Jack Straw and his innate hatred of Muslim women

[dazzak]

That got your attention. So, what's... your... opinion?

[dazzak]

Oh, come on. Tear yourselves away from masturbating over Morrissey's youthful, good looks and listing things for a few minutes.

[drunken goldfish]

Maybe it would help if you'd explain what you're talking about. I'm personally too occupied with "masturbating and listing" to brush up on current events, especially those in the UK.

[dazzak]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5411954.stm

The latest Muslim furore.

[bikubesong]

I read parts of it-- The same thing was discussed in Norway a year ago. I cannot see the problem with muslim women wearing veils- as long as it's their own choice. We're critisising muslim leaders for disallowing girls in muslim countries to wear miniskirts etc.. And then we do the same thing to them here with again not allowing them to wear what they want??

Sorry about my English, I KNOW it's not good.

[wolve]

Saw it on television, didn't understand

[drunken goldfish]

You want to opress yourself, be my guest.

[dazzak]

You want to opress yourself, be my guest.
So you think if women choose to cover up their face as a result of their interpretation of the Qur'an they are opressing themselves?

[drunken goldfish]

Yes. Just like I think Jewish Orthodox women oppresse themselves when they shave their head and wear ridiculous wigs instead, so they won't be attractive, God forbid. How could it not be oppressive when there's such a double standard between men and women?

[dazzak]

Yes. Just like I think Jewish Orthodox women oppresse themselves when they shave their head and wear ridiculous wigs instead, so they won't be attractive, God forbid. How could it not be oppressive when there's such a double standard between men and women?
From my fairly rudimentary knowledge of Judaism, I don't think they shave their heads to look unattractive. Isn't it to be clean for the mivka bath? The same goes for men, but as women's hair is longer, they shave it off to accommodate their interpretation of the requirements. I don't see how their choice to do so could be oppressive.

[drunken goldfish]

^^Regarding Jews: Women's hair is one of their most attractive features, therefore if they're married they're supposed to keep it covered with a hat or a wig (if you're not married you don't have to, but you need to keep if in a ponytail, braid etc.). I've never heard of a mikve connection, so I can't comment. Women are also required to dress modestly, which means religious women wear long sleeved shirts in 30+ degrees weather, while the men walk around in shorts. If that is not discrimination and oppression, I don't know what is. Judaism is also oppressive towards women in tons of other ways, btw.

Regarding Muslims: As far as I know, the modesty thing is also the reason for covering the face - you'll notice Muslim men aren't required to do that. Again I ask, how is that not oppression?

[dazzak]

Well, I have talked to, read and heard Muslim women in the West defend their right to wear whatever they so choose. Lots of Muslim women feel it is empowering. I totally agree that forced wearing of the veil is opression, but in the West, I think you'll find that the vast majority of women choose to wear it. Where is the opression in freedom of choice?

[drunken goldfish]

As I said, they're opprsseing themselves. They choose to accept oppressive beliefs. I have to go now but I'll write a more lengthy reply later.

[DeliciousDemon]

I come from a place that suffered from hatred and ethic/religious intolerance a lot so seeing all that and knowing what cosequences it brings I'm all for "live and let live" concept. If it doesn't hurt anyone, it doesn't bother me. If people have their reasons to wear these vails or shave their heads because they think it's a proper thing to do then who am I to judge? I'm fine with it as long as it's their choice - and in most cases it is.

[helmoz]

i agree with all the comments here. if they choose to wear certain clothes for religious reasons, it's their own choice, they should be free to do that. i don't think they should be forced to wear them, or forced not to wear them, though.
i see no problem at all with people just covering their hair, as you can still see their faces, although covering the face (as some do) could cause problems: what if they have to show their face for a reason, e.g. if they need to have a photo of the face for a passport? but otherwise it should be ok for people to wear what they want.

[chica]

I agree with Jack Straw on this one. How the hell can you have a proper conversation with someone if you can't see their face? It's not even a religious garment, as anyone who has read the Koran from cover to cover will know. No-where in the Koran does it mention veils.

