The flaw in Morrissey...

[Andrew]

How sad it is that Morrissey does not appear to have showered love upon anyone, at least not that we know of. I nearly froze to death inside a collapsed snow cave in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. Before being located and dug out, I prepared to die by thinking warmly about my wife, and how much happiness we gave each other. I would have died with her on my mind. Since surviving, I realized that sharing love with someone is the ultimate truth - or purpose - of our existence. And people who do not partake in it are unknowingly living a flawed life.

Andrew

[Dear Old Naughty Blighty]

No, no, how sad that someone could think that love is the purpose of human existence. Don't you ever read books? You ought to. Philosophers have pondered the question of existence for years and none of the good ones (any of the bad ones?) have come up with LOVE! How silly. Just because you almost froze and such doesn't mean you have been handed the answer to life's question!

Besides, if Morrissey loved someone, I somehow don't think he would be the man we all know and... like.

> How sad it is that Morrissey does not appear to have showered
> love upon anyone, at least not that we know of. I nearly froze
> to death inside a collapsed snow cave in the Sierra Nevada
> Mountains. Before being located and dug out, I prepared to die
> by thinking warmly about my wife, and how much happiness we gave
> each other. I would have died with her on my mind. Since
> surviving, I realized that sharing love with someone is the
> ultimate truth - or purpose - of our existence. And people who
> do not partake in it are unknowingly living a flawed life.

> Andrew

[KarenKoz]

> How sad it is that Morrissey does not appear to have showered
> love upon anyone, at least not that we know of. I nearly froze

I think that he has showered love upon many people over his lifetime so far. I think he just preffers to keep it to himself. =)

Karen

[Mimi]

> How sad it is that Morrissey does not appear to have showered
> love upon anyone, at least not that we know of. I nearly froze
> to death inside a collapsed snow cave in the Sierra Nevada
> Mountains. Before being located and dug out, I prepared to die
> by thinking warmly about my wife, and how much happiness we gave
> each other. I would have died with her on my mind. Since
> surviving, I realized that sharing love with someone is the
> ultimate truth - or purpose - of our existence. And people who
> do not partake in it are unknowingly living a flawed life.

Well but ultimately you could argue that the way he showered love on all of us makes up for that....

[suzanne]

> Well but ultimately you could argue that the way he showered
> love on all of us makes up for that....

he provides loads of happiness to many people....all at $15.99....or $8.99 if it's Kill Uncle. I personally like paying more for more happiness at live shows. The more money you spend, the more likelihood that you can meet him in person and thus being incredibly happy.

personally, when i'm about to die, i plan on being a too incoherently babbling mess to be thinking of anything specific.

you know, mimi, you've got to be careful showing your pic around here. You get the attention of such lovely leches such as Mud.


my song (http://home1.gte.net/suzsch/subdirectory/onval.ram)

[nhon]

[Mimi]

> you know, mimi, you've got to be careful showing your pic around
> here. You get the attention of such lovely leches such as Mud.

Yeah weird...what was all that about?? But then you get used to certain things being a girl in your 20ies, don't you?

OH and I agree with the shows - those that I have seen are stuck in my memory as the happiest moments of my life. And I'm not exaggerating.

Me loves Morrissey loads..... So how can anyone claim he's not showered with love? He's one of the most loved people ever I suppose.

[The GlamGod]

> Well but ultimately you could argue that the way he showered
> love on all of us makes up for that....

I have got through the seeling after reading this!

You go, maaaan!

The GlamGod

[suzanne]

> Yeah weird...what was all that about?? But then you get used to
> certain things being a girl in your 20ies, don't you?

oh great.

Be old and have nobody hit on you, but have peace in exchange.
Be young and have the psychos running after you and maybe one of them is dateable, but you aren't sure because you've met too many fruitcakes.

I feel happier already.

> OH and I agree with the shows - those that I have seen are stuck
> in my memory as the happiest moments of my life. And I'm not
> exaggerating.

i'm a pessimist: the moment after they end are the saddest moments...

> Me loves Morrissey loads..... So how can anyone claim he's not
> showered with love? He's one of the most loved people ever I
> suppose.

he's a great looking guy, but the thing I like the most about him is his unpredictability. 98% of guys, you already know what they're going to say even before they come up to you, but with him, you're still trying to figure out what he said long after he left.

[hnia]

> I think that he has showered love upon many people over his
> lifetime so far. I think he just preffers to keep it to himself.
> =)

> Karen

That would seem more resonable, but this is morrissey remember?

Of course there's always the "now my heart is full" debate...

ejw

[KarenKoz]

> That would seem more resonable, but this is morrissey remember?

The same Morrissey who has managed to keep his sexual preferance, and his lovelife to himeself for the most part. = )

> Of course there's always the "now my heart is full"
> debate...

> ejw

Please continue.....

Karen

[The GlamGod]

> The same Morrissey who has managed to keep his sexual
> preferance, and his lovelife to himeself for the most part. = )

> Please continue.....

> Karen

You confused me for a while - I thought you were talking about that horrid fashion designer Peter Morrissey (no relation either).

The fashion designed is not human, and does not deserve to be loved - the misogynist bastard. Unlike our very speakable idol on here.

The GlamGod

[KarenKoz]

> You confused me for a while - I thought you were talking about
> that horrid fashion designer Peter Morrissey (no relation
> either).

> The fashion designed is not human, and does not deserve to be
> loved - the misogynist bastard. Unlike our very speakable idol
> on here.

> The GlamGod

The only Morrissey that I'm reffering to is the Morrissey that this website is based around, I don't know who you're talking about.
As for Moz = ) he's not my idol, just an artist that I respect, that I would love to speak with one day.

Karen

[Mimi]

> Be old and have nobody hit on you, but have peace in exchange.
> Be young and have the psychos running after you and maybe one of
> them is dateable, but you aren't sure because you've met too
> many fruitcakes.

But that's the way it goes isn't it???? One (well, a girl that is ) has to go through the struggle of kissing a million frogs to find half a prince....

> i'm a pessimist: the moment after they end are the saddest
> moments...

That's true also - but that was part of the appeal: the sheer intensity of emotion, whether it be drama, passion or happiness was something I'd never found anywhere else. SAd but true.

> he's a great looking guy, but the thing I like the most about
> him is his unpredictability. 98% of guys, you already know what
> they're going to say even before they come up to you, but with
> him, you're still trying to figure out what he said long after
> he left.

I think I'm beyond fancying him which certainly wasn't the case all the time...... It's weird.

But with his wit and originality I'm quite surprised he isn't off pulling birds (of both sexes) all the time. I bet he'd be quite a show and if only he'd manage to leave the house he could be quite popular :-)

[suzanne]

> But that's the way it goes isn't it???? One (well, a girl that
> is ) has to go through the struggle of kissing a million frogs
> to find half a prince....

Oh God.

The saddest part is that you don't know if they are going to turn back into frogs.

It's like, "hey, this guy is great!"

and you go out with him and after a couple of years find out what a moron he is, and then you complain and your friends say, "we didn't want to say anything, but...."

and you are like, "eww! I wasted all this time on this bastard!"

Then you start thinking of the things he did in the past and you are like, "hey, he was doing this all along! Where did I go wrong!?!?"

I suppose it's a rite of passage that most people are going to have a fiance before the fiance they actually marry.

> That's true also - but that was part of the appeal: the sheer
> intensity of emotion, whether it be drama, passion or happiness
> was something I'd never found anywhere else. SAd but true.

I personally like seeing what ideas he's stolen and put to good use.

like the elvis suit...
but that is one of the more BLATANT examples I'm willing to list.

> I think I'm beyond fancying him which certainly wasn't the case
> all the time...... It's weird.

he's such a nice looking guy that you don't mind that he's not going to return the favor.

> But with his wit and originality I'm quite surprised he isn't
> off pulling birds (of both sexes) all the time. I bet he'd be
> quite a show and if only he'd manage to leave the house he could
> be quite popular :-)

Well, I'm sure he could be pulling certain birds if he dared....

but would we like him if he was suddenly the most popular guy in town? how would most fans feel? happy that he was able to overcome, or betrayed because the cool member of the group sold out?

[Mimi]

> Oh God.

> The saddest part is that you don't know if they are going to
> turn back into frogs.

> It's like, "hey, this guy is great!"

> and you go out with him and after a couple of years

YEARS?????? God no - so far it always took me less than four weeks to find out ....

> what a moron he is, and then you complain and your friends say,
> "we didn't want to say anything, but...."

> and you are like, "eww! I wasted all this time on this
> bastard!"

> Then you start thinking of the things he did in the past and you
> are like, "hey, he was doing this all along! Where did I go
> wrong!?!?"

> I suppose it's a rite of passage that most people are going to
> have a fiance before the fiance they actually marry.

Oh bugger I'm not doing well then...... I haven't even come across the first yet - that's annoying considering I'll be officially approaching 30 in a few weeks time (note I have a slight problem with ageing :-) )

> I personally like seeing what ideas he's stolen and put to good
> use.

> like the elvis suit...
> but that is one of the more BLATANT examples I'm willing to
> list.

> he's such a nice looking guy that you don't mind that he's not
> going to return the favor.

