Being a rockabilly fan, I hear a lot of Alain, Gary and Boz and they ARE good musicians. They have played for Moz for 12 years or more and who knows what the band dynamics are like just now. It's a two way street, Moz owes them as well. I don't think the musicians from 'Vauxhall and I' and 'Your Arsenal' should be demonised because they seem lacklustre this tour. I saw Boz with the Polecats over 20 years ago, since then he has played with many big names, do you really think this guy is not an established musician ? I agree that the band looked bored at RAH, Alain seemed to be in a daze, but you don't just stop being a good musician, maybe they were jetlagged.

I haven't been keeping up with all the band-bashing, but perhaps the people who have been complaining about their performances are newer, younger fans who don't really know their history. I doubt that knowledgeable fans would be so hard on the guys.

Just a thought.

> Being a rockabilly fan, I hear a lot of Alain, Gary and Boz and they ARE
> good musicians. They have played for Moz for 12 years or more and who
> knows what the band dynamics are like just now. It's a two way street, Moz
> owes them as well. I don't think the musicians from 'Vauxhall and I' and
> 'Your Arsenal' should be demonised because they seem lacklustre this tour.
> I saw Boz with the Polecats over 20 years ago, since then he has played
> with many big names, do you really think this guy is not an established
> musician ? I agree that the band looked bored at RAH, Alain seemed to be
> in a daze, but you don't just stop being a good musician, maybe they were
> jetlagged.

Jet-lagged during the west coast shows too? I highly doubt it. I just think they've lost their enthusiasm. There is no denying that their playing on this tour is subpar. They aren't putting any effort into bringing the songs to life, and that is not to slam them, it's just a sad truth that my ears can't deny. Maybe I shouldn't Q-Tip everyday?

I have followed Morrissey since the mid 80's with The Smiths, so I am fully aware of his history. In the early days, Morrissey was always such a perfectionist. There once was a time when he wouldn't settle for 2nd best. So why is it that now he settles for 3rd or 4th best?

I'm not trying to slag off the band, there was a time when I found their playing to perfectly compliment Morrissey, and they would 'get into' their performance and enjoy themselves on stage. What's troubling is that now they seem like they'd be having more fun playing shuffleboard on a cruise with senior citizens. They totally lack passion and enthusiasm and they're just muddling through the songs.

I hope Morrissey can hear what's happening to his band. I hope he hasn't grown a deaf ear to the C- performance of his band. I can understand having loyalty to members that have been around for many years, but there has to be some form of quality control or the ship sinks.

So someone can be forgiven for putting in shit performances if they were good in the past? Oh pur-lease - what a pathetic argument.

> I haven't been keeping up with all the band-bashing, but perhaps the
> people who have been complaining about their performances are newer,
> younger fans who don't really know their history. I doubt that
> knowledgeable fans would be so hard on the guys.

> Just a thought.

> I'm not trying to slag off the band, there was a time when I found their
> playing to perfectly compliment Morrissey, and they would 'get into' their
> performance and enjoy themselves on stage. What's troubling is that now
> they seem like they'd be having more fun playing shuffleboard on a cruise
> with senior citizens. They totally lack passion and enthusiasm and they're
> just muddling through the songs.

> I hope Morrissey can hear what's happening to his band. I hope he hasn't
> grown a deaf ear to the C- performance of his band. I can understand
> having loyalty to members that have been around for many years, but there
> has to be some form of quality control or the ship sinks.

A perfectionist Morrissey may have been, but, as I've said here a million times before, he is notoriously resistant to change. He is also drastically out of touch with the current music scene and his reclusiveness doesn't lend itself to going out and making new, FRESH musical contacts. Besides, we don't know about the dynamics of his relationships with Boz and Alain. Remember this was a man who tried to entice Johnny Marr back to the fold by playing with the Smiths rhythm section and Craig Gannon on the earlier singles. Perhaps he fears another defection, which would leave him with NO ONE to work with.

As for their lack of vim and vigor on stage, it's been no secret that Morrissey reined in the craziness b/c it detracted from focus on HIM. Thus, no more smashing of guitars and Boz running around like a loose psych ward inmate. Gary Day was only brought back b/c he had settled down. And they aren't exactly hungry twentysomethings anymore. If they acted that way now, the same people complaining about their lack of energy would pull the "aged teddy boys looking ridiculous" card and bitch about that.

Plus, after years of primarily playing material that they penned, how would you feel in Alain and Boz's shoes if all of a sudden you were resurrecting these tunes that you played 8 gazillion times on two previous whirlwind tours? You're not likely to be as enthusiastic if you have to go back to being a glorified karaoke band. Not to mention having to play Smiths songs and await the odious and misplaced comparisons that the majority of the fans will make. Hell, maybe they're just tired of waiting for him to sign a fucking contract and record some new music.

Whatever the case, most of you complainers (esp. the diehard Smithsheads) know deep in your hearts that you would be bitching and moaning just as much about the musicians who replace the Lads. Nothing is ever good enough.

Cheers,

Jamie

AMEN! i wish people would leave the lads alone. they have written a lot of really great songs over the years - almost none of which have been played during tour 2002. i can see how that might be frustrating. but the thing is, i dont think they sound bad anyway!

for all you people bitching about the lads: did you even hear morrissey's voice? seriously, if i had spent as much time as you worrying about the lads, i dont think id have actually listened for his voice and gorgeous lyrics. for me, the words, the voice, and the man have always been the most important thing. he could sing with a mariachi band for all i care, and id still be engrossed in his voice and his words and his entire person.

all these delusional people hoping for a smiths reunion annoy me as well. i love the smiths, but things change. morrissey's career, in my eyes, makes a logical progression. you look at his records from "the smiths" to "maladjusted" and you are watching this beautiful man grow up.

> Whatever the case, most of you complainers (esp. the diehard Smithsheads)
> know deep in your hearts that you would be bitching and moaning just as
> much about the musicians who replace the Lads. Nothing is ever good
> enough.

Not me. I'd welcome a change in musicians with open arms as long as they show at least an ounce of enthusiasm! I stick around to hear Morrissey sing, and it's only fair that his band do him justice. These boys are acting like a tired old karaoke band which is a real shame. I'm not saying they should be leaping around on stage, but they could at least play their instruments with some feeling and emotion. Maybe it's a side effect of Paxil?

Morrissey deserves more than a band that's only going through the motions.

It is about his beautiful voice, but the band is supposed to be there to add color and life to what he sings. The band is essential in bringing the songs to life. Morrissey is in top form vocally, but the band sheds a dim light on an otherwise flawless vocal performance. The way the guys are playing recently is sloppy and haphazard. They aren't adding the life to the songs like they once did, they are draining the life from them.

I agree, he is in top form these days, and the band is at an all time low, it seems like such a waste. Imagine if he was performing with a band whose passion and talent equalled his own! He deserves that, and the world would have to take notice of him again. He doesn't make things easy for himself though, does he.

>all these delusional people hoping for a smiths reunion annoy me as well.

Judging by what Marr has done in the past 13 years, I don't think Morrissey's
career would've gone so well had Marr not dumped him. Marr basically was tired of being a great musician, flushed his talent down the toilet, jumped on trendy projects that haven't stood the test of time, and worked as a session musician.
Marr's post-Smiths career is a fucking tragedy. I kinda liked The Healers' single,"Last Ride," but that was two years ago and I haven't heard another peep from them. Sad to see such talented wasted.

you're right. i mean, johnny's whole deal was that he thought the smiths were stagnant. he wanted to pursue other musical directions which morrissey was apparently resistent to. and where did johnny's meanderings lead him? to obscurity. thank you. i love johnny of course. he is a brilliant guitarist and composer, but he and morrissey had a certain magic between them. morrissey is magical enough on his own, but i'm afraid johnny isnt.

And it's not asking for that much, is it? I think Morrissey has earned at least that much.

> Not me. I'd welcome a change in musicians with open arms as long as they
> show at least an ounce of enthusiasm! I stick around to hear Morrissey
> sing, and it's only fair that his band do him justice. These boys are
> acting like a tired old karaoke band which is a real shame. I'm not saying
> they should be leaping around on stage, but they could at least play their
> instruments with some feeling and emotion. Maybe it's a side effect of
> Paxil?

> Morrissey deserves more than a band that's only going through the motions.

> And it's not asking for that much, is it? I think Morrissey has earned at
> least that much.

Sure he has. But he's also got no other sources. Ironically, I think some people view The Lads as interchangeable as lawnmower parts, the same argument levied against "the other two" in the Smiths which raises so many purist hackles. It's easy to abstract this and not examine the parties involved as human beings with feelings who have developed a camaraderie with Morrissey after many long years on the road. Certainly if HE felt something was amiss with the quality, he would have canned their collective arses years ago.

I should have added, too, in my first post that from the fan interactions with Boz and Alain on this tour, it would appear they are more interested in recording now and wanting to get to the business at hand there. Probably also colours the tour experience a bit.

Ultimately, I think the "separate camps" on this issue should just agree to disagree. It's not an issue of appreciating Morrissey's end of it any less. And having been here for over five years, it's nice every once and a while to see a thread have PASSION involved without devolving into kindergarten recess idiocy.

Cheers,

Jamie

> So someone can be forgiven for putting in shit performances if they were
> good in the past? Oh pur-lease - what a pathetic argument.

With all due respect, Girl Drowning, it is YOU who is pathetic for not understanding the argument. Hibernianbilly was taking issue with people who slag off the overall talent of the band because of one or two off-nights.

Hibernianbilly's quote says it all: "you don't just stop being a good musician."

Hey there's no need to start calling people pathetic for disagreeing with you, and you are the one who doesn't seem to understand the argument if you think people are saying the band had "one or two off-nights". From the sound of it they have been disinterested and obviously bored for most if not all of the tour. Talented or not, that is unacceptable and they're letting Moz down, they should be giving their all and they're not.
And I agree with GD, just because they were better in the past doesn't mean it's ok for them to be crap now. And what does knowing (or not knowing)their history have to do with it? People's reaction to the shows are just as valid whether they've been fans forever, or they don't even own an album and have never seen him live before. If the band are letting the side down, it's fair enough to criticise them for it.

> Sure he has. But he's also got no other sources. Ironically, I think some
> people view The Lads as interchangeable as lawnmower parts, the same
> argument levied against "the other two" in the Smiths which
> raises so many purist hackles.

Yes but The Smiths was a BAND, Morrissey is a SOLO-ARTIST. There's a massive difference between the two, and as a solo artist, his backing band IS about as readily replced as lawnmower parts, if that's what Morrissey decided to do.

Did you notice in the Janice Long session how Morrissey neatly (if rather obviously) side-stepped the question about whether or not he and the band were looking for a record deal as a PACKAGE? He completely changed the subject without answering. Must have been quite strained with the band right there listening in. Or then again maybe they know their place and are comfortable with it. