy or something. She's taken a real dislike to me. I have no idea why.

[CharethCutestory]

So Charethcutestory, have you completely given up or are you gonna reply to my post?

Spill it then. Which question didn't I answer?

[CharethCutestory]

you should be proud, I stole a quote from morrissey (the "bring me the head on a plate" one) - and switched the head of elton john to yours.

ooook, I promise won't eat you. I'm vegetarian.

I don't care what Morrssey said, Crocodile rock is a good song.

[CharethCutestory]

I can find the words to express the horror that statement has caused me.

This is what I'm talking about. You need to give in to your sense of fun. It ok to have a laugh.

Sing with me Jo - NAAAAAAA, NA NA NA NA NAAAAAAAAR, NA NA NA NA NAAAAAAR, NA NA NA NA NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR

[lnathan]

Spill it then. Which question didn't I answer?


Why don't look back in the forum yourself. I really don't have either the time or the patience to keep pointing things out to you because you are too lazy to remain focused in a discussion.
Sorry to express myself so harshly but I think it is a bit rude to first avoid answering my questions, then call me ridiculous to other people, then ask me to repeat my arguments which you then completely ignore. And now you want me to, once again, point out to you what my question is.
Sorry but I have better things to do.

I tried...but failed.

[CharethCutestory]

Why don't look back in the forum yourself. I really don't have either the time or the patience to keep pointing things out to you because you are too lazy to remain focused in a discussion.
Sorry to express myself so harshly but I think it is a bit rude to first avoid answering my questions, then call me ridiculous to other people, then ask me to repeat my arguments which you then completely ignore. And now you want me to, once again, point out to you what my question is.
Sorry but I have better things to do.

I tried...but failed.

Well whose a tetchy little goose tonight. ok, the only one I can't see that I answered was the one about "Why would it be bad to have wild cows running about". To be honest, it was that daft I thought it was a joke question, but ok, here we go. In less than 60 words -

It would be bad to have wild cows runnning about because..... they would shit in the street, wander into the middle of the motorway and cause accidents, get ideas above their station and want their own buses and stuff and end up thinking that they could run things their way without considering what the chickens had to say.

I mean seriously, what do you want me to say? That it's a good idea to have wild cows running about? I can't believe I'm having this conversation or that somebody would ask such a ridiculous question and then expect an answer. Did somebody slip me some acid?

[CharethCutestory]

[QUOTE=joroberts17;380493] We could also introduce laws whereby cars had to slow down for cows and other creatures.QUOTE]


Sure, you'd save a couple of lives..... BUT THOUSANDS WOULD BE LATE!

[CharethCutestory]

I'm going to bed now. Night.

If anybody calls me a cunt, please don't think that I'm ignoring you. I'll be back at some pointover the weekend to defend my ass.

[CharethCutestory]

[QUOTE=CharethCutestory;380494]


Time? What is time? Tis' nought more than man-made folly.


Tell that to Steven Hawking.

[CharethCutestory]

Why don't look back in the forum yourself. I really don't have either the time to keep pointing things out to you because you are too lazy to remain focused in a discussion.

Why? What else are you doing? Chatting to hot babes on the internet all day?

[CharethCutestory]

Why only your ass? Don't you want to defend the rest of your body too?

No. Just my ass. The rest of me can look after itself.

[CharethCutestory]

Define a 'hot babe'. What an unfortunate term.


It's a movie quote. Don't worry. I just think Inathan sounds like a prick, I was ripping him. Not woman kind.

Peace.

[lnathan]

It's a movie quote. Don't worry. I just think Inathan sounds like a prick, I was ripping him. Not woman kind.

Peace.

I am a woman.
And I think you sound like a very narrow minded person and I don't really have time for people like that, so this will be the last you hear from me. Have a nice evening.

Jo, why are you wasting your time talking to this person?

[Jaguar Rose]

We could also introduce laws whereby cars had to slow down for cows and other creatures.


Sure, you'd save a couple of lives..... BUT THOUSANDS WOULD BE LATE!

Heheheh. I suspected you might ascribe to the Homer Simpson school of debate. :p

[lilikoi]

Why? What else are you doing? Chatting to hot babes on the internet all day?

I think that's what you should try instead of wasting your own and everybody elses time in the forum of a musician you don't even like and discussing animal rights which you find stupid. I wonder what your motivation is? Why don't you find yourself a forum about something you actually like? There must be one.

[CharethCutestory]

I think that's what you should try instead of wasting your own and everybody elses time in the forum of a musician you don't even like and discussing animal rights which you find stupid. I wonder what your motivation is? Why don't you find yourself a forum about something you actually like? There must be one.

My motivation is to share opinions and broaden my knowledge of the world (and the people) around me. Why would anyone want to spend time in a forum where everyone agreed with them? It would be like one long, dull, mutal toss off session.

Why is it you want me to leave? Can you be a bit more specific please?

[northerngirl]

I actually don't have a comment to the thread currently being discussed - however I am the poor soul who started this whole conversation of possible touring times in Canada/U.S.

I was curious if any of you truly believe that Chicago is the only U.S. date and unfortunately nothing else!?

Coming all the way from Canada may be a bit of a stretch at this time of year in the middle of the week. Perhaps, if it was a weekend. Please say that this isn't the only date. Any word or deed you know what to do.

Thanks
northerngirl:rolleyes:

[sarahT]

Jo, why are you wasting your time talking to this person?

She probably enjoys sparring with him. I don't agree with much of what Chareth says but he is very intelligent, entertaining and funny.

[lilikoi]

My motivation is to share opinions and broaden my knowledge of the world (and the people) around me. Why would anyone want to spend time in a forum where everyone agreed with them? It would be like one long, dull, mutal toss off session.

Why is it you want me to leave? Can you be a bit more specific please?

No you don't! Someone who wants to broaden his horizon does agree to facts once in a while - and also asks questions that actually make sense, which you don't. you think you know it all and you must have the last word, no matter how stupid it is. You obviously hate Morrissey (so why are you hanging around in a Moz forum?) and now you want to torture the mans fans. But whatever, if that makes you happy, I am not telling you to leave - I can just ignore you, really. It only takes a click of the mouse.

[the more you explore me!]

No you don't! Someone who wants to broaden his horizon does agree to facts once in a while - and also asks questions that actually make sense, which you don't. you think you know it all and you must have the last word, no matter how stupid it is. You obviously hate Morrissey (so why are you hanging around in a Moz forum?) and now you want to torture the mans fans. But whatever, if that makes you happy, I am not telling you to leave - I can just ignore you, really. It only takes a click of the mouse.

you shouldn't let him annoy so much. he is a Smiths fan and has been for a long time, he just doesn't care for the solo career much, which is fair enough.
forums are for opinions, which has been said time and time again, it a shame that people on them get angry and name call and so on. i find some of the things he writes are funny (even if i don't agree with him sometimes) also yours and joroberts interesting, original and entertaining.

wasn't this thread about playing in canada....

[lnathan]

She probably enjoys sparring with him. I don't agree with much of what Chareth says but he is very intelligent, entertaining and funny.


No he's not. He doesn't even have the intellectual capacity to stay focused in a discussion, read posts, answer questions etc. He refuses to accept whatever fact is presented to him and just wiggles out of the discussion by saying my questions are too silly to deserve an answer. That is not a sign of intelligence.
I think he is more annoying than funny. But if jo finds him amusing, who am I to judge...

[lnathan]

you shouldn't let him annoy so much. he is a Smiths fan and has been for a long time, he just doesn't care for the solo career much, which is fair enough.
forums are for opinions, which has been said time and time again, it a shame that people on them get angry and name call and so on. i find some of the things he writes are funny (even if i don't agree with him sometimes) also yours and joroberts interesting, original and entertaining.

wasn't this thread about playing in canada....

It is about opinion and she is stating her opinion, which is pretty fair in MY opinion.

The thread was about Canada and Morrissey refusing to play there because og the seal cull. That's why the discussion moved on to the issue of animal rights, which is a subject that can not be discussed enough really.

[CharethCutestory]

It is about opinion and she is stating her opinion, which is pretty fair in MY opinion.