A friend who met him told me he's got the most amazing blue eyes she'd ever seen and that's not exaggerated - all pictures just don't do these eyes justice...

> Well, I'm sure he could be pulling certain birds if he dared....

> but would we like him if he was suddenly the most popular guy in
> town? how would most fans feel? happy that he was able to
> overcome, or betrayed because the cool member of the group sold
> out?

NO of course not - but since it's all theory and won't ever happen anyway unless the sun starts circling around the earth I just had to say it :-)

[suzanne]

> YEARS?????? God no - so far it always took me less than four
> weeks to find out ....

you may not be SLOW like some people I know.

they give me no hope. I keep thinking there is this mystery cloud out there that blocks electrical pulses to your legs and keeps you from running like hell in the other direction. and you become really dumb and waste vast quantities of your time, and before you know it, you're on Judge Joe Brown trying to get back the thousands that he "borrowed" to buy a brand new motorcycle and promised to pay back as soon as he found a job, but not before he discovered the joys of your best friend.

hell, i haven't either. But you know something? I'm Ok. I don't really see how i'd make a good wife to most people anyway.

"what? didn't I just see you this morning? I see you about once a day! what are you complaining about?"

> A friend who met him told me he's got the most amazing blue eyes
> she'd ever seen and that's not exaggerated - all pictures just
> don't do these eyes justice...

probably, but I'll never know.

> NO of course not - but since it's all theory and won't ever
> happen anyway unless the sun starts circling around the earth I
> just had to say it :-)

heh.

if you're like me, you prefer your earth nice and flat.

[Mimi]

> you may not be SLOW like some people I know.

> they give me no hope. I keep thinking there is this mystery
> cloud out there that blocks electrical pulses to your legs and
> keeps you from running like hell in the other direction. and you
> become really dumb and waste vast quantities of your time, and
> before you know it, you're on Judge Joe Brown trying to get back
> the thousands that he "borrowed" to buy a brand new
> motorcycle and promised to pay back as soon as he found a job,
> but not before he discovered the joys of your best friend.

> hell, i haven't either. But you know something? I'm Ok. I don't
> really see how i'd make a good wife to most people anyway.

OH I would! I'd be a great wife, well, provided my husband earns enough money to pay a cleaner.....

Somehow a lot of what you write sounds very close to home and not at all fictional.

> "what? didn't I just see you this morning? I see you about
> once a day! what are you complaining about?"

> probably, but I'll never know.

> heh.

> if you're like me, you prefer your earth nice and flat.

Well it's obvious isn't it? I mean you can clearly see that the earth is flat or does it look round to you? I don't know what people are on about.....

[suzanne]

> OH I would! I'd be a great wife, well, provided my husband earns
> enough money to pay a cleaner.....

what? husband earn money?!?!? for you?!?!?

didn't you read the book angela's ashes? be glad that you can hold a job.

> Somehow a lot of what you write sounds very close to home and
> not at all fictional.

no, i watch plenty of judge joe brown.

> Well it's obvious isn't it? I mean you can clearly see that the
> earth is flat or does it look round to you? I don't know what
> people are on about.....

yes, it just doesnt' make sense. If this is true, i should be perpetually leaning to one side because round things are very uneven to stand on.

then again, maybe that's why god made one of my legs shorter than the other....

[An Klestar]

I think Morrissey KNOWS he's living a flawed life (well ... what DO we know, really??). Supppose he is ... do you imply that, because it's flawed, it's rubbish?

Life could indeed be friendlier, but when it's not, it's not. Or is it a mistake to hope?

Cheers,
AK

> How sad it is that Morrissey does not appear to have showered
> love upon anyone, at least not that we know of. I nearly froze
> to death inside a collapsed snow cave in the Sierra Nevada
> Mountains. Before being located and dug out, I prepared to die
> by thinking warmly about my wife, and how much happiness we gave
> each other. I would have died with her on my mind. Since
> surviving, I realized that sharing love with someone is the
> ultimate truth - or purpose - of our existence. And people who
> do not partake in it are unknowingly living a flawed life.

> Andrew

[constantin constantius]

. Since
> surviving, I realized that sharing love with someone is the
> ultimate truth - or purpose - of our existence. And people who
> do not partake in it are unknowingly living a flawed life.

> Andrew

the meaning of existence is the making of moral choices,it is a pepetual either-or. it is only when a life is goverened by its conscience and not by its desires - sexual or otherwise - is a life a fully adult and human one.

[Rose]

> . Since

> the meaning of existence is the making of moral choices,it is a
> pepetual either-or. it is only when a life is goverened by its
> conscience and not by its desires - sexual or otherwise - is a
> life a fully adult and human one.

but is that necessarily a happy one?

[Somny]

> How sad it is that Morrissey does not appear to have showered
> love upon anyone, at least not that we know of.

I have read an old interview here on morrissey-solo (1999, if i'm not wrong), where he mentioned something about haveing a person in his life.
I nearly froze
> to death inside a collapsed snow cave in the Sierra Nevada
> Mountains. Before being located and dug out, I prepared to die
> by thinking warmly about my wife, and how much happiness we gave
> each other.
A touching moment, for sure. But you don't need to have a wife, boyfriend, etc... to show your love. And I honestlly don't believe that kind of releatioship is welcome for lots of us.

I would have died with her on my mind. Since
> surviving, I realized that sharing love with someone is the
> ultimate truth - or purpose - of our existence. And people who
> do not partake in it are unknowingly living a flawed life.

But Morrissey, as an artist, gave a lot of love. When I saw him last year, I felt amazed and impressed to see how enigmatic is his "persona". He was happy, smiling, and shared his love with us, but during some moments he became very cold and distant. He has the music to express his feelings. Besides, we know almost nothing about his personal life.

> Andrew

[Mimi]

> what? husband earn money?!?!? for you?!?!?

> didn't you read the book angela's ashes? be glad that you can
> hold a job.

Yeah of course earn money for me!!! What else would you get married for??? You see if I had a job I actually enjoy I probably wouldn't be bothered.... but as long as it's all typing, cleaning, selling, driving and other crap I'd really appreciate someone stepping in the tredmill for me.

If you ever had the impression I was liberated you know better now, hehe..... I just have a big mouth.

> yes, it just doesnt' make sense. If this is true, i should be
> perpetually leaning to one side because round things are very
> uneven to stand on.

And it still is, isn't it?? Standing up straight makes me feel really odd, like it's not meant to be that way....now we know why.

Look at us - crushing Galileo in two paragraphs.....

> then again, maybe that's why god made one of my legs shorter
> than the other....

He did that because he's twisted and into sick jokes....

[suzanne]

> Yeah of course earn money for me!!! What else would you get
> married for??? You see if I had a job I actually enjoy I
> probably wouldn't be bothered.... but as long as it's all
> typing, cleaning, selling, driving and other crap I'd really
> appreciate someone stepping in the tredmill for me.

I know, I work a crappy job, too, but how do you go out and meet people otherwise?

I go nuts being around the house for long periods of time, and it's not like most of the time when you marry that your husband is a billionaire and you are able to jet set off to the country club in Hong Kong. And, as a person who once had a job with odd hours where I never saw anyone on the weekdays I was off, I can guarantee you that there will be lots of lonely times of sitting around the house with nothing to do and no one to see.

I just don't see the appeal of that.

> If you ever had the impression I was liberated you know better
> now, hehe..... I just have a big mouth.

well, to each their own. but to me, lots of the older people I have seen who have been living at home for 20 some-odd years with nothing better to do are a bit more neurotic and nervous than the ones who are out of the house and doing something.

> And it still is, isn't it?? Standing up straight makes me feel
> really odd, like it's not meant to be that way....now we know
> why.

> Look at us - crushing Galileo in two paragraphs.....

> He did that because he's twisted and into sick jokes....

I personally refer to the ancient greeks who came up with this stuff first, but it was conveniently brushed away by the roman church.

[Mimi]

> I know, I work a crappy job, too, but how do you go out and meet
> people otherwise?

What's so great about meeting people??? I mean most people.... My current job is a primary example: I spend a precious eight hours of my day with people I wouldn't even talk to if I had the choice. Not because their not my class or style, but because we have nothing whatsoever to share.... But I HAVE to deal with them because..well.... I just have!

> I go nuts being around the house for long periods of time, and
> it's not like most of the time when you marry that your husband
> is a billionaire and you are able to jet set off to the country
> club in Hong Kong. And, as a person who once had a job with odd
> hours where I never saw anyone on the weekdays I was off, I can
> guarantee you that there will be lots of lonely times of sitting
> around the house with nothing to do and no one to see.

Well I'm quite different in that..... My most valuable time is always spent at home. Or well - travelling, but I can't do that all the time for obvious reasons being of financial nature. But I honestly love being at home, and I love being by myself aswell. I have my music, my books, my computer and the telephone. The people that mean something to me are easily counted on two hands and to get to see them matters to me much more than going out meeting new people. I exclude meeting friends and family from "meeting people" because it's a whole different story.

> well, to each their own. but to me, lots of the older people I
> have seen who have been living at home for 20 some-odd years
> with nothing better to do are a bit more neurotic and nervous
> than the ones who are out of the house and doing something.

