I know, Mozzer is perceived (fairly or perhaps unfairly) to be indifferent to Black-originated trends in music like jazz, rap, soul, hip hop...

Yet, mozfans are a sophisticated bunch, yet I was mighty disappointed that while Britpop and white Americans are being discussed, no one ever discussed ANY black artists... OK, Loafing Oaf once mentioned his love for some rap act I forgot... Others? Let's have a 'lit fun tonite...

Please, list 3 fav Black (Afroamerican) musicians of yours... could be rap, jazz, whatever... man or woman.

Mine:

1.) Donna Summer
2.) Res
3.) Erukah Badu

1) lauryn hill
2) outkast
3) louis armstrong (or some other jazz person -- i like billie holliday and ella fitzgerald as well as duke ellington and dizzie gillespie)

In no particular order:

-Otis Redding

-The Four Tops

-The Drifters/Ben E. King

-Robert Bradley's Blackwater Surprise

What? I couldn't pick three...so, sue me. This IS America, you could probably get away with it

1) Bob Marley ( does he count? Certainly 'black' anyway, although not from the US)

2) Dr.Dre ( world's best producer and great rapper too )

3) Jimi Hendrix ( Original guitar hero )

1. Bob Marley
2. Jimi Hendrix
3. Miles Davis

Roots Manuva
Bob Marley
Mos Def

Lauryn Hill is a racist. Shame on you.

1. Jimi Hendrix, although he was African-British
2. Run
3. DMC
4. Jam Master Jay

"We're wheelin', we're dealin'
we got a funny feelin'
we rock the floor
up to the ceilin'

We're movin', we're groovin'
It has been proven
We calm the savage beast
Because our music is soothin'"

> I know, Mozzer is perceived (fairly or perhaps unfairly) to be indifferent
> to Black-originated trends in music like jazz, rap, soul, hip hop...

> Yet, mozfans are a sophisticated bunch, yet I was mighty disappointed that
> while Britpop and white Americans are being discussed, no one ever
> discussed ANY black artists... OK, Loafing Oaf once mentioned his love for
> some rap act I forgot... Others? Let's have a 'lit fun tonite...

> Please, list 3 fav Black (Afroamerican) musicians of yours... could be
> rap, jazz, whatever... man or woman.

> Mine:

> 1.) Donna Summer
> 2.) Res
> 3.) Erukah Badu

some people said moz was a racist. it doesn't mean she isn't a good musician. (and yes, i am aware of her comments about not liking how white people bought her album.)

Jimi lived in London, but to my knowledge he never became a British citizen. Born in Seattle.

Bob Marley
Marvin Gaye
Rankin' Roger
Toni Braxton
Billie Holliday

Was bob marley african-american?

And rankin'roger. Wasn't he in The Beat? Or The English Beat, as they're known stateside.

well, jamaica falls within our imperialistic demense. the rest of the western hemisphere is our slum. so yes, bob marley was descended from africans and lived in the americas, thus making him african-american. having lived in latin america, i know they're quick to remind snooty gringos that the US isn't the only country in AMERICA.

> well, jamaica falls within our imperialistic demense. the rest of the
> western hemisphere is our slum. so yes, bob marley was descended from
> africans and lived in the americas, thus making him african-american.
> having lived in latin america, i know they're quick to remind snooty
> gringos that the US isn't the only country in AMERICA.

Okay, so bob marley was african-american. Everyone agree on that? Good.

And ranking roger?

1. Bob Marley & the Wailers
2. Miles Davis
3. Prince
4. Lee 'Scratch' Perry

you got me. i was thinking "american or british."

i like ponce, i mean prince too. "kiss" "when doves cry" "nothing compares 2 u" "little red corvette" "gett off"

michael jackson... "don't stop til you get enough"

He gets my vote.

> I know, Mozzer is perceived (fairly or perhaps unfairly) to be indifferent
> to Black-originated trends in music like jazz, rap, soul, hip hop...

> Yet, mozfans are a sophisticated bunch, yet I was mighty disappointed that
> while Britpop and white Americans are being discussed, no one ever
> discussed ANY black artists... OK, Loafing Oaf once mentioned his love for
> some rap act I forgot... Others? Let's have a 'lit fun tonite...

> Please, list 3 fav Black (Afroamerican) musicians of yours... could be
> rap, jazz, whatever... man or woman.

> Mine:

> 1.) Donna Summer
> 2.) Res
> 3.) Erukah Badu

i'm not saying that to be evil, but seriously, how much posthumous material can they release?!