It is a garment of oppression. Why is it only the women who wear the veils? It conveys a powerful, destructive message, which is that the female form is offensive, and should be covered up. Unsurprising, considering basically all organised religion is inherently misogynist, but Islam is particularly bad for misogyny.

Also, too many muslims actively choose to segregate themselves by embracing things like the veil, yet moan about how badly they're treated. Many of them don't want to integrate; they'd rather mix with their own people and look down on the 'sinful' ways of white Britons, which is pretty rich coming from people who invariably advocate oppression and the death penalty. The government has been more than accomodating to immigrants, and allowing muslim immigrants into the country/supplying them with benefits, yet a white British newsreader is told she cannot wear a cross because of it's religious implications. Disgusting double standards.

Few people can even mention all of the terrorist attacks without getting accused of being racist, which is deeply wrong.

I can actually see that particular situation in this country escalating dangerously. I fear for the safety of white Britons, as any sane person should.
http://www.imajlar.com/free_clipart/cowboy_clipart/cowboy_clipart_horse_shoe.gif

Horseshoe is an example of left-wing and right-wing extremism. They are much closer to each other than to the center. That's one of the reasons why I fear leftist extremists, however cute I may find their views from time to time.

Jo, is your real name Enoch?

[chica]

Criticizing death penalty and violation of human rights is one thing, believing in superiority of one nation/race is something completely different.

Why on earth should every Muslim in the UK want to "integrate"? What makes your culture superior to theirs?

[Sir Alec]

See, this is a problem. Anyone so much as voices any criticism of the muslim race, and suddenly, all the goody-goodys pop up and start shouting 'racist!' It's so silly. I used to be a goody-goody too, but it is not sustainable in this day and age. Sorry.

There is no such thing is a Muslim Race. There are Arabs, Persians, Turks, Israelis and many others in the middle east. Not all of them are muslim, but they are all in the same area.

I find it funny you can even respond to this thread without knowing that.

For the record, I'm against ALL organised religion, including Islam and all forms of Christianity. I find that all the Christians I've ever know display the most UN-Christian behaviour.

True, but some organized religion is okay, its just overly used. Some people just live better being led around all their lives, while others like like to customize their religion to fit their lives. Some people, like me, just don't give a shit about anything.

I have major problems with Islam, numbers 1 and 2 on the list being the use of the death penalty against minors in Iran and Tehran, and the oppression of woman. Surely no-one can be in support of these things?

That is not necessarily the right practice of Islam, just like the KKK doesn't practice the proper form of protestant christianity. Oppression of women is almost all the major religions such as Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism, but most religious people in the 21st century should avoid this for Chica's sake.

[chica]

Welcome on board SA! (God this sounded like it has something to do with Hitler... :rolleyes: )

[Sir Alec]

Welcome on board SA! (God this sounded like it has something to do with Hitler... :rolleyes: )

Heil Chica!

I just hope joroberts17 learns something from my post and uses it for future reference.

Sieg Heil!

Edit: Wanna to know something funny about Nazi Germany and its history in my family?

[Busy Clippers]

Explain to me how suggesting that people of all races, religions, creeds and colours integrate is akin to me saying that my culture is superior to theirs? Integration is necessary to create a harmonious society. I did not say that my culture was 'superior' to theirs, so please don't imply that I did.

Integration is a tricky word. Perhaps you mean acculturation? It's a cycle and will happen eventually, on both sides.

[chica]

Explain to me how suggesting that people of all races, religions, creeds and colours integrate is akin to me saying that my culture is superior to theirs? Integration is necessary to create a harmonious society. I did not say that my culture was 'superior' to theirs, so please don't imply that I did.
I won't imply anything, you're just wrong. Integration is necessary to create a uniform society. If you think that "harmonious" can't mean "full of differences", well, join Hitler and Stalin's club.

[Busy Clippers]

Edit: Wanna to know something funny about Nazi Germany and its history in my family?

Yes please. Were Hugo Boss-designed uniforms and monocles involved?