The thread was about Canada and Morrissey refusing to play there because og the seal cull. That's why the discussion moved on to the issue of animal rights, which is a subject that can not be discussed enough really.

I disagree, I think we've covered animal rights and it's not something that anybody should be worrying about anymore.

Let's all have a cornetto.

[the more you explore me!]

I will always worry about animals rights, as would 'anyone who had a heart'. See what I did there, slipping a song title into the mix. That was good.

always good to see dusty springfield songs used.

what i think cutestory is saying is to leave this thread as it is. it's good that morrissey doesn't tour there (sorry to the canadians) and has stated his reasons for this, while he could of gone and made a few more pennies. it's sad news for the morrissey fans who live there and don't agree with seal slaughter either and then can't go and see the man play concerts!

i like the idea of getting a cornetto too, can i have the mint one pls and i don't like nuts.

[lnathan]

I disagree, I think we've covered animal rights and it's not something that anybody should be worrying about anymore.

Let's all have a cornetto.

You are so predictable

[lilikoi]

I think Moz should also refuse to play in France - not that I know of any dates there anyway - but I just translated this stuff about forcefeeding into german and it's just horrendous - the french have passed a law declaring forcefeeding geese a national hertiage! incredible shit. they sent my a DVD which I refuse to watch and want to send to Moz. where to send it, thow? to his tour agent?
here is the site:
http://www.stopgavage.com/en/index.php

[lnathan]

Sanctuary Records maybe?

I just watched a little bit of the footage. Those people who work at those farms...they can't be human, they must be robots. I can't even watch 10 seconds of it without tearing up. It's just so sick.
And I am even more astonished that people actually eat this.

[CharethCutestory]

You are so predictable

Ok then, what am I going to say next then?

I have never come across such a heavy infestation of closed minded people as this.

No disrespect to the people that aren't, in my experience you've been lovely to me..... you know who you are (chica, the more you explore me, Jeff196, Jo (eventually) etc).

[scottishlass]

I think Moz should also refuse to play in France - not that I know of any dates there anyway - but I just translated this stuff about forcefeeding into german and it's just horrendous - the french have passed a law declaring forcefeeding geese a national hertiage! incredible shit. they sent my a DVD which I refuse to watch and want to send to Moz. where to send it, thow? to his tour agent?
here is the site:
http://www.stopgavage.com/en/index.php

That is unbelievable and quite disgusting. Is this now a definate law in France? Who sent you the DVD?

[Bluebirds]

Je l'aime.

Canadians..French... New Polynesians... they're all the frogging same!!! Comme ci, comme ca.

Geese deserve it... More yummy spuds cooked by the paradigm of posh totty Nigella.

I HAVE NO SYMPATHY. I like choking the chicken whislt thinking about Kickstand anyway

[scottishlass]

Je l'aime.

Canadians..French... New Polynesians... they're all the frogging same!!! Comme ci, comme ca.

Geese deserve it... More yummy spuds cooked by the paradigm of posh totty Nigella.

I HAVE NO SYMPATHY. I like choking the chicken whislt thinking about Kickstand anyway

oh boy! good job I think you are a funny guy cos normally I would have exploded at that , but a big LOL* from me on that.. v v funny but BAD! but choking the chicken whilst thinking of kickstand lol again! you do realise kickstand is a boy!

*please note this is a serious topic and should not be trivialised in such a way..but I'm afraid I'm a vegetarian with a sense of humour.

[Bluebirds]

oh boy! good job I think you are a funny guy cos normally I would have exploded at that , but a big LOL* from me on that.. v v funny but BAD! but choking the chicken whilst thinking of kickstand lol again! you do realise kickstand is a boy!

*please note this is a serious topic and should not be trivialised in such a way..but I'm afraid I'm a vegetarian with a sense of humour.

I'm a veggie too but then again so is Heather Mills McCartney.

[MozSmith1]

Well, to thee origin of this thread. I hope Moz plays British Columbia at best. I've had close ties to Vancouver and so it would be nice if he played there so i can go back to Canada again for a good reason.

Cheers to you NorthernGirl!