Hell yeah!

I totally forgot about Michael Jackson, (He's not really black anymore, you know!) His first three albums are amazing.

Oh, let's see:

Outkast (recent)
Public Enemy
Ice Cube (early)
Stevie Wonder (not since the late 70's)
4-Tops
Booker T and the MG's
Parliament-Funkadelic
Prince
Bob marley
Coltrane

It's hard not to keep going, but that should give some idea

I didn't even think about it. well, I'm sure someone would have pointed it out sooner or later, so consider this a pre-emptive 'Can't You Count?'.

Billie Holliday
Louis Armstrong
Ray Charles

> I know, Mozzer is perceived (fairly or perhaps unfairly) to be indifferent
> to Black-originated trends in music like jazz, rap, soul, hip hop...

> Yet, mozfans are a sophisticated bunch, yet I was mighty disappointed that
> while Britpop and white Americans are being discussed, no one ever
> discussed ANY black artists... OK, Loafing Oaf once mentioned his love for
> some rap act I forgot... Others? Let's have a 'lit fun tonite...

> Please, list 3 fav Black (Afroamerican) musicians of yours... could be
> rap, jazz, whatever... man or woman.

> Mine:

> 1.) Donna Summer
> 2.) Res
> 3.) Erukah Badu

> Hell yeah!

> I totally forgot about Michael Jackson, (He's not really black anymore,
> you know!) His first three albums are amazing.

1. Prince
2. Billy Holiday
3. Al Green
4. Curtis Mayfield

Also, speaking about black divas, one could add Minnie Ripperton (her daughter plays at current Saturday Nite cast) and Patti LaBelle...
More modern 'diva' stuff: Jill Scott is so cool!

Randy Crawford 'Street Life'. She is sooo underrated!

Speaking of rap/metal, Ice T deserves a mention... Jay-Z, this guy has a plenty of spunk about him...

For classic rock purists, Sly and The Family Stone and Arthur Lee of Love.

Plus a whole soul train of more and more...
I happen to like Bobby Womack song 42nd Street and Pam Grier songs from Jackie Brown motion picture soundtrack...

Jazz: Coltraine, Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzerald...

and so on...

Most embarrasing moment in my life... I had a client at prestigious office at Santa Monica, near beach... Being dressed up at suit and tie, I'm driving back from the parking lot after stressful 2 hour meeting, while thoughtlessly listening Brandy and Monica duet CD 'The Boy Is Mine' in my car, and mindlessly humming along... "... THE BOY IS MINE!!!" Then I see 2 black girls at the ticket booth laughing their asses off... While driving out at Wilshire I realize with HORROR: I just acted out the worst gay stereotype imaginable: what more gay could be?!

> Most embarrasing moment in my life... I had a client at prestigious office
> at Santa Monica, near beach... Being dressed up at suit and tie, I'm
> driving back from the parking lot after stressful 2 hour meeting, while
> thoughtlessly listening Brandy and Monica duet CD 'The Boy Is Mine' in my
> car, and mindlessly humming along... "... THE BOY IS MINE!!!"
> Then I see 2 black girls at the ticket booth laughing their asses off...
> While driving out at Wilshire I realize with HORROR: I just acted out the
> worst gay stereotype imaginable: what more gay could be?!

Also the client was a financial company for which promotional booklet I did a graphic design... That was pretty gay too... :-)

Also, I spent their entire check on my Palm Spring White Party weekend.

I declare myself guilty on all counts... :-)

haha, "the boy is mine story" reminds me of a cherished high school memory.

i was secretary of my school's chapter of the future business leaders of america (where i was known as the "commie" member, simply because i was all for responsible business and not take no prisoners capitalism). anyway, we had competitions and conferences and such. sometimes there would be talent shows. at one such talent show, one group of kids made fun of the california state FBLA president using that song. all these guys fought over a guy wearing a mask of the pres! it was so funny, and they got in soooo much trouble. i guess you had to be there.

> Also the client was a financial company for which promotional booklet I
> did a graphic design... That was pretty gay too... :-)

True.

> Also, I spent their entire check on my Palm Spring White Party weekend.

False. That was my feeble attempt at humour. White party (WeHo gym boys on steroids & anabolics & bad cologne & more steroids) is that kind of event I would truly abhore and least likely to be present at. Aside of that, I like Palm Springs...

Also, last Brandy album Full Moon was so horrible, techno computer junk and all, so fucking overproduced her objectively heavenly voice was totally blocked off by all those bleeps and beeps... it was so sad... it is like those MTV types would be able to totally ruin even a finer performer... I had 'nuff common sense to listen it first and not to buy...