As stated before, it's what you do not where you do it.... of course to each their own, but I must admit I know just as many people who at a certain age realise they've wasted most of their lives on doing stuff they didn't really want to do or that wasn't good for them, just for the sake of doing "something". Well some people need to be stimulated by the outside world to develop and others find all they need inside. For myself I guess I'm somewhere in the middle.

Don't get me wrong I'm not as much of a couch potatoe as it may sound here..... I'm out and about quite a bit but I've learned to set preferences with time. "Going out" and then meeting people I can't communicate with and having to play a role leaves me feeling very burnt out so recently I've tried to reduce it to few but precious moments.

[suzanne]

> What's so great about meeting people??? I mean most people....
> My current job is a primary example: I spend a precious eight
> hours of my day with people I wouldn't even talk to if I had the
> choice. Not because their not my class or style, but because we
> have nothing whatsoever to share.... But I HAVE to deal with
> them because..well.... I just have!

The people I work with in my office don't like me one bit. I get blantantly left out of things, and they don't care if I know about it. I still get along with the people in the old department I worked in. I go and visit them a lot. I wish sometimes I could go and work with them again.

But I do occasionally meet some cool people to hang out with. I admit I'm bad at people meeting and am therefore a bit thankful that I do have a situation where I can take a while to get to know them, and it's not a bar, or a large but vague group of "friends of friends" that they try and maybe set you up with or you could meet at their parties, but you just dont like them that much because although your friends may be cool, it's not cool dating their male counterparts.

And they're weird. Like this one guy who has been "trying" to ask me out for a few months. And it's always at a party where he is drunk and gets incredibly pushy in demanding an answer (because he starts looking at all the other people who have hooked up and feels left out and remembers I'm still standing there single), and I don't know what to say because its like I still have to see him in the future no matter what....I just wish he would drop it.

> Well I'm quite different in that..... My most valuable time is
> always spent at home. Or well - travelling, but I can't do that
> all the time for obvious reasons being of financial nature. But
> I honestly love being at home, and I love being by myself
> aswell. I have my music, my books, my computer and the
> telephone. The people that mean something to me are easily
> counted on two hands and to get to see them matters to me much
> more than going out meeting new people. I exclude meeting
> friends and family from "meeting people" because it's
> a whole different story.

I like being alone for short periods of time, but after a couple of days at staring at the walls, it gets really tiresome. especially when you start thinking how this could be the pattern for the rest of your life.

Is this all I'm ever going to have?

And then when you dont meet people, you become way too fixated on your family and drive them insane. They become insecure and malfunctioning adults.

> As stated before, it's what you do not where you do it.... of
> course to each their own, but I must admit I know just as many
> people who at a certain age realise they've wasted most of their
> lives on doing stuff they didn't really want to do or that
> wasn't good for them, just for the sake of doing
> "something". Well some people need to be stimulated by
> the outside world to develop and others find all they need
> inside. For myself I guess I'm somewhere in the middle.

But aren't you relying on too little to be everything for you?

> Don't get me wrong I'm not as much of a couch potatoe as it may
> sound here..... I'm out and about quite a bit but I've learned
> to set preferences with time. "Going out" and then
> meeting people I can't communicate with and having to play a
> role leaves me feeling very burnt out so recently I've tried to
> reduce it to few but precious moments.

As I said, you sound like you would be relying too much on your husband to provide a steady stream of entertainment because you don't "like anyone"

Well, obviously a good chunk of marriages end after a couple of years. I don't think you would want to be in a situation where you are trying to rebuild yourself with absolutely nobody around.

Too many women sit around and do nothing but take care of their husbands or boyfriends. They lose all their friends, and then if or when the marriage falls apart, the only person who cared for them is now gone. They don't have a job, any friends, and now they've gone from this completely sheltered and pampered existance to being thrown into the role of being the sole provider.

I can't help but see that as a losing situation.

[Mimi]

> The people I work with in my office don't like me one bit. I get
> blantantly left out of things, and they don't care if I know
> about it. I still get along with the people in the old
> department I worked in. I go and visit them a lot. I wish
> sometimes I could go and work with them again.

Well with me it's quite the same, but since I don't like them either I'm quite happy they leave me alone.... I get paid for working for Christs sake and not for responding to stupid and utterly unfunny jokes.

> But I do occasionally meet some cool people to hang out with. I
> admit I'm bad at people meeting and am therefore a bit thankful
> that I do have a situation where I can take a while to get to
> know them, and it's not a bar, or a large but vague group of
> "friends of friends" that they try and maybe set you
> up with or you could meet at their parties, but you just dont
> like them that much because although your friends may be cool,
> it's not cool dating their male counterparts.

Yes I agree with that, if it's a comfortable relaxed atmosphere I don't mind meeting new people aswell....it's the picking up in clubs and bars that makes me feel quite under pressure sometimes. But when I'm in the mood I can even do that. But it gets less and less the older I get.

> And they're weird. Like this one guy who has been
> "trying" to ask me out for a few months. And it's
> always at a party where he is drunk and gets incredibly pushy in
> demanding an answer (because he starts looking at all the other
> people who have hooked up and feels left out and remembers I'm
> still standing there single), and I don't know what to say
> because its like I still have to see him in the future no matter
> what....I just wish he would drop it.

Just be cold and nasty in turns and he'll eventually get it.....

> I like being alone for short periods of time, but after a couple
> of days at staring at the walls, it gets really tiresome.
> especially when you start thinking how this could be the pattern
> for the rest of your life.

> Is this all I'm ever going to have?

Well that'S not good.... but as I said I'm different in that, I don't get bored. I always find stuff to do. I spent all Sunday working on my horoscopes for instance.

> And then when you dont meet people, you become way too fixated
> on your family and drive them insane. They become insecure and
> malfunctioning adults.

My family live miles away so that's out of the window... it's quite the opposite, they drive me mad because they call me an average three times a week to find out whether I'm alright because I "played dead".

> But aren't you relying on too little to be everything for you?

I don't think so.... I've tried quite a few different ways of living and entertaining myself and recently I've started to assemble the quintessence of that. But I never say never - whatever I feel comfortable with at a certain time is right for me so if from tomorrow on I should feel like being out 24/7 and establishing a massively exciting social life then that's what I'll do.

> As I said, you sound like you would be relying too much on your
> husband to provide a steady stream of entertainment because you
> don't "like anyone"

> Well, obviously a good chunk of marriages end after a couple of
> years. I don't think you would want to be in a situation where
> you are trying to rebuild yourself with absolutely nobody
> around.

> Too many women sit around and do nothing but take care of their
> husbands or boyfriends. They lose all their friends, and then if
> or when the marriage falls apart, the only person who cared for
> them is now gone. They don't have a job, any friends, and now
> they've gone from this completely sheltered and pampered
> existance to being thrown into the role of being the sole
> provider.

> I can't help but see that as a losing situation.

I think this husband issue got out of hand a bit - it was just something I said which wasn't even meant so serious. Believe me I'm not the type to stay at home and do my nails while waiting for my husband to come home. However much I hate labour work I do very much enjoy taking care of myself and I intend to do that however long I can. Actually - if I had a real piece of salty goodness to come home to I'd gladly work a ten hour shift every day so HE can stay home and do his nails!! =) (And entertain me when I get home from my busy day...). But I've done fine without building my world around a man for all my life so I don't think I'll ever really start that. It's just not in my nature. I'm an Aquarian you know.

At the end of the day this is all theory - I've never been married so who knows how I will behave if it should happen.... Maybe nothing will change or my urge for independence will become even greater or I will turn into some strange mother earth character. Mind you I have quite a vivid mother instinct, but one thing's certain, I will never enjoy housework. Whatever will happen one thing's for sure though: my nails will ALWAYS look great regardless of the circumstances.

[suzanne]

> Well with me it's quite the same, but since I don't like them
> either I'm quite happy they leave me alone.... I get paid for
> working for Christs sake and not for responding to stupid and
> utterly unfunny jokes.

my group is very...childish. They are supposedly in their 30's, but in many ways they act more socially retarded than the 20 somethings I used to work with.

Like for example, on friday a few of us were standing in the hallway to "surprise" a woman for her 50th birthday. My boss being included in that mix, and she was asking the couple of other people around me if they were going to the party that night and if they were looking forward to it. This was the first mention I had heard of a party, and she pointedly did not ask me so I wonder if she was intentionally trying to rub it in.

She hates me for some reason.

Here this woman is somewhere around the age of 38 and acting like she is 12. People wonder where children learn this stuff from, and it's hard to wonder if their parents do the exact same thing.

> Yes I agree with that, if it's a comfortable relaxed atmosphere
> I don't mind meeting new people aswell....it's the picking up in
> clubs and bars that makes me feel quite under pressure
> sometimes. But when I'm in the mood I can even do that. But it
> gets less and less the older I get.

Oh, I can't even do that.

Maybe you hang out in a city that doesn't have to sort of horrid meat market ours does. My friends invited some of them to the luau. This one guy supposedly had a crush on this one girl for several weeks, but when she gave him the cold shoulder, he went sniffing around (and even came around me a few times) until he found some other girl who would let him feel her up.

> Just be cold and nasty in turns and he'll eventually get it.....

Yes, well it turned out that HE ended up with the girl that the loser I described above had a crush on. She's as bad as he is.

