Well, I guess I wanna put this at the top of the list, since you've now repeated your ignorant statement that "Saddam has not tortured anyone since 1989." You're so far out of reality I'm hoping this is some sort of joke. But if it's not:

First, you're a fool.

Second....

Notastichtowear writes:
>Can't handle the truth, eh? What's ignorant is someone who acts
>like they have ALL the information and knowledge first hand and
>blows off (or up, as in this case) anyone else with any
>information contrary to what they (want) to believe.

You didn't "present information," you made a statement: "Saddam has not tortured anyone since 1989." That was all you said. The only information contained in that statement is that the writer (you) is completely uninformed. If you really believe that you must be frequenting kookier web sites than I thought.

>You better believe I read and it's not a library that's gonna
>help me out because...see unlike you I read about CURRENT events.

You think one can't learn about Iraq since 1989 at a library???

I dunno about your libraries you go to....

Anyway, I've read accounts from people who have THEMSELVES been torured in Iraq since 1989.

But I'll give you just a few sources with which you can start your much-needed education, and until you do educate yourself you really shouldn't be speaking about Iraq policies at all. You're completely in the dark about the situation.
It's sad, really. But you're speaking of the fate of 25 million people living in terror and oppression in Iraq, and you don't know shit.

OK, well I recommend starting with two books by Kanan Makiya:

1. Republic of Fear: The Politics of Modern Iraq, Updated Edition
2. Cruelty and Silence: War, Tyranny, Uprising, and the Arab World

Then you might consider checking out what the U.N. Commission on Human Rights condemned when they adopted a "Resolution of HUman Rights Abuses in Iraq" in 2002 (you notice how I'm the only one here who gives a shit about U.N. resolutions???): The condemned "the systematic widespread and extremely grave violations of human rights and of international humanitarian law by the Government of IRaq, resulting in an all-pervasive repression and oppression sustained by broad-based discrimination and widespread terror; the repression faced by any kind of opposistion, in particular the harassment and intimidation of and threats against Iraqi opponants living abroad and members of their families; summary and arbitrary executions, including political killings and the continued so-called clean-out of prisons, the use of rape as a political tool, as well as enforced or involuntary disappearances, routinely practised arbitrary arrests and detention, an consistent and routine failure to respect due process and the rule of law; [and] widespread, systematic torture and the maintaining of decrees prescribing cruel and inhumane punishment as a penalty for offences."

You might also wanna try and find the BBC's "Iraq's Tortured Children" from 2002.

And you should check out Amnesty International's "Iraq: Systematic Torture of Political Prisoners," August 15, 2001, available at (see, you're one click away from truth):
http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140082001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES/IRAQ

Or maybe staff at a library can help you locate the "European Report on the Situation in Iraq," from the International Alliance for Justice News Service, April 29, 2002.

Or maybe you can just sit there and keep saying the retarded shit you say, without a clue in your thick skull, and get pats on the back from equally ignorant fools.

Well, I'm sorry, but it's not just stupid on your part; it's offensive. There are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of IRaqis who have been tortured In Iraq. Consider the size of the country, and work out the truth of my previous statement that every family in Iraq has had a loved one tortured and/or murdered by Saddam. And many are tortured for the smallest "offenses" imaginable - such as accidentally defacing an image of Saddam - and many are brought in for torture by mistake (Saddam doesn't care). There are even reports of soccer players tortured by Saddam's son for losing a game. There are actually people in Iraq who are trained to be rapists for Saddam, and they rape females in front of their families. And of course there is the FACT that he even has CHILDREN tortured in front of their parents. Their bones crushed, their eyes gouged out. All of this reminds me of atrocities committed by the Japanese in China during WW2. It also reminds one of Hitler.

This is documented. You want ten more sources? Or at some point are you gonna either SHUT THE FUCK UP on matters you know nothing about, or do your own research from CREDILE sources (in other words, beware of web sites that shill for evil dictators...)? And you don't even have to go to the trouble of going to a library. If you'd just turn on the right TV programs you'd see this. There's been documentary programs about it. Hell, just a few weeks ago 60 Minutes had a man on who was tortured in Iraq for refusing to work on Saddam's nuclear program. He said the most painful thing (more painful than the elctrodes attached to his penis) was hearing the screams of children being tortured. And of course in 2000, Saddam made it a crime to criticize the regime, punishmed by the hacking off of the person's tognue (and "criticizing" includes, for example, saying that Saddam's clothes don't match).

And then there's the fact of genocide. We went after Molisevic for genocide. Well, Saddam does it too. I'm one of those crazy people who thinks there's an obligation of the world community to intervene when genocide is taking place before our eyes.

And did you know that Saddam, in the early '90s, constructed a canal system to divert water from marshes in southern Iraq? He purposely dried up 4,500 square kilometers of wetlands, and then had soldiers go in to burn villages and poison the water that remained. This was a purposely created environmental catastrophe, wrecking the way of life of hundreds of thousqands of "Marsh Arabs" who have lived there for a thousand years, because Saddam seeks to eliminate groups of Iraqi civilians living in the south.

But then environmental terrorism is nothing new for Saddam, the man who ignited the Kuwaiti oil fields for no reason at all except pure evil. They're still cleaning that up today.....

But you don't care. Yet that doesn't stop you from calling me all sorts of evil things, from "war mongerer" to "nazi" etc. You make me sick.
I know who the war mongeror and the nazi is, and I know who it is on this board who white-washes his agression and crimes against humanity.

>You think I made this up? I thought it was common knowledge by now,

LOL! You thought it was "common knowledge" that Saddam stopped torturing people in 1989, did you? No, FOOL, it's common knowledge that all of Iraq is one big horrifying torture chamber for the 25 million people enslaved there. Common knowledge to all except those, like you, who "educate" themselves at pro-Saddam web sites. You make me vomit. There's no excuse for this level of ignorance. All these weeks you've been pretending to care about human life, and all along you think Saddam is an OK dude and you're gonna go around sticking up for him.

Shame on you. You deserves to live under Saddam's rule.
Why don't you go be a fucking "human shield," you horse's ass.

>but I guess not. You show me, Oaf, where there is a current
>account of Saddam 'torturing' someone within the last ten years.
>My guess is that you're so mad because I've shattered your fantasy
>of Saddam torturing people while the USA stands appearing angelic-like
>and wearing a halo. So sorry to have to do that to ya kid.

LOL!

I really hope this is all some kind of joke....

>>Listen, jerk-off, you don't know shit about what I care about. You've
>>already proven yourself to be completely uninformed about the situation,
>>given your statement tonight that "Saddam hasn't tortured anyone
>> since 1989." When you take the time to educate yourself perhaps
>> you'll be ashamed of your ignorance.
>> You sure oughta be.

>>I've about had it with ignorant people feeling they have a right to voice
>> opinions about such matters. I'll put you with that Fred Durst dickwad and
>> dismiss you entirely.

>> People like you are what's wrong with this world.

>You mean people like me (the majority at this point)
>who don't want
>to go to war, kill both innocent Iraqi's and American's for illegitamate >reasons are

Don't you dare try and pretend you care about human life, you fucking sicko.

>what's wrong in this world? But people like you and 'Bush & CO.' who
>are war mongerers, destroy the environment, take money away from our
>school systems, etc. are what's RIGHT in this world? Boy, you MUST be
>drunk!

Yes, you are what's wrong with this world.

Keep spreading your Saddam's-Not-So-Bad propaganda while families are being tortured in Saddam's prisons as we type.

Maybe you should realize it's possible to take an anti-war position without becoming a white-washer of evil.

Mindy should try and realize that as well.....

> Maybe you should realize it's possible to take an anti-war position
> without becoming a white-washer of evil.

> Mindy should try and realize that as well.....

What really gets me about these people who down play the torture that Iraqi citizens go through, is that they say, "that's only SOME Iraqis."

Huh? And that's supposed to justify it? LOL

I don't think the fact that human rights abuses occur in Iraq are the MAIN REASON we are going there by any means, but to argue that Saddam insane is open to "diplomacy" after gassing his own people is just ridiculous.

Besides, look how great our diplomacy did is in N. Korea. What happened to nobel peace prize winning Jimmy Carter's wonderful work there? And, before you go blaming Bush for it, ONE CANNOT HAVE A PROGRAM AS ADVANCED AS THEIRS OVER NIGHT. Meaning, that for at least 5-10 years now the N. Koreans have been working on these weapons. BUT DIPLOMACY WORKS RIGHT! NO WAR AT ALL COSTS RIGHT?! EVEN IF IT MEANS OUR ASSES ARE DUST!

i just saw him eat an entire bag full of taco bell gorditas and 3 bran muffins!

> I don't think the fact that human rights abuses occur in Iraq are the MAIN
> REASON we are going there by any means, but to argue that Saddam insane is
> open to "diplomacy" after gassing his own people is just
> ridiculous.

It's not the main reason (national security is), but it gives me a clear conscience in elimating the threat of Saddam. Because there are consequences for leaving him in power. It's not a benign status quo there. Lives will be saved by his removal.

What's really funny is, they condemn America for having dirty hands in dealing with dictators like Saddam, but you see when and what they protest? They didn't go out in the streets to protest those policies. No, they take to the streets to protest when America's Middle East policy takes a turn and is finally doing something RIGHT. Strange....

> Besides, look how great our diplomacy did is in N. Korea. What happened to
> nobel peace prize winning Jimmy Carter's wonderful work there?

Hans Blix had a hand in that one too! What a guy....

Please be respectful towards one another when you post.

> Besides, look how great our diplomacy did is in N. Korea. What happened to
> nobel peace prize winning Jimmy Carter's wonderful work there? And, before
> you go blaming Bush for it, ONE CANNOT HAVE A PROGRAM AS ADVANCED AS
> THEIRS OVER NIGHT. Meaning, that for at least 5-10 years now the N.
> Koreans have been working on these weapons. BUT DIPLOMACY WORKS RIGHT! NO
> WAR AT ALL COSTS RIGHT?! EVEN IF IT MEANS OUR ASSES ARE DUST!

True enough, but I await news of your policy in relation to nuclear dictatorship Pakistan. And it's worth asking how much of Carter and co.'s work has been undone by Bush's anti-N. Korea rhetoric causing them to feel they're next on the chopping block...

you obviously don't get out much do you Oaf?

Go fuck yourself ass clown!!! respectful enough for you???

> Please be respectful towards one another when you post.

LOL! IOW, Notastitchtowear is always free to attack me, but I can't attack back. Even though Notastitchtowear is becoming the equivalent of a Nazi Holocaust denier?

> Well, I guess I wanna put this at the top of the list, since you've now
> repeated your ignorant statement that "Saddam has not tortured anyone
> since 1989." You're so far out of reality I'm hoping this is some
> sort of joke. But if it's not:

> First, you're a fool.

> Second....

> Notastichtowear writes:

> You didn't "present information," you made a statement:
> "Saddam has not tortured anyone since 1989." That was all you
> said. The only information contained in that statement is that the writer
> (you) is completely uninformed. If you really believe that you must be
> frequenting kookier web sites than I thought.

> You think one can't learn about Iraq since 1989 at a library???

> I dunno about your libraries you go to....

> Anyway, I've read accounts from people who have THEMSELVES been torured in
> Iraq since 1989.

> But I'll give you just a few sources with which you can start your
> much-needed education, and until you do educate yourself you really
> shouldn't be speaking about Iraq policies at all. You're completely in the
> dark about the situation.
> It's sad, really. But you're speaking of the fate of 25 million people
> living in terror and oppression in Iraq, and you don't know shit.

> OK, well I recommend starting with two books by Kanan Makiya:

> 1. Republic of Fear: The Politics of Modern Iraq, Updated Edition
> 2. Cruelty and Silence: War, Tyranny, Uprising, and the Arab World

> Then you might consider checking out what the U.N. Commission on Human
> Rights condemned when they adopted a "Resolution of HUman Rights
> Abuses in Iraq" in 2002 (you notice how I'm the only one here who
> gives a shit about U.N. resolutions???): The condemned "the
> systematic widespread and extremely grave violations of human rights and
> of international humanitarian law by the Government of IRaq, resulting in
> an all-pervasive repression and oppression sustained by broad-based
> discrimination and widespread terror; the repression faced by any kind of
> opposistion, in particular the harassment and intimidation of and threats
> against Iraqi opponants living abroad and members of their families;
> summary and arbitrary executions, including political killings and the
> continued so-called clean-out of prisons, the use of rape as a political
> tool, as well as enforced or involuntary disappearances, routinely
> practised arbitrary arrests and detention, an consistent and routine
> failure to respect due process and the rule of law; [and] widespread,
> systematic torture and the maintaining of decrees prescribing cruel and
> inhumane punishment as a penalty for offences."

> You might also wanna try and find the BBC's "Iraq's Tortured
> Children" from 2002.

> And you should check out Amnesty International's "Iraq: Systematic
> Torture of Political Prisoners," August 15, 2001, available at (see,
> you're one click away from truth):
>
> http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140082001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES/IRAQ
> Or maybe staff at a library can help you locate the "European Report
> on the Situation in Iraq," from the International Alliance for
> Justice News Service, April 29, 2002.

> Or maybe you can just sit there and keep saying the retarded shit you say,
> without a clue in your thick skull, and get pats on the back from equally
> ignorant fools.

> Well, I'm sorry, but it's not just stupid on your part; it's offensive.
> There are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of IRaqis who have been tortured In Iraq.
> Consider the size of the country, and work out the truth of my previous
> statement that every family in Iraq has had a loved one tortured and/or
> murdered by Saddam. And many are tortured for the smallest
> "offenses" imaginable - such as accidentally defacing an image
> of Saddam - and many are brought in for torture by mistake (Saddam doesn't
> care). There are even reports of soccer players tortured by Saddam's son
> for losing a game. There are actually people in Iraq who are trained to be
> rapists for Saddam, and they rape females in front of their families. And
> of course there is the FACT that he even has CHILDREN tortured in front of
> their parents. Their bones crushed, their eyes gouged out. All of this
> reminds me of atrocities committed by the Japanese in China during WW2. It
> also reminds one of Hitler.

> This is documented. You want ten more sources? Or at some point are you
> gonna either SHUT THE FUCK UP on matters you know nothing about, or do
> your own research from CREDILE sources (in other words, beware of web
> sites that shill for evil dictators...)? And you don't even have to go to
> the trouble of going to a library. If you'd just turn on the right TV
> programs you'd see this. There's been documentary programs about it. Hell,
> just a few weeks ago 60 Minutes had a man on who was tortured in Iraq for
> refusing to work on Saddam's nuclear program. He said the most painful
> thing (more painful than the elctrodes attached to his penis) was hearing
> the screams of children being tortured. And of course in 2000, Saddam made
> it a crime to criticize the regime, punishmed by the hacking off of the
> person's tognue (and "criticizing" includes, for example, saying
> that Saddam's clothes don't match).

> And then there's the fact of genocide. We went after Molisevic for
> genocide. Well, Saddam does it too. I'm one of those crazy people who
> thinks there's an obligation of the world community to intervene when
> genocide is taking place before our eyes.

> And did you know that Saddam, in the early '90s, constructed a canal
> system to divert water from marshes in southern Iraq? He purposely dried
> up 4,500 square kilometers of wetlands, and then had soldiers go in to
> burn villages and poison the water that remained. This was a purposely
> created environmental catastrophe, wrecking the way of life of hundreds of
> thousqands of "Marsh Arabs" who have lived there for a thousand
> years, because Saddam seeks to eliminate groups of Iraqi civilians living
> in the south.

> But then environmental terrorism is nothing new for Saddam, the man who
> ignited the Kuwaiti oil fields for no reason at all except pure evil.
> They're still cleaning that up today.....

> But you don't care. Yet that doesn't stop you from calling me all sorts of
> evil things, from "war mongerer" to "nazi" etc. You
> make me sick.
> I know who the war mongeror and the nazi is, and I know who it is on this
> board who white-washes his agression and crimes against humanity.

> LOL! You thought it was "common knowledge" that Saddam stopped
> torturing people in 1989, did you? No, FOOL, it's common knowledge that
> all of Iraq is one big horrifying torture chamber for the 25 million
> people enslaved there. Common knowledge to all except those, like you, who
> "educate" themselves at pro-Saddam web sites. You make me vomit.
> There's no excuse for this level of ignorance. All these weeks you've been
> pretending to care about human life, and all along you think Saddam is an
> OK dude and you're gonna go around sticking up for him.

> Shame on you. You deserves to live under Saddam's rule.
> Why don't you go be a fucking "human shield," you horse's ass.

> LOL!

> I really hope this is all some kind of joke....

> Don't you dare try and pretend you care about human life, you fucking
> sicko.

> Yes, you are what's wrong with this world.

> Keep spreading your Saddam's-Not-So-Bad propaganda while families are
> being tortured in Saddam's prisons as we type.

Wow, I really hit a nerve, didn't I? Sorry I got your panties so tightly in a wad. You are talking to me as if I am Saddam himself, and just the way you are responding to me is supposed to make me think that you have 'respect' for human life? What this proves to me, and always what I've thought about you, is that you have a love affair with anger and violence and that is really what attracts you to this war. What you don't realize is that your animosity actually discredits you arguement. I should've known better than to respond to your posts because you are WACK-O, you can't hold a civil discussion like a normal, respectable human being! Look, I don't answer to you, I don't care what you think of me, how I get my information or what I should read. What I do see is a pattern with you where you pick ONE thing out of someone's post, either mine or Mindy's, take it out of context and go on and on about it. You say I didn't respond your post about the 'torture', I most certainly did, look around a bit more. What YOU didn't respond to in my post is the facts about the other evil world leaders and that Bush is also an evil dictator who has killed his own people, like the ones on death row when he was Governor of Texas. If you thought I was really as stupid and as misinformed as you think I am, then you would've have gone off about my response as much as you did. Because of the way you responded tells me that I hit some nerve with you. If you truly thought I was so misinformed, you would've ignored my post, but you didn't. I didn't read your over the top, enraged post because...I don't have to, and will continue to ignore your presence on this board because you are so unreasonable and quite frankly an asshole! I'll save my political discussions with folks who a little more civilized. Ba-bye!

> I didn't read your over the top, enraged post because...I
> don't have to,

You don't have to, but I think you should - there's some good points made. Not the politest response perhaps, but if you go about claiming that Saddam hasn’t tortured anyone since 1989, you’re going to annoy people.

> You don't have to, but I think you should - there's some good points made.
> Not the politest response perhaps, but if you go about claiming that
> Saddam hasn’t tortured anyone since 1989, you’re going to annoy people.

Good points are never made through rage. If someone would like to dicuss this civily, I am more than happy to but why would I expose myself to a rage-a-holics antics, there can not possibly be any sane thought coming from someone who is so out of control with their emotions. And Oaf gets "annoyed" by anything or anyone with opposing views so no matter what I say, he'll be "annoyed". If you look around here, it doesn't take much to "annoy" people, and god forbid people get "annoyed". Look, the key word here was 'torture', he has 'had' people killed but what I was refering to was the mass killing/ torture of the Kurds in '88, and yesterday was the anniversary of this event. I am willing to admit the possibility that this bit of information I received from my sources was incorrect. Did you go back and read the original post where this statement originated? Instead of dealing with my point of my entire statement, Oaf pulls out one statement which may be 'marginal', drags it out through the mud and beats it like a dead horse. My point was that there are other 'evil' world leaders who have and are doing much more atrocious things to their people and MORE RECENTLY than Saddam. What I find "annoying" is that people repeatedly insist that this war is all about saving the Iraqi's and that is an all out lie!