> I declare myself guilty on all counts... :-)

On first one only...

> I know, Mozzer is perceived (fairly or perhaps unfairly) to be indifferent
> to Black-originated trends in music like jazz, rap, soul, hip hop...

> Yet, mozfans are a sophisticated bunch, yet I was mighty disappointed that
> while Britpop and white Americans are being discussed, no one ever
> discussed ANY black artists... OK, Loafing Oaf once mentioned his love for
> some rap act I forgot... Others? Let's have a 'lit fun tonite...

> Please, list 3 fav Black (Afroamerican) musicians of yours... could be
> rap, jazz, whatever... man or woman.

> Mine:

> 1.) Donna Summer
> 2.) Res
> 3.) Erukah Badu

Tricky
[and the 60's 70's Motown , Philly sound artist]

> I know, Mozzer is perceived (fairly or perhaps unfairly) to be indifferent
> to Black-originated trends in music like jazz, rap, soul, hip hop...

> Yet, mozfans are a sophisticated bunch, yet I was mighty disappointed that
> while Britpop and white Americans are being discussed, no one ever
> discussed ANY black artists... OK, Loafing Oaf once mentioned his love for
> some rap act I forgot... Others? Let's have a 'lit fun tonite...

> Please, list 3 fav Black (Afroamerican) musicians of yours... could be
> rap, jazz, whatever... man or woman.

> Mine:

> 1.) Donna Summer
> 2.) Res
> 3.) Erukah Badu

1. Marley
2. Hendrix
3. Gaye

> some people said moz was a racist. it doesn't mean she isn't a good
> musician. (and yes, i am aware of her comments about not liking how white
> people bought her album.)

I can't remember her explanation for that, but she talked to Howard Stern about it right after she was getting heat, and I remember being satisfied that she wasn't a racist. Of course I was forgiving because I like her music.

don't know who the other fellow is.

> don't know who the other fellow is.

Mindy, I saw him in movies loads of times before you were even born. Sure you're not getting him mixed up with someone else? Like ally johnson, who used to play for brechin city?

uh al jolson was white. he was famous for performing in blackface, which may be why you're confused. he was a lithuanian jew for heaven's sake.

http://us.imdb.com/Name?Jolson,+Al

http://www.dinesp.fsnet.co.uk/jolson.htm

does this look like a brother to you?




http://www.morrissey-solo.com/discuss/images/pic96840.jpg

> uh al jolson was white. he was famous for performing in blackface, which
> may be why you're confused. he was a lithuanian jew for heaven's sake.

> http://us.imdb.com/Name?Jolson,+Al
> http://www.dinesp.fsnet.co.uk/jolson.htm does this look like a brother to
> you?

That's a different guy. The one I know was definitely black. He sang a song that went,
Mammee, maaaaaaammeeeee, I'd walk a million miles for one of your smiles,
my maaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Brilliant stuff.

was it in a movie called "mammy" right?

http://www.letssingit.com/?http://www.letssingit.com/al-jolson-my-mammy-dfgp427.html

those are the lyrics to the song "to my mammy" from the movie "mammy" which starred al jolson in blackface. i think you'll notice they're the same as the ones you posted.

> was it in a movie called "mammy" right?

>
> http://www.letssingit.com/?http://www.letssingit.com/al-jolson-my-mammy-dfgp427.html
> those are the lyrics to the song "to my mammy" from the movie
> "mammy" which starred al jolson in blackface. i think you'll
> notice they're the same as the ones you posted.

Mindy, LOL. For god's sake, Al Jolson was as white as the driven snow and as offensive as Henry Rollins' BO - has anyone here EVER met a brother called Al?

"Look who bought the myth ..."

well, in all fairness, it's considered offensive now. but back then, minstrel shows were a very popular on vaudeville. hence al believed black performers were more fully embraced by audiences (got bigger laughs, etc.) and he started performing in black face. now, no one would dream of doing that, but it was a different time.

it's kind of like how "birth of a nation" is considered such an evil, racist film now, when back then, it wasn't. i mean, even now, GWTW is considered racist -- and all but one black person in that is presented in a positive light. (that would be prissy -- who is really annoying, but it's more because she's a little kid than black. there is a black guy who tries to hurt scarlett, but he's accompanied by a white guy, so it's not necessarily a comment on blacks.)

"has anyone here EVER met a brother called Al?"

I have. My friend Steve has a brother called Al.

That's all true - but the fact remains that for Jolson "blackness" was wholly encapsulated by the colour of one's skin. The logic being you simply apply shoe polish, and "hey presto - instant nigger!" - then you're automatically seen as "simple", "humourous", "subserviant", "alien", etc (the immediate response to all of these modes is laughter, that most rudimetary and debased of human emotions).

From where I sit, it's sickening by any standard, on the same level as animated golliwogs and 'Little Black Sambo', and you can't help but condemn Jolson, because on every level he was clearly aware of what he was doing.

> That's all true - but the fact remains that for Jolson
> "blackness" was wholly encapsulated by the colour of one's skin.
> The logic being you simply apply shoe polish, and "hey presto -
> instant nigger!" - then you're automatically seen as
> "simple", "humourous", "subserviant",
> "alien", etc (the immediate response to all of these modes is
> laughter, that most rudimetary and debased of human emotions).

> From where I sit, it's sickening by any standard, on the same level as
> animated golliwogs and 'Little Black Sambo', and you can't help but
> condemn Jolson, because on every level he was clearly aware of what he was
> doing.

i still refuse to condemn him because it was another time and place, and it wasn't considered evil at the time. at worst, it was considered patronizing.

(i should mention that i am the most politically incorrect liberal on the planet. i'm not racist. i'm just not as easily offended as a lot of people. and i'm not as often offended for other people either. maybe that's wrong, but it's a reaction to how overly politically correct society has gotten. people need to grow up and learn that part of life is offending and being offended.)

oh, and what about al sharpton?!

> i still refuse to condemn him because it was another time and place, and
> it wasn't considered evil at the time. at worst, it was considered
> patronizing.

Well, we're the product of the society we're raised in, and that's where the condemnation ought to be directed. So perhaps Mr Jolson cannot be blamed, per se, but perhaps what Hitler was doing wasn't considered evil at the time, either. I think we oughtn't to be afraid to judge others by our own contemporary standards, to refuse to do so is in many ways to be complicit with those outdated standards.

> (i should mention that i am the most politically incorrect liberal on the
> planet. i'm not racist. i'm just not as easily offended as a lot of
> people. and i'm not as often offended for other people either. maybe
> that's wrong, but it's a reaction to how overly politically correct
> society has gotten. people need to grow up and learn that part of life is
> offending and being offended.)

Agree with you wholeheartedly. I regularly get great mileage out of being as deliberately un-PC as I possibly can, but that's in the context of people knowing my true beliefs. It's ironic, and the problem with irony is that it's often much to subtle for unsophisticated political schemas (and sadly the political left is often home to the least-sophisticated, most-reactionary politics on the face of the planet). Jolson was not being in any way ironic or sophisticated (or at least I find no evidence of this). He was being simplistic and culturally backward in the interest of making a rapid buck.

> oh, and what about al sharpton?!

Cultural relativism never got anyone anywhere.

> Well, we're the product of the society we're raised in, and that's where
> the condemnation ought to be directed. So perhaps Mr Jolson cannot be
> blamed, per se, but perhaps what Hitler was doing wasn't considered evil
> at the time, either. I think we oughtn't to be afraid to judge others by
> our own contemporary standards, to refuse to do so is in many ways to be
> complicit with those outdated standards.

well i concede on that point. i mean, obviously, what al jolson did would NEVER fly today and rightly so. i think it's good though to look back on it to see how different things were and how much they've changed for the better. it's a fascinating and heartbreaking epoch in our history and one worthy of being revisited for the lessons that can be learned.

> Agree with you wholeheartedly. I regularly get great mileage out of being
> as deliberately un-PC as I possibly can, but that's in the context of
> people knowing my true beliefs. It's ironic, and the problem with irony is
> that it's often much to subtle for unsophisticated political schemas (and
> sadly the political left is often home to the least-sophisticated,
> most-reactionary politics on the face of the planet). Jolson was not being
> in any way ironic or sophisticated (or at least I find no evidence of
> this). He was being simplistic and culturally backward in the interest of
> making a rapid buck.

well, sometimes my beliefs are genuinely un-PC, but most of the time, i am being ironic. there are just certain things we're expected to be PC about that i just disagree with. i can't think of any off of the top of my head, but well, i'm a little dizzy in the morning,

> Cultural relativism never got anyone anywhere.

i meant he was a brother and he's black.