I would try and even talk to a couple of guys I hadn't seen in months, but attention starved girls who already had boyfriends decided they wanted to go into "pay attention to me!" mode and would be incredibly rude and squeeze themselves in like I completely didn't exist.

So, you ask, what did Suzanne do the entire night? She located the gay male friend and had a gossip-a-thon.

> Well that'S not good.... but as I said I'm different in that, I
> don't get bored. I always find stuff to do. I spent all Sunday
> working on my horoscopes for instance.

sometimes its good because it gets me bored enough to maybe write a song or try something new.

> My family live miles away so that's out of the window... it's
> quite the opposite, they drive me mad because they call me an
> average three times a week to find out whether I'm alright
> because I "played dead".

heh...well, mine know I will show up eventually. sometimes they call before then.

> I don't think so.... I've tried quite a few different ways of
> living and entertaining myself and recently I've started to
> assemble the quintessence of that. But I never say never -
> whatever I feel comfortable with at a certain time is right for
> me so if from tomorrow on I should feel like being out 24/7 and
> establishing a massively exciting social life then that's what
> I'll do.

> I think this husband issue got out of hand a bit - it was just
> something I said which wasn't even meant so serious. Believe me
> I'm not the type to stay at home and do my nails while waiting
> for my husband to come home. However much I hate labour work I
> do very much enjoy taking care of myself and I intend to do that
> however long I can. Actually - if I had a real piece of salty
> goodness to come home to I'd gladly work a ten hour shift every
> day so HE can stay home and do his nails!! =) (And entertain me
> when I get home from my busy day...). But I've done fine without
> building my world around a man for all my life so I don't think
> I'll ever really start that. It's just not in my nature. I'm an
> Aquarian you know.

well, you seemed to be putting up enough of a fight about it to make it sound like you were serious.

> At the end of the day this is all theory - I've never been
> married so who knows how I will behave if it should happen....
> Maybe nothing will change or my urge for independence will
> become even greater or I will turn into some strange mother
> earth character. Mind you I have quite a vivid mother instinct,
> but one thing's certain, I will never enjoy housework. Whatever
> will happen one thing's for sure though: my nails will ALWAYS
> look great regardless of the circumstances.

I have no plans for anything. Things could finally change, and I might be able to meet that special someone, but I'm not even close and I'm 26.

[greasetea]

$hitzanne, you will die alone and in a puddle of your own urine. That's not so bad though, no stupid husbands or tupperware parties to attend, no dumb suburban wives gossip group to attend..best of all, you're dead. Yippppppeeeeee! Want to see my so-called SUV? It matches my so-called Polo White Buttondown shirt and my so-called Faranzi sports jacket. I'll run you over with it so you can end your miserable (to you) life.

Quit bitching and pretending to make your life as bad as it seems. You're poor as me failed artist forte is a cliche and besides you are a failure anyhow.

[suzanne]

> $hitzanne, you will die alone and in a puddle of your own urine.
> That's not so bad though, no stupid husbands or tupperware
> parties to attend, no dumb suburban wives gossip group to
> attend..best of all, you're dead. Yippppppeeeeee! Want to see my
> so-called SUV? It matches my so-called Polo White Buttondown
> shirt and my so-called Faranzi sports jacket. I'll run you over
> with it so you can end your miserable (to you) life.

> Quit bitching and pretending to make your life as bad as it
> seems. You're poor as me failed artist forte is a cliche and
> besides you are a failure anyhow.

a failure who isn't miserable? how does that happen?

[Cinderella]

Mimi likes MEN...ewww!

Oh yes she does, she told me, she had no shame about it either, I was shocked and appalled.

But on a slightly more ridiculous if not sensible note...when you look like Mimi why should you have to make your own money, it's kinda tiring having to look and be that good ALL THE FUGGIN TIME never mind hold down a job on top of being brilliant...now that's not only down right tiring but if at all avoidable, it's down right stuuupid to boot!

Let's face it, in this life you gotta go with what you got, and like a tranny once said to my friend Simon "if you've got - it flaunt it, if you haven't got it - flaunt it even more"

I must go now for father is hiding in the loft again.

[Mimi]

> my group is very...childish. They are supposedly in their 30's,
> but in many ways they act more socially retarded than the 20
> somethings I used to work with.

> Like for example, on friday a few of us were standing in the
> hallway to "surprise" a woman for her 50th birthday.
> My boss being included in that mix, and she was asking the
> couple of other people around me if they were going to the party
> that night and if they were looking forward to it. This was the
> first mention I had heard of a party, and she pointedly did not
> ask me so I wonder if she was intentionally trying to rub it in.

Question is, did she succeed?? You really should't care whether those people like you or not.....and realistically I don't think you do. Maybe it's easy to say for me because I know mine is only going to be a temporary job anyway...but still, why play a role?

> Oh, I can't even do that.

It happens quite rarely.... but on the right day combined with a few drinks I can turn into quite a party animal.... with the usual "God-what did I do last night" feeling of embarrassment the next morning.

> Maybe you hang out in a city that doesn't have to sort of horrid
> meat market ours does. My friends invited some of them to the
> luau. This one guy supposedly had a crush on this one girl for
> several weeks, but when she gave him the cold shoulder, he went
> sniffing around (and even came around me a few times) until he
> found some other girl who would let him feel her up.

(Bursts out laughing!!!) Hamburg?? NO meat market?? Oh dear, this city is a meat market from its tubes over its streets and surely to its clubs....it's all "see and be seen" on the weekends, that's why I go out so rarely since I've been living here. Even London was much more loose than this.

> Yes, well it turned out that HE ended up with the girl that the
> loser I described above had a crush on. She's as bad as he is.

> I would try and even talk to a couple of guys I hadn't seen in
> months, but attention starved girls who already had boyfriends
> decided they wanted to go into "pay attention to me!"
> mode and would be incredibly rude and squeeze themselves in like
> I completely didn't exist.

> So, you ask, what did Suzanne do the entire night? She located
> the gay male friend and had a gossip-a-thon.

WEll admit it - it was much more fun than taking part in the flesh rampage, wasn't it?? There's nothing like a gay friend to slag off bitchy girls....

> well, you seemed to be putting up enough of a fight about it to
> make it sound like you were serious.

I was in some sense.... but the way you interpreted what I said it suddenly seemed like my only ambition was to get married as soon as possible and then spend the rest of my days watching telly and getting fat while my husband goes to work for me. And that's obviously not the case.....

What I really meant was: if I ever SHOULD find someone I would be in love with enough to marry, I can imagine that I would also like to have kids, and THEN I would not want to spend my time in some shabby office anymore - and someone would have to earn the money wouldn't they? This is not for some oldfashioned "man-goes-out-hunting-woman-stays-in-the-cave" reasons, it's a decision based on personal experience because my mother had to work to support the family and neither of us enjoyed it. I spent so much time on my own when I was little and I'm convinced that a lot of my social problems have to do with that. I have literally a physical need to be alone sometimes, but then when I am I can not stand silence...I always need some kind of noise around me and when it gets really bad I can't even go to sleep when it's too quiet around me. If I get a chance to spare my kids such trouble then I will - besides, if I raised kids AND worked, when would I get the share of time I need to spend on myself?

But trust me I have no plans to start a family too soon..(well I'm missing the obvious ingredience - a man - aswell ). But I truly believe if you don't start to at least consider these things at a certain age you're ultimately going to pay for it. I have numerous examples in aquintances or even close family of people who held their independence or career above everything and had marriage and kids as part of their life plan for "some day". Now they're in their mid thirties and realise that "some day" might indeed remain "some day" forever. And there comes a time when everyone regrets that - loneliness (however much Morrissey claims that) doesn't get easier to bear as you get older. I believe it gets gradually worse, because apart from being lonely you also lose hope that it's ever going to change. And hope is what makes us hold on these days.... And your own family takes away a lot of that loneliness.

And mind you, being married with kids doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna fall into that cliche or turn out like our parents did. Remember this is a different generation and a totally different time. Again I have a good example in my family: my sister-in-law was a very successful tv journalist before she got married to my brother. Now she's at home, raising their kid and pregnant with the second even. She loves it! She's 33 now, a modern, progressive, independant and strong young married woman. She gets to paint, write and see her friends much more often than she did before. If you asked her whether she wanted to work again she'd laugh in your face.

But like I said - all theory anyway.... This is what I think about it and yes, I do have a very vivid picture of how I want my life to be like past 30, and husband and kids are part of that. But you see, with the way life's sick and twisted I wouldn't be surprised if it never happened!

> I have no plans for anything. Things could finally change, and I
> might be able to meet that special someone, but I'm not even
> close and I'm 26.

Well.... what more can I say?? I'm 26 in two weeks and in the same situation. But sadly enough there's some things that you just can't force.

[Mimi]

> Mimi likes MEN...ewww!

FREAKIN FUGGIN HELL, I ASKED YOU NOT TO TELL ANYONE!!!!!!!

[Arsène Quintin]

> Mimi likes ME...!

I admit, it was indeed a secret - even to Mimi herself.

I'll bear my cross with hopeful resignation.

Arsène

[punchdrunkGB]

OUR SECRET'S ARE ALL SAFE ON THE NET ;0)

I HAVE AN OBESSION WITH FARLEY'S RUSKES

LOVE EM...