[Sir Alec]

You're just being fucking childish now. If you can't accept a balanced discourse, where everyone has a say in the matter, without resorting to calling people Nazis, then I guess you shouldn't get involved in debates. You just sound like a fourteen year old who's had their first taste of Liberal thought. Grow up.

I never meant to offend you. You need to look more into the differences between what religion says and what people use it to say. I was just trying to clear some stuff up for you, and I was just trying to say there is no such thing as a muslim race, just like there is no christian race. I never called you or anyone else a Nazi. The funny story was:

The side of my family that is of Polish/German heritage served in the American army and fought against the German members of our family still in Germany during WWII.

Funny?

Also, calm down please. We don't need a heated debate in Morrissey-Solo Forums.

[Busy Clippers]

Alec,

Not funny "haha," but interesting.

How did Hitler tie his shoesies?

In little Nazis.

[drunken goldfish]

That is not necessarily the right practice of Islam
Let's go back to the original topic, the veils. That is the right practice of Islam, and I just don't see how you don't find this oppressive. I support the women's right to wear veils, but it's important to realize what stands behind it - very dangerous views about women's rights, especially sexual ones. Remember that according to Islam (and Judaism, as I mentioned), the men can wear whatever they want - "modesty" only applies to women.

[Sir Alec]

Let's go back to the original topic, the veils. That is the right practice of Islam, and I just don't see how you don't find this oppressive. I support the women's right to wear veils, but it's important to realize what stands behind it - very dangerous views about women's rights, especially sexual ones. Remember that according to Islam (and Judaism, as I mentioned), the men can wear whatever they want - "modesty" only applies to women.

True, but I wasn't arguing over that. We kinda hijacked the thread for a second because joro had to yell at me and call me a 14-year old for saying Sieg Heil.

[dazzak]

Some of the women know they are being oppressed, like one Muslim girl I used to know, who would complain about the fact her father wouldn't let her drive her car alone at night.
Take her to a refuge immediately.

The reaction of certain people in the media, community and here is really reinforcing my opinion that the Muslim has become the modern McCarthy Communist bogeyman. The media knows how to sell prejudice and fear, so they of course will overstate anything Islam related and choose the simple "Blame Muslims" excuse instead of facing its own social faults.

This phenomenon of neo-fundamentalism (which is mostly harmless, but can lead to violent minorities) is a definite social problem. These small groups of native-born Western extremists are a direct result of the alienation society and the hopelessness of the economical underclass. They're the same mechanisms that trigger violent racist gangs and white supremacist groups (in all countries from Russia to Europe and America). They're the same mechanisms that trigger criminal gangs and an escalating sexism and violent attitude in our ways (I know violence was more present in Jack the Ripper’s days, but, in a modern social context, violence, gun use etc. have escalated in the last few decades).

The cause of the violence and birth of violent Muslim groups is society’s socio-economical downfall. It is in the old limping industrial countries with escalating poverty and despair among their growing underclasses that you’ll find these extremist Muslim minorities. Just like you’ll find a lot more shootings, killings and skinhead gangs

The rise of violent Muslim groups is mostly a domestic problem for the UK. You’ll find the reasons for these people’s terrorists activities and separatism in structural violence against the working classes; you’ll find the reasons in the Hackney ghettos, in the alienation from society and in the post-Thatcher, divided society (saved the economy, fucked the country). Just like you’ll find it in Spain or France’s alienated underclass ghettos. If you look at the richer and more economically homogenous countries in Europe (Scandinavia, Luxembourg, Switzerland etc.) you will not find the same problems. If a country is healthy, it will not breed extremism and neo-fundamentalism as a result to the same degree as a less healthy country.

This is not due to either less Muslims or less immigrants. Take Sweden. 20% of their citizens are immigrants (first or second generation) with about 6% being Muslim (Europe's average is about 3% with the UK being just under that). They have nowhere near the same problems as the UK or France. Switzerland's got a 4.2% Muslim population. Of course, the total number has an effect, but with the higher Muslim populations in Sweden, Switzerland etc. and the fact they are similarly developed countries, there is still not the same kind of problem.