This debate is all very well, but the Al Jolson I'm talking about was black. I saw him on the telly loads of times. Besides, why would he pretend to be black? Was there discrimination against whites in the marketplace?
Was it really that difficult for whites to get work? I don't think so.
I still reckon you're all thinking of Ally Johnson who used to play for Brechin City. He was white. Still is probably.It's an easy mistake to make.

The sun shines east
the sun shines west
but we all know
where the sunshine's best

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
My heart.........um, I forget the rest

"I still reckon you're all thinking of Ally Johnson who used to play for Brechin City. He was white. Still is probably.It's an easy mistake to make"

Superb. are you a Brechin City fan?

patrick, this is getting really old and stupid. look it up on the internet. there was only one al jolson and he was a white man who performed mainly in blackface. believe me. i used to be really into old movies and old hollywood (my greatgrandfather was a famous character actor who you may have seen in movies ranging from kubrick's "paths of glory" to disney's "pollyanna"). anyway, he did it because during the days of vaudeville in the 1910s and 20s, black minstrel performers were really popular -- and so were white performers in blackface (i.e. eddie cantor). this was the jazz age, remember, which culminated in the harlem renaissance -- a flowering of black music, art, and literature. anyway, al jolson is one of many performers who chose to perform in blackface, mainly because he thought he'd get more laughs. he could act "goofier," etc.

the movie you are talking about is "mammy." i proved it by finding the lyrics. and al jolson, A WHITE MAN, was the star who sang that song. END OF STORY.

I'm surprised that no mention has been made of the Sonny Boy quotation in "The Hand That Rocks the Cradle".

Consulting "Goddard", I can confirm that this is from an Al Jolson song.

Unfortunately, the book does not make clear Jolson's colour, nor mention Brechin City, so it looks like the jury is still out on that one.

i posted several links to webpages about al jolson. he was white. blanco. blanc. argh!

here is a link to his filmography and some biographical information (how many lithuanian jews do you know who are black? plus, in the picture, you can see he's white): http://us.imdb.com/Name?Jolson,+Al

the filmography proves that this al jolson is the al jolson that patrick has in mind (he's the one and only) and that he was white.

don't make me post more links showing more pictures of whitey.

No, mate - Mindy is 100% correct. The songs you are quoting were all sung by Al Jolson in blackface. There is not, and has never been another prominent entertainer I'm aware of called Al Jolson - certianly the one who sang the songs you mentioned was WHITE. It's one of those interesting sociological phenomenon that many of the earliest popular "black" cinematic roles were played by a white man. I can't fully explain it - but clearly its a racism of sorts. The same thing happened with the portayal of aborigines in early Australian cinema.
There really is no argument here - Al Jolson was white.

> i meant he was a brother and he's black.

Sorry, misunderstood that one - brainless nong that I am. Apologies.

it's okay. :P

in another post, for which i was rightly reprimanded, i completely ignored the fact that someone said we used nukes in vietnam. lmao. was i high?

Mindy and Crushing Bore - I'm sorry, but I was joking. I didn't think anyone would bite. Sorry about that.
I created a monster that got out of control.

Now I know how Dr. Frankenstein felt (as the flames rose ....etc.)

> Superb. are you a Brechin City fan?

Being a football connoisseur, I have no choice.

That's a shame - I was looking forward to the next instalment. Do you think there's any mileage in Nick Berry?

Perhaps not




http://www.morrissey-solo.com/discuss/images/pic97085.jpg

at first i suspected you were messing around since i know al jolson is white and, even though i couldn't find any pictures of nick berry, i found that he worked with a lot of white artists, which isn't proof that he was also white. but you kept it going WAY too long. sheesh.

> Being a football connoisseur, I have no choice.

the true football connoisseurs support Wrexham, but if you're a Scottish connoisseur, Dundee United.

> Mindy and Crushing Bore - I'm sorry, but I was joking. I didn't think
> anyone would bite. Sorry about that.
> I created a monster that got out of control.

> Now I know how Dr. Frankenstein felt (as the flames rose ....etc.)

Well, irony doesn't often come across so well in print. So, pardon my serious-ness (maybe use more smileys next time?).
But on that note, I return to my Vanilla Ice post ...

> it's okay. :P

> in another post, for which i was rightly reprimanded, i completely ignored
> the fact that someone said we used nukes in vietnam. lmao. was i high?

Yes I saw that exchange, but I just thought 'this guy is clearly such a f*ck-knuckle, people are obviously ignoring such an obviously dumb-arsed statement'. It would be like arguing with someone that the sky was green, or that Al Jolson was white! Ummmmmm, hang on . . . .