> FREAKIN FUGGIN HELL, I ASKED YOU NOT TO TELL ANYONE!!!!!!!

[Mimi]

> I admit, it was indeed a secret - even to Mimi herself.

> I'll bear my cross with hopeful resignation.

> Arsène

And how practical - if I got married to you I'd only have to change one letter in my surname.....

[Montage]

> And how practical - if I got married to you I'd only have to
> change one letter in my surname.....
true but no offense, what about a husband named (Arse)ne?

[Mimi]

> true but no offense, what about a husband named (Arse)ne?

To change his first name would have to be my wedding present...which is only fair, why should I be the only one to change my name?

[Mimi]

> To change his first name would have to be my wedding
> present...which is only fair, why should I be the only one to
> change my name?

God - I seem to be talking an awful lot about marriage lately....scarry!! Must be because it's that awful time of the year - BIRTHDAY TIME! - those days to moan over regrets and hope for things to get better... and they just never do.

[Cinderella]

> FREAKIN FUGGIN HELL, I ASKED YOU NOT TO TELL ANYONE!!!!!!!

I thought you were 'out'. I'm so sorry...do you think it would be too late to pretend it was all a lie, nothing more than a vicious rumour started by an individual with a sick and filthy mind?

[hnia]

> The only Morrissey that I'm reffering to is the Morrissey that
> this website is based around, I don't know who you're talking
> about.
> As for Moz = ) he's not my idol, just an artist that I respect,
> that I would love to speak with one day.

> Karen

Karen,

Did you ever hear the Song, "Now my heart is full" and wonder if Morrissey is saying, I'm no longer in the closet and I "do" sex?

ejw

[Mimi]

> I thought you were 'out'. I'm so sorry...do you think it would
> be too late to pretend it was all a lie, nothing more than a
> vicious rumour started by an individual with a sick and filthy
> mind?

Oh no, don't do that!! I'm so relieved now that my darkest secret is out in the open - thank you my friend! Now I can stop hiding and finally start meeting men...in public.....or in privacy...whichever way I fancy....it's great, now my heart is full!

[Cinderella]

> Oh no, don't do that!! I'm so relieved now that my darkest
> secret is out in the open - thank you my friend! Now I can stop
> hiding and finally start meeting men...in public.....or in
> privacy...whichever way I fancy....it's great, now my heart is
> full!

Maybe you'll set a precedent and other women living in shame, and skulking around in the shadows because of their attraction for the opposite sex will take courage from your example?

You'll never get me to admit to such a filthy practice though! Never Ever, ever.

And "now my heart is full"...is that some kind of nasty euphemism for your degrading filthy practices?!

You know no shame.

[suzanne]

> Question is, did she succeed?? You really should't care whether
> those people like you or not.....and realistically I don't think
> you do. Maybe it's easy to say for me because I know mine is
> only going to be a temporary job anyway...but still, why play a
> role?

oh she does as she does....i then run downstairs and make fun of her to the others and they get a good laugh out of it.

> It happens quite rarely.... but on the right day combined with a
> few drinks I can turn into quite a party animal.... with the
> usual "God-what did I do last night" feeling of
> embarrassment the next morning.

i still have not been that drunk. I can't do it. I go from buzzed to puking with no layover.

> (Bursts out laughing!!!) Hamburg?? NO meat market?? Oh dear,
> this city is a meat market from its tubes over its streets and
> surely to its clubs....it's all "see and be seen" on
> the weekends, that's why I go out so rarely since I've been
> living here. Even London was much more loose than this.

no no no...

the meat market is so bad that MENSA is involved.

i had to laugh when i heard this one girls' MENSA pals were standing against the wall like they were in jr high and watching the girls jiggle on the dance floor.

they were in MENSA...it's not like they were actually going to go up and try and touch a booby! To them, it was a free girlie show.

> WEll admit it - it was much more fun than taking part in the
> flesh rampage, wasn't it?? There's nothing like a gay friend to
> slag off bitchy girls....

I like him. I wish all guys could be more like him. but he's dangerous because he's so cool that you realize you hadn't done anything the rest of the night except talk about everyone, while all the drunks are out dancing and feeling each other up...

> I was in some sense.... but the way you interpreted what I said
> it suddenly seemed like my only ambition was to get married as
> soon as possible and then spend the rest of my days watching
> telly and getting fat while my husband goes to work for me. And
> that's obviously not the case.....

> What I really meant was: if I ever SHOULD find someone I would
> be in love with enough to marry, I can imagine that I would also
> like to have kids, and THEN I would not want to spend my time in
> some shabby office anymore - and someone would have to earn the
> money wouldn't they? This is not for some oldfashioned
> "man-goes-out-hunting-woman-stays-in-the-cave"
> reasons, it's a decision based on personal experience because my
> mother had to work to support the family and neither of us
> enjoyed it. I spent so much time on my own when I was little and
> I'm convinced that a lot of my social problems have to do with
> that. I have literally a physical need to be alone sometimes,
> but then when I am I can not stand silence...I always need some
> kind of noise around me and when it gets really bad I can't even
> go to sleep when it's too quiet around me. If I get a chance to
> spare my kids such trouble then I will - besides, if I raised
> kids AND worked, when would I get the share of time I need to
> spend on myself?

I think that's normal, isn't it? most people I know don't like to be left alone. what's wrong with it?

and how do you account for when you are at school? you are without your mom there. everyone is.

i'm the opposite. i grew up with my mom always there. i take that back. she did work some and take a couple of community college classes in the evenings. the only reason why I didn't like that was because we would sometimes be dragged off to the office after school and you are bored out of your mind, and you weren't allowed to do much of anything...

But that's the way it is when you are 10. Nobody asks you your opinions.

> But trust me I have no plans to start a family too soon..(well
> I'm missing the obvious ingredience - a man - aswell ). But I
> truly believe if you don't start to at least consider these
> things at a certain age you're ultimately going to pay for it. I
> have numerous examples in aquintances or even close family of
> people who held their independence or career above everything
> and had marriage and kids as part of their life plan for
> "some day". Now they're in their mid thirties and
> realise that "some day" might indeed remain "some
> day" forever. And there comes a time when everyone regrets
> that - loneliness (however much Morrissey claims that) doesn't
> get easier to bear as you get older. I believe it gets gradually
> worse, because apart from being lonely you also lose hope that
> it's ever going to change. And hope is what makes us hold on
> these days.... And your own family takes away a lot of that
> loneliness.

I know. it;s like when you are a woman, you get older and everyone's like "ick"

and its not like we can keep having babies in our 70's like most men.

but to me, i'm trying to decide what exactly is that defining moment where you think you've met the person you're going to marry. I know of two "serious" relationships that very recently fell apart for various reasons. They had plans of getting married. Had the ring. Were planning the future, and suddenly, someone either woke up or something because it suddenly ends. and I wonder why they all thought they had found the right person, and why they had changed their minds that this is not the one.

> And mind you, being married with kids doesn't necessarily mean
> you're gonna fall into that cliche or turn out like our parents
> did. Remember this is a different generation and a totally
> different time. Again I have a good example in my family: my
> sister-in-law was a very successful tv journalist before she got
> married to my brother. Now she's at home, raising their kid and
> pregnant with the second even. She loves it! She's 33 now, a
> modern, progressive, independant and strong young married woman.
> She gets to paint, write and see her friends much more often
> than she did before. If you asked her whether she wanted to work
> again she'd laugh in your face.

some people may handle being full time parents well. notice I don't say women strictly because there are men who do that and I applaud them on their choice if they are any good at it.

but sometimes lots of people get cabin fever. it's like having strictly vanilla everyday.

there are people like my sister who are good with children. anytime there were any in the house, they loved to play with her. i'm terrible. i rarely babysat for the neighbors. it's too tiring and stressful for me that I just didn't find it that enjoyable.

> But like I said - all theory anyway.... This is what I think
> about it and yes, I do have a very vivid picture of how I want
> my life to be like past 30, and husband and kids are part of
> that. But you see, with the way life's sick and twisted I
> wouldn't be surprised if it never happened!

> Well.... what more can I say?? I'm 26 in two weeks and in the
> same situation. But sadly enough there's some things that you
> just can't force.

[suzanne]

> Mimi likes MEN...ewww!

> Oh yes she does, she told me, she had no shame about it either,
> I was shocked and appalled.

> But on a slightly more ridiculous if not sensible note...when
> you look like Mimi why should you have to make your own money,
> it's kinda tiring having to look and be that good ALL THE FUGGIN
> TIME never mind hold down a job on top of being brilliant...now
> that's not only down right tiring but if at all avoidable, it's
> down right stuuupid to boot!

considering Lillithfair was actually a plot by tyrannical lesbians to hold back the unempowered man everywhere, I see your point.

p.s. I'm not ugly.
p.p.s. I have been on dates.
ppps I am very selective about the guys I want. I don't care if this means I sit at home a lot. poor company is not what it's cracked up to be.
pppps i own a selection of little black dresses and i'm not afraid to use them.
ppppps. I am not a failed artist. I simply choose not to succeed.
pppppps it my life to wreck my own way....

[Mimi]

> Maybe you'll set a precedent and other women living in shame,
> and skulking around in the shadows because of their attraction
> for the opposite sex will take courage from your example?

> You'll never get me to admit to such a filthy practice though!
> Never Ever, ever.

> And "now my heart is full"...is that some kind of
> nasty euphemism for your degrading filthy practices?!

> You know no shame.

ON top of that, I've been invited to appear on the Jerry Springer show - the title of the show is "YES, I like men and I'm not ashamed of it". Coming soon. (hehe....)

[Mimi]

> i still have not been that drunk. I can't do it. I go from
> buzzed to puking with no layover.

Oh so do I.... but before I do that I have a few hours to turn into the incredible Hulk. I do enjoy it. But as I said I risk it rarely because spending the next two days head first in the toilet isn't my idea of fun.

> no no no...

> the meat market is so bad that MENSA is involved.

What's that??

> i had to laugh when i heard this one girls' MENSA pals were
> standing against the wall like they were in jr high and watching
> the girls jiggle on the dance floor.

> they were in MENSA...it's not like they were actually going to
> go up and try and touch a booby! To them, it was a free girlie
> show.

> I like him. I wish all guys could be more like him. but he's
> dangerous because he's so cool that you realize you hadn't done
> anything the rest of the night except talk about everyone, while
> all the drunks are out dancing and feeling each other up...

Well some guys could do with the sensitivity of a gay man I agree... how come living in the year 2001 and after 100odd years of women's liberation most men still have the wrong idea of what makes a man??

> I think that's normal, isn't it? most people I know don't like
> to be left alone. what's wrong with it?

Well but it certainly becomes a problem trying to deal with the paradox of WANTING to be on your own and then not being able to bear it....

> and how do you account for when you are at school? you are
> without your mom there. everyone is.

No, no - we're talking me getting home on my own, making lunch for myself and then spending the rest of my day alone in the house at a very young age. I went to school in a near by city so I had to grow older to be able to just stay there and spend time with my friends. My parents hated the situation they had to leave me in but they had little choice. My siblings were all a lot older and had moved out by that time.

> i'm the opposite. i grew up with my mom always there. i take
> that back. she did work some and take a couple of community
> college classes in the evenings. the only reason why I didn't
> like that was because we would sometimes be dragged off to the
> office after school and you are bored out of your mind, and you
> weren't allowed to do much of anything...

> But that's the way it is when you are 10. Nobody asks you your
> opinions.

> I know. it;s like when you are a woman, you get older and
> everyone's like "ick"

> and its not like we can keep having babies in our 70's like most
> men.

Well but these days it's no big deal to have your first child way after your 30th birthday aswell...times are changing. In our generation you can live a student's budget life until that age and noone will say anything. Or even after that because who cares apart from your own mother...

> but to me, i'm trying to decide what exactly is that defining
> moment where you think you've met the person you're going to
> marry. I know of two "serious" relationships that very
> recently fell apart for various reasons. They had plans of
> getting married. Had the ring. Were planning the future, and
> suddenly, someone either woke up or something because it
> suddenly ends. and I wonder why they all thought they had found
> the right person, and why they had changed their minds that this
> is not the one.

But that can happen anytime, and even after decades of marriage.... people change, and sometimes they start changing or developing into different directions. It can well be that someone is the right person for you in a certain phase of your life and then not anymore in another, just because you've moved into different worlds. That's totally natural. Believe me, noone would love to be in love with the same person for all their life more than I do - but that kind of thing happens so rarely that I recently decided not to count on it anymore and let all other chances pass me by. Not that my life has improved dramatically since I made that decision, but maybe it's a start....

> some people may handle being full time parents well. notice I
> don't say women strictly because there are men who do that and I
> applaud them on their choice if they are any good at it.

> but sometimes lots of people get cabin fever. it's like having
> strictly vanilla everyday.

Hmmmm, yes.... I know I'd enjoy being a mum but I also have this strange hope that I'll manage to keep a life besides kids. It's something you have to work on but it can be done.

> there are people like my sister who are good with children.
> anytime there were any in the house, they loved to play with
> her. i'm terrible. i rarely babysat for the neighbors. it's too
> tiring and stressful for me that I just didn't find it that
> enjoyable.

Have it gotten any better since then? I'm quite good with kids.... in between my schools I worked in a hospital for a bit and I usually had a throng of kids following me everywhere like a rat-catcher...it was quite funny.

[suzanne]

> Oh so do I.... but before I do that I have a few hours to turn
> into the incredible Hulk. I do enjoy it. But as I said I risk it
> rarely because spending the next two days head first in the
> toilet isn't my idea of fun.

I don't do that. I do have fun when I'm buzzed, but I'm not going to turn into that....

> What's that??

> Well some guys could do with the sensitivity of a gay man I
> agree... how come living in the year 2001 and after 100odd years
> of women's liberation most men still have the wrong idea of what
> makes a man??

It's other men telling them the wrong things.

But you know how it is. You have a general idea what other people want, but you're not really sure, so you figure that clinging to what you believe is the accepted ideal is the way to go.

> Well but it certainly becomes a problem trying to deal with the
> paradox of WANTING to be on your own and then not being able to
> bear it....

But don't you see how normal this is?

I know tons of people who don't want roommates, but then given the opportunity, they ultimately flee in the end. It may not be at the beginning, but give it time because it's human nature to want to live in close proximity to others. They get bored. There is nobody to talk to. They see their friends are either married or have lots of fun roommates where they spontaneously go out and do things and they envy the situation.

Plus, if you do want to get married, wanting to be by yourself won't really be beneficial in the end.

If you want to live on your own, it is a very gradual process. I went from living at home where there was ALWAYS somebody there to where I am. I would be thankful when my roommates would take off, and at first it was very quiet. I may not have been their best friend, but it was like "hey, they're back!"

I can't tell you of a single person that hasn't been in your boat. I think I fell off of it a while back, but there were several reasons. I began to feel like I was so different and I had to keep secrets from everyone that I couldn't fully reach out to anyone anymore, so you already feel alone even if you are in the same room with them. that, coupled with the fact that my roommates have been horrible the past couple of years, it just doesn't bother me as much anymore.

> No, no - we're talking me getting home on my own, making lunch
> for myself and then spending the rest of my day alone in the
> house at a very young age. I went to school in a near by city so
> I had to grow older to be able to just stay there and spend time
> with my friends. My parents hated the situation they had to
> leave me in but they had little choice. My siblings were all a
> lot older and had moved out by that time.

But how old were you?

I had an ex-roommate whose parents were in Saudi Arabia, and once the children become of breeder age (about 13) they are automatically shipped off to Swiss bording school by the saudi government. That's what she did, and she lived...matter of fact, she told me that her mom was such a nag that she was glad that she went.

and being in the same room with her mom for more than 5 minutes, i can't blame her.

> Well but these days it's no big deal to have your first child
> way after your 30th birthday aswell...times are changing. In our
> generation you can live a student's budget life until that age
> and noone will say anything. Or even after that because who
> cares apart from your own mother...

true! my mom is looking for grandchildren. she has little hope for me, so i don't get bothered that much.

And truthfully, there isn't much reason to rush out into the real world, is there? 95% of people are going to be working a boring, mundane job, and school is endless parties and sleeping late. If you know you're not going to be anything spectacular, you might as well draw it out as long as you can.

> But that can happen anytime, and even after decades of
> marriage.... people change, and sometimes they start changing or
> developing into different directions. It can well be that
> someone is the right person for you in a certain phase of your
> life and then not anymore in another, just because you've moved
> into different worlds. That's totally natural. Believe me, noone
> would love to be in love with the same person for all their life
> more than I do - but that kind of thing happens so rarely that I
> recently decided not to count on it anymore and let all other
> chances pass me by. Not that my life has improved dramatically
> since I made that decision, but maybe it's a start....

maybe it's best not to put so much pressure on yourself. I'm of the school that if it's the right match, you won't be able to get enough of them.

and truthfully, i think more people get married not out of being madly in love, but that they are lonely and they've been dating this person for a while and they seem stable and good material to get married to. I mean, think of all the people you have dated. It is like comparison shopping, isn't it?

But i shouldn't be the person dispensing dating advice. I guess I say what looks like should work.

> Hmmmm, yes.... I know I'd enjoy being a mum but I also have this
> strange hope that I'll manage to keep a life besides kids. It's
> something you have to work on but it can be done.

Men do it, don;'t they?

> Have it gotten any better since then? I'm quite good with
> kids.... in between my schools I worked in a hospital for a bit
> and I usually had a throng of kids following me everywhere like
> a rat-catcher...it was quite funny.

The 9 month old of the real estate agent who worked with me last year seemed to like me. God knows why. Other than that, I'm around kids so rarely that I have no idea.

[Mimi]

> I don't do that. I do have fun when I'm buzzed, but I'm not
> going to turn into that....

But where's the fun in being drunk when you don't turn into your darker half??

> It's other men telling them the wrong things.

And stupid women making them believe.

> But don't you see how normal this is?

I never said it wasn't normal, I said it was a problem for me and it will remain a problem however many zillion people share it. That's just the way it is.

> Plus, if you do want to get married, wanting to be by yourself
> won't really be beneficial in the end.

Didn't I say there was a huge paradox in these two parallel urges of mind? Now where on earth am I gonna find a man who will fit into that? The answer to that question is scaaaarryyy......

> If you want to live on your own, it is a very gradual process. I
> went from living at home where there was ALWAYS somebody there
> to where I am. I would be thankful when my roommates would take
> off, and at first it was very quiet. I may not have been their
> best friend, but it was like "hey, they're back!"

I've been living on my own for one and a half years now, thoroughly enjoying it.... but I halfway decided that just for the learning process I should really move in with someone else soon before it's too late. Otherwise I'll develop such fads and paranoias that I'll never manage to live with ANYONE.

> But how old were you?

> I had an ex-roommate whose parents were in Saudi Arabia, and
> once the children become of breeder age (about 13) they are
> automatically shipped off to Swiss bording school by the saudi
> government. That's what she did, and she lived...matter of fact,
> she told me that her mom was such a nag that she was glad that
> she went.

> and being in the same room with her mom for more than 5 minutes,
> i can't blame her.

It started when I was eight. And believe me it WAS a problem, one that you probably can't generalise, but still.... My mum was as lovely and gentle then as she is today and I missed her badly. And then it also depends on the kid - some kids in the same situation might have learned to be independant very early on, whilst I - being more sensitive and demanding more attention - just turned weird.

> true! my mom is looking for grandchildren. she has little hope
> for me, so i don't get bothered that much.

And my Mum keeps telling me how great I'd be as a Mum and what my plans are in terms of that???!! (Errrr...!) Also all the attention is focused on my now because even my two career hunting independant lone wolf typed brothers got married last year and I'm the only single person in the family. But does that make me feel under pressure???? Oh yes....

> And truthfully, there isn't much reason to rush out into the
> real world, is there? 95% of people are going to be working a
> boring, mundane job, and school is endless parties and sleeping
> late. If you know you're not going to be anything spectacular,
> you might as well draw it out as long as you can.

Oh I have, I have..... it's nothing I'm proud of now because some things that I'm struggling with now I should have been done with years ago but I was too busy having a good time. I wouldn't advise it to for instance my 16year old niece. But those are the kind of things that everyone does against good advice and only sees the damage years afterwards. I guess it's a natural process.

> maybe it's best not to put so much pressure on yourself. I'm of
> the school that if it's the right match, you won't be able to
> get enough of them.

> and truthfully, i think more people get married not out of being
> madly in love, but that they are lonely and they've been dating
> this person for a while and they seem stable and good material
> to get married to. I mean, think of all the people you have
> dated. It is like comparison shopping, isn't it?

True, yes.... And no I'm not rushing. Even if I wanted to I couldn't, the very idea of me going out husband-hunting is absurd. I haven't even gotten good at boyfriend-hunting yet. And I do the best I can to avoid practising aswell....

> But i shouldn't be the person dispensing dating advice. I guess
> I say what looks like should work.

Well don't we all have an ideal?? Sounds so nice and simple in theory..

> Men do it, don;'t they?

Weeeell, yes, they do but things do change in a different sense for them aswell.... I have this real life example right now in my brother, married to the girl I was telling you about the other day. It's not that he doesn't like the new situation, I just note a slight discomfort in the fact that he has so much responsibility on his shoulders all of a sudden. He isn't completely happy with the fact that he doesn't work entirely for himself, his career and personal progress anymore but to take care of a family, a house etc. also. He's quite a good journalist, but that in itself isn't exactly a steady job and he had to stay in a particular job for instance that he didn't like, because the decision to quit and look for something else isn't in his hands alone anymore. So - I'm not saying men give up as much as women do but it's not like they don't get wounded aswell.

But then that's all a part of a growing-up process, isn't it??? Especially these days, when you can remain a teenager mentally until you finally have to take care of other people apart from yourself.

> The 9 month old of the real estate agent who worked with me last
> year seemed to like me. God knows why. Other than that, I'm
> around kids so rarely that I have no idea.

It's how you approach them first I think.... you don't even have to do much because most kids are curious of new people by nature. I don't usually do much, I'm just friendly and warm and everything else they pick up by themselves. I find that very fascinating.

[suzanne]

> But where's the fun in being drunk when you don't turn into your
> darker half??

OK...for example, yesterday, I was acting like a complete retard. I was out with friends and doing dumb things...not on purpose, but my brain would not work. Then, I drank, and my head cleared up and I became funny and reasonable again.

That was the first time in the history of my drinking life that my IQ has actually risen from drinking.

Other than that, I'm known in my circle as the funny drunk.

but tonight, we went to some 2-stepping kind of club with country western music. Two guys sitting at one table. One guy with a truck-driver-ish baseball hat comes over to talk to me and I'm like "shyeah!" and so I tell him I have a boyfriend out with his friends tonight. I'm like "goodie!" when he leaves, and then when I went dancing with one of my friends (stepping all over his feet mixed with dancing like I have a metal rod up my spine, it was verrry charming i'm sure, which I have to laugh whenever I go out dancing some place my friends drag me and requires some sort of coordinated movement as some guy asks me to dance and I end up ruining any sense that I'm sophisticated when I start moving like Jerry Lewis) and this guys FRIEND decides to ask my friend what my status was and then he tried asking me to dance.

What? Are they going to share me? I should have danced with him just to step all over his feet.

> And stupid women making them believe.

> I never said it wasn't normal, I said it was a problem for me
> and it will remain a problem however many zillion people share
> it. That's just the way it is.

Yeah, but....it follows you everywhere, correct? It just doesn't really start and stop when you want it.

> Didn't I say there was a huge paradox in these two parallel
> urges of mind? Now where on earth am I gonna find a man who will
> fit into that? The answer to that question is scaaaarryyy......

I've wondered that as well. Guys are equally clingy as girls and want maintenance, so what to do with them when you want to be by yourself for 3 days or so.....what a poser!

> I've been living on my own for one and a half years now,
> thoroughly enjoying it.... but I halfway decided that just for
> the learning process I should really move in with someone else
> soon before it's too late. Otherwise I'll develop such fads and
> paranoias that I'll never manage to live with ANYONE.

ha ha ha ha ha

I went through this exact same thing a few years ago. I was all living on my own and @#!!!, and then I get the brilliant idea that my place is a bit too quiet and I'm getting very used to it being this way and I needed to break the mold a bit and find a roommate...preferably someone I really didn't know and possibly expand my social circle a bit.

so I did. I moved into this place where they actually pair you up with people. I ended up living with this bitch girl from hell that prided herself on dating nothing but baseball players, and then later that year, a 47 year old woman relocating from St. Louis and suffering from the worst case of homesickness EVER brings herself and her scary husband who couldn't drive and sacked groceries for a living in for a short stint as they found a "real" place to live.

Hating that in the worst way, I escaped to live with an ex-roommate from college. She ended up sucking money off of me, and having her disgusting (now) ex-fiance piling in, and I'd have to listen to his bull@#!!! alternating with waking up on saturday and finding him lying around in his boxer shorts on my futon.

I live alone again and I don't miss ANYONE.

My moral: leave yourself with your illusions. do NOT have them stripped away like I have.

> It started when I was eight. And believe me it WAS a problem,
> one that you probably can't generalise, but still.... My mum was
> as lovely and gentle then as she is today and I missed her
> badly. And then it also depends on the kid - some kids in the
> same situation might have learned to be independant very early
> on, whilst I - being more sensitive and demanding more attention
> - just turned weird.

but why did you have to be sent away? was she sick? was the financial situation very hard? were the schools better?

an ex-uncle (by marriage) of mine was sent away by his mom because they were poor and he had polio.

> And my Mum keeps telling me how great I'd be as a Mum and what
> my plans are in terms of that???!! (Errrr...!) Also all the
> attention is focused on my now because even my two career
> hunting independant lone wolf typed brothers got married last
> year and I'm the only single person in the family. But does that
> make me feel under pressure???? Oh yes....

heh...

well, i'm the oldest and my sister recently ended her relationship with her fiance...7 months ago, I believe..., and it looks like she may have found somebody else now.

I'm honestly happy for her. She was so down on herself about everything and her ex is a freak and still calls the house about 6 times a day.

> Oh I have, I have..... it's nothing I'm proud of now because
> some things that I'm struggling with now I should have been done
> with years ago but I was too busy having a good time. I wouldn't
> advise it to for instance my 16year old niece. But those are the
> kind of things that everyone does against good advice and only
> sees the damage years afterwards. I guess it's a natural
> process.

> True, yes.... And no I'm not rushing. Even if I wanted to I
> couldn't, the very idea of me going out husband-hunting is
> absurd. I haven't even gotten good at boyfriend-hunting yet. And
> I do the best I can to avoid practising aswell....

me too. but what exactly is practice? Is it a gameplan? I sometimes wonder if all you have to do is go down a grocery list of things you need to do and things will happen.

I wish I could lose the cynicism. It's fascinating when you do watch movies like crouching tiger, hidden dragon and you see all this repressed love and romeo and juliet kind of love and you think, "hey...they hooked up for reasons other than they were horny and desperate!" and you keep hoping for someone you know to put on that sort of display in real life where you will regain your faith that hallmark cards were invented for a reason.

At this point I would think they should market a line of Thank You cards.

"Thank you for sleeping with me for 2 months in a row."

> Well don't we all have an ideal?? Sounds so nice and simple in
> theory..

> Weeeell, yes, they do but things do change in a different sense
> for them aswell.... I have this real life example right now in
> my brother, married to the girl I was telling you about the
> other day. It's not that he doesn't like the new situation, I
> just note a slight discomfort in the fact that he has so much
> responsibility on his shoulders all of a sudden. He isn't
> completely happy with the fact that he doesn't work entirely for
> himself, his career and personal progress anymore but to take
> care of a family, a house etc. also. He's quite a good
> journalist, but that in itself isn't exactly a steady job and he
> had to stay in a particular job for instance that he didn't
> like, because the decision to quit and look for something else
> isn't in his hands alone anymore. So - I'm not saying men give
> up as much as women do but it's not like they don't get wounded
> aswell.

I know. But he's actually a dependable guy that worries about these things, and I think he probably realized this before going into the marriage that he will have to have other people to think about.

I know someone who is married to this guy who absolutely does not care if his wife has to go borrow money from the in-laws. He'll work a job, whine that they said something he didn't like, and quit and procede to sit around and play in the garage fixing up his cars.

She works full time at a place she's been at for over 10 years AND they have a 5 year old, which since he thinks its "womans work" that she has to make sure this kid is fully taken care of as well, but from what I've noticed, not ONCE has he dropped anything that he wanted to do and given her a break or helped out.

That is the big scarey thing to me. Love shuts off the reasoning center in your brain and you wake up in a situation like THAT, and that's why I say that if you do get married and have children and even if you do want to stay at home and raise them, there is no guarantee that it will happen. Obviously her brain wasn't functioning when she picked this guy and I look at this and think "oh god! it can happen to any of us if we're desperate enough!"

> But then that's all a part of a growing-up process, isn't it???
> Especially these days, when you can remain a teenager mentally
> until you finally have to take care of other people apart from
> yourself.

> It's how you approach them first I think.... you don't even have
> to do much because most kids are curious of new people by
> nature. I don't usually do much, I'm just friendly and warm and
> everything else they pick up by themselves. I find that very
> fascinating.

as a kid i was NOT curious about new people. I dont' care how nice they were. I distinctly remember running and hiding under my bed anytime someone would come over (I had every little nook picked out around my house where I liked to curl up in and stay for a long time, even if there weren't strangers coming over), so I don't know how to relate to that.

[Mimi]

> OK...for example, yesterday, I was acting like a complete
> retard. I was out with friends and doing dumb things...not on
> purpose, but my brain would not work. Then, I drank, and my head
> cleared up and I became funny and reasonable again.

> That was the first time in the history of my drinking life that
> my IQ has actually risen from drinking.

> Other than that, I'm known in my circle as the funny drunk.

I'm unpredictable really...most of the time I'll get funny, often I get all teary and then sometimes I turn into a right smart ass and start abusing philosophy of the last three centuries.

> but tonight, we went to some 2-stepping kind of club with
> country western music. Two guys sitting at one table. One guy
> with a truck-driver-ish baseball hat comes over to talk to me
> and I'm like "shyeah!" and so I tell him I have a
> boyfriend out with his friends tonight. I'm like
> "goodie!" when he leaves, and then when I went dancing
> with one of my friends (stepping all over his feet mixed with
> dancing like I have a metal rod up my spine, it was verrry
> charming i'm sure, which I have to laugh whenever I go out
> dancing some place my friends drag me and requires some sort of
> coordinated movement as some guy asks me to dance and I end up
> ruining any sense that I'm sophisticated when I start moving
> like Jerry Lewis) and this guys FRIEND decides to ask my friend
> what my status was and then he tried asking me to dance.

> What? Are they going to share me? I should have danced with him
> just to step all over his feet.

Hehe.... you're quite good though. I always seem to be wearing my most evil face when I go out (well unless I'm funny and drunk) because only the bravest ever dare to try and pick me up. And of course they're the most annoying and useless and not even worth considering. I like shy men, I just do everything as wrong as possible to meet them. Stupid really.

> Yeah, but....it follows you everywhere, correct? It just doesn't
> really start and stop when you want it.

I bloody well wish it would!

> I've wondered that as well. Guys are equally clingy as girls and
> want maintenance, so what to do with them when you want to be by
> yourself for 3 days or so.....what a poser!

I always found that guys turn out to do the opposite than you do - meaning if you're clingy and try to be close all the time they try to run as much as they can, and if you're the independant one demanding space then they get really panicky and try to chain you down. There seems to be little in between.

> I went through this exact same thing a few years ago. I was all
> living on my own and @#!!! , and then I get the brilliant idea
> that my place is a bit too quiet and I'm getting very used to it
> being this way and I needed to break the mold a bit and find a
> roommate...preferably someone I really didn't know and possibly
> expand my social circle a bit.

> so I did. I moved into this place where they actually pair you
> up with people. I ended up living with this bitch girl from hell
> that prided herself on dating nothing but baseball players, and
> then later that year, a 47 year old woman relocating from St.
> Louis and suffering from the worst case of homesickness EVER
> brings herself and her scary husband who couldn't drive and
> sacked groceries for a living in for a short stint as they found
> a "real" place to live.

> Hating that in the worst way, I escaped to live with an
> ex-roommate from college. She ended up sucking money off of me,
> and having her disgusting (now) ex-fiance piling in, and I'd
> have to listen to his bull @#!!! alternating with waking up on
> saturday and finding him lying around in his boxer shorts on my
> futon.

> I live alone again and I don't miss ANYONE.

Well there you go.... those kind of examples have held me back succesfully so far. But in the end I won't know what it's like until I do it myself, will I? Besides I know of many people who had very pleasant experiences in living with someone. Anyone.

> My moral: leave yourself with your illusions. do NOT have them
> stripped away like I have.

Oh I dunno....

> but why did you have to be sent away? was she sick? was the
> financial situation very hard? were the schools better?

No I wasn't sent away... I just had to spend the rest of the day on my own after I got home from school because both my parents had to go to work. My school was in town and we lived a few miles out in the suburbs. All my friends lived in town though so I really did spend a lot of time on my own. The worst was when I was about eight to fourteen, after that I started to go out more and had also stopped caring so much.

> well, i'm the oldest and my sister recently ended her
> relationship with her fiance...7 months ago, I believe..., and
> it looks like she may have found somebody else now.

> I'm honestly happy for her. She was so down on herself about
> everything and her ex is a freak and still calls the house about
> 6 times a day.

Oh don't you just love it when they do that....

> me too. but what exactly is practice? Is it a gameplan? I
> sometimes wonder if all you have to do is go down a grocery list
> of things you need to do and things will happen.

Oh I wish.... but I had a list like that for ages. And I'm still waiting. And nothing's happening.

> I wish I could lose the cynicism. It's fascinating when you do
> watch movies like crouching tiger, hidden dragon and you see all
> this repressed love and romeo and juliet kind of love and you
> think, "hey...they hooked up for reasons other than they
> were horny and desperate!" and you keep hoping for someone
> you know to put on that sort of display in real life where you
> will regain your faith that hallmark cards were invented for a
> reason.

"The story is old....."

> At this point I would think they should market a line of Thank
> You cards.

> "Thank you for sleeping with me for 2 months in a
> row."

(Chuckle!)

> I know. But he's actually a dependable guy that worries about
> these things, and I think he probably realized this before going
> into the marriage that he will have to have other people to
> think about.

Well yes, and it's not like it's a problem.... it's just one of these things that probably seemed easier in theory.

> I know someone who is married to this guy who absolutely does
> not care if his wife has to go borrow money from the in-laws.
> He'll work a job, whine that they said something he didn't like,
> and quit and procede to sit around and play in the garage fixing
> up his cars.

> She works full time at a place she's been at for over 10 years
> AND they have a 5 year old, which since he thinks its
> "womans work" that she has to make sure this kid is
> fully taken care of as well, but from what I've noticed, not
> ONCE has he dropped anything that he wanted to do and given her
> a break or helped out.

> That is the big scarey thing to me. Love shuts off the reasoning
> center in your brain and you wake up in a situation like THAT,
> and that's why I say that if you do get married and have
> children and even if you do want to stay at home and raise them,
> there is no guarantee that it will happen. Obviously her brain
> wasn't functioning when she picked this guy and I look at this
> and think "oh god! it can happen to any of us if we're
> desperate enough!"

Oh it IS scary! Maybe I'm too steamy in my youthful idealism but I couldn't imagine still being in love with someone after they turned out that way.. could you? I mean it's all very well, love making you blind and all that... but I honestly couldn't live with someone who treats me like that. I hope (I never got a chance to find out....)

> as a kid i was NOT curious about new people. I dont' care how
> nice they were. I distinctly remember running and hiding under
> my bed anytime someone would come over (I had every little nook
> picked out around my house where I liked to curl up in and stay
> for a long time, even if there weren't strangers coming over),
> so I don't know how to relate to that.

Ok every kid is different...actually I wasn't oh so open myself. I was friendly, but quite shy and it always took me a while to warm up with both grown-ups and other kids. I'm still like that - why change the habit of a life time?