The UK should rather face its domestic problems – the misery an alarmingly large portion of your population is living under, the social exclusion and the internal domestic cancer of a divided society – rather than the "Muslim problem” and this silly opposition to veils which, while used in the Middle East as a tool of oppression, in the UK is nearly always an educated choice. But it’s not easy to face the real problems. The roots of evil. So media does its very best to create an easy enemy, a bogeyman, someone looking different and screaming loud… someone to blame, as usual.

[Busy Clippers]

Let's go back to the original topic, the veils. That is the right practice of Islam, and I just don't see how you don't find this oppressive. I support the women's right to wear veils, but it's important to realize what stands behind it - very dangerous views about women's rights, especially sexual ones. Remember that according to Islam (and Judaism, as I mentioned), the men can wear whatever they want - "modesty" only applies to women.

Sorry, but in more orthodox sects of both religions you mentioned the men also have to abide by certain guidelines for dress. They just aren't veiled.

[chica]

You're making dickish statements again. If I concede in this argument, it'll be out of the sheer tedium and frustration involved when teenage-ish liberals start shouting 'Nazi' every time someone criticises a Muslim. I've been friends with Muslims in my life. I have sympathy for the women. Some of the women know they are being oppressed, like one Muslim girl I used to know, who would complain about the fact her father wouldn't let her drive her car alone at night. I've also attended a Muslim wedding. How deep does your knowledge of the Muslim religion run?
You don't have to argue about it. Just read your first post and you'll realize how loudly it shouts "we are better than them". That's what I objected to in the first place.
I know some people who are Muslims. Some of them are religious more than the others. Some women I know wear veils, but only forigners (Muslims who are our citizens generally don't, unless they are very religious). My point is that if you want to make changes, allow people to make their own informed choices. If a young Muslim girl with college education wants to wear veil, so be it! She has her reasons.

[drunken goldfish]

Sorry, but in more orthodox sects of both religions you mentioned the men also have to abide by certain guidelines for dress. They just aren't veiled.

I know. As I said, it's the reasoning that's important. Anyway, this discussion is getting to close to home, I think I'll stand back now.

[Sir Alec]

You're making dickish statements again

You're just being fucking childish now

You just sound like a fourteen year old who's had their first taste of Liberal thought

I can actually see that particular situation in this country escalating dangerously. I fear for the safety of white Britons, as any sane person should.

Anyone so much as voices any criticism of the muslim race, and suddenly, all the goody-goodys pop up and start shouting 'racist!' It's so silly

you shouldn't get involved in debates

Grow up

Hypocrite.

[Sir Alec]

Well, I can assure you that I don't think I'm 'better' than them. What you're accusing me of is religious bigotry and it's very wrong. Some of my best friends both in childhood and adulthood have been Muslims. My problem is with people who use religion to hurt and oppress.

Ahhh yes. You need to make that more clear next time.

[Sir Alec]

Do you have an inferiority complex?

This is my point. You always try to call people names and make them feel bad. If you knew me more from my posts you wouldn't say I have an inferiority complex. Can we not turn this into some pointless name calling argument.

I don't understand why you are so hostile. I agree with you to an extent,

My problem is with people who use religion to hurt and oppress

but I don't argee with your wording


Anyone so much as voices any criticism of the muslim race, and suddenly, all the goody-goodys pop up and start shouting 'racist!' It's so silly

I can actually see that particular situation in this country escalating dangerously. I fear for the safety of white Britons, as any sane person should.

Can we lay down our arms now?

[Pervomartovtsi]

this was a high level debate...theo should have come here a show us his points of view about muslims....again

[Dave]

About the furor, I think some people just always want to be offended. It's just a suggestion and not a new law against the veils. Freedom of religion is a tricky subject always. Certainly many people are not allowed to practice their true beliefs because portions of those beliefs are illegal. I'm talking about polygamy, drug use for religious purposes, and other controversial issues, animal sacrifice among them. Where I live an animal sacrifice occured in a public place by followers of an established religion. It caused a very vocal protest and is no longer allowed publicly. Privately, it probably continues. So you can't kill a pig as part of a funeral ceremony in a public place, but you can kill all the pigs you can afford to buy if it is done for food.
Sorry I'm not wording this that well. My point is that I don't really get involved with other people's superstitions, which is what I consider the veil wearing to be based on. Call it religion or whatever, but it is meaningless to me.
The problem here is being tolerant with people that are intolerant. I don't know the answer to that.
Of course it's true that those that wear veils are literally putting a barrier between themselves and "the rest of us", but I'm not sure whether that barrier has as much to do with the face being hidden as it does with dealing with a person that is making a strong statement that their faith is in a different god thatn that one you may believe in. I honestly would be completely aware that the person wearing the veil had strong beliefs in a religion that to me is superstition, but I feel that same way when someone is vocally "born again". I would still treat them the same way I would anyone else, but I would feel that there were some fundamental differences in our beliefs that would prevent us from being able to communicate openly.

That sort of sounds like what Jack Straw said, so I don't have a problem with it. He might be trying to ride a wave of anti-Muslim resentment to greater political success, but he might just be speaking his honest opinion and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. At least he is creating an opportunity for discussion.

[Puddle]

The funny story was:

The side of my family that is of Polish/German heritage served in the American army and fought against the German members of our family still in Germany during WWII.

Funny?


you call that funny...my hitler funny family story is better. My grandparents grew up in separate, small villages about 25 miles apart in poland...which is fairly far those days--meaning the likelihood of them meeting is slim. Until hitler came rolling into town. eventually both were captured and taken to the same labor camp. there they met, fell in love, and after the war married. You know the rest, eventually i was born. So yes, i owe my life to Hitler...funny!! right.. i mean it's twisted, but funny.

also.
joroberts...you are right that nowhere in the koran does it say women need to cover themselves, but this perverse rule comes from the fact that Mohammed didn’t allow his wives to leave the house. and the doorway to their house was covered by a curtain. thus how the veil originated. it resembles the curtain. either way. it's oppressive. and very much outdated and contradictory to the values the human race has come to embrace in the modern world.

Furthermore, I think I am in love with you joroberts17.

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

jack straw, dont know who he is
but man, does that dude have cool name!
:D

[Inttenssity]

Furthermore, I think I am in love with you joroberts17.

Well, from the standpoint of this board, you won't be in any competition with anyone else. Your chances could be good.

[chica]

Well, from the standpoint of this board, you won't be in any competition with anyone else. Your chances could be good.
I wanted to disagree. :D

However, please go on talking about the treatment of women in fundamental religions (notice I didn't say Islam!)

[Poco Innocente]

I think Muslim women should be allowed to wear their veils as and when they wish, however, I don’t agree with them being able to wear them in schools for example. I agree with the sacking of the Muslim teacher who refused to unveil; the face is a vital part of communication. As a young child I certainly wouldn’t have felt comfortable with my teacher wearing a veil.

As for integration, it is important. The UK is a clear example of the failure of multiculturalism. Yes it is important to respect other religions and cultures, but if people settle here then they should make an effort when and where possible to integrate into society. That certainly doesn’t mean abandoning their faith or cultural values; it just means the acceptance of some of ours. How in any way have faith schools helped generations of young people to be tolerant of other cultures, whether you are Christian or Muslim? – It merely promotes segregation.

For instance if a young Christian or atheist woman went to teach abroad in a Muslim school, I can understand that schools requirement for her to wear a veil. Doesn’t mean I agree with it, but it’s a case of accepting their cultural/religious beliefs.

I think Britain is very tolerant of different cultures/religions and in recent years it has almost come full circle and bitten Christians on the bum. The BA necklace incident is just one example.

[Theo]

I totally agree that forced wearing of the veil is opression, but in the West, I think you'll find that the vast majority of women choose to wear it. Where is the opression in freedom of choice?


Where do you get that from? Immigrant Muslim women in the West suffer all kinds of oppression from Muslim men. The women's shelters in some European countries are literally filled with Muslim women. Muslim men keep countless Muslim women as uneducated, ignorant slaves, locked away to spit out baby after baby with no opportunities to be individuals with their own dreams and desires. Honor killings are happening all the time in the West. There are whole sections of Europe where it is basically the mentality of the Islamic-fundamentalist Middle East. In otherwise free Western European countries there are entire sections of cities that are not free because they are run by insane Muslims.

Just the other month the leading Muslim male leader in Australia, Sheikh Taj El Din al-Hilaly, basically said that women who are uncovered are "raw meat" and if they get gang raped it is their fault. This is not just an insult to women, it is an insult to men as well. It is an insult to all of humanity and civilization, yet it is supported by millions upon millions of Muslim men. The deranged Muslim thinking must be condemned until they finally feel ashamed enough to reform their twisted religious views. Women are not cattle to be bought, sold, and traded. You'd think in the 21st century even Muslims would understand that, but no. That culture and death cult is a 1,000 years behind civilization.

I liked Jack Straw;s comments.

People should read the below book. So many people fancy themselves as "feminists" yet they are completely silent to the fact that countless millions of women in Islam are in slavery. Hirsi Ali had to flee Europe for the USA because she tried to help Muslim women in Holland and this made her a target for death.

http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/0743288335.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V39376491_.jpg

[Theo]

I agree with the sacking of the Muslim teacher who refused to unveil; the face is a vital part of communication.


Yeah. Can you imagine sitting in a classroom and the teacher walks in wearing a completely ridiculous full veil over her face? It's fucking insane in the membrain.

[drunken goldfish]

So many people fancy themselves as "feminists" yet they are completely silent to the fact that countless millions of women in Islam are in slavery.

Couldn't agree more. I wonder how many people know of "honor killings" you mentioned, for instance. Earlier in the thread I compared the oppression of women in Islam to that in Judaism, and while both are appaling, Islam is far worse. I will never understand a value system where a woman having sex before marriage offends the family's honor, but for her own father or brother to kill her saves it. *disgusted*

[left out]

I think any system of belief that enhances a person's enjoyment of life and who they are is good. For some this is in religion. However, the basic premise of many religions, "love yourself and love others" is hijacked by cultural and political agendas in most cases.These corrupt the motivating ideals and subjugate people to restrictive "religious" practices, causing them to loathe themselves and others for simply being human and having natural human thoughts and desires.

I'd rather not look too closely at theological intricacies but rather ask "does this belief increase my understanding of existence and bring hapiness to the people that practice it" ?

[left out]

To finish.....I had to answer the door..............

If the beliefs you hold cause you to dislike yourself- don't try to change your habits, change your beliefs!
You won't go to hell because, to me, Hell is NOT loving who you are, something Morrissey's lyrics amply illustrate..

Enjoy! :)

[chica]

Bump! :D

http://jesusandmo.net/strips/2007-02-22.jpg

[Theo]

That got your attention. So, what's... your... opinion?


I find it outrageous that Ayaan Hirsi Ali immigrated to Holland and attempted to help women oppressed and brutalized by Islam in Holland and, for that, the director of her film about women and Islam - Theo van Gogh - got barbarically assasinated and she ultimately was the one who had to flee the country, and is living to this day with bodyguards to keep her alive.

[gentle kind]

Jack Straw is my Member of Parliament and I live and work within his constituency which as you may know has a high percentage of people from south east Asian origin. My job as a health professional and my statutory obligation through my codes of professional practice require me to be an advocate for the women in my care. All the women I have spoken to have chosen to wear the Hijab of their own free will as a symbol of modesty and are more than happy to remove them whilst in female company. It is their right to wear it, as is their right to request female doctors and to wear their hijab when in male company. I have even accompanied women into the operating theatre for an emergency procedure and enable the woman to maintain her dignity in wearing her hijab.

I can't believe (or maybe I can) that Jack Straw should make such inflamatory and racist comments that will alienate a large part of his constituency and divide peoples views further. As I have already posted in antother thread this morning, we should be looking to unite humanity by recognising our similarites and not concentrating on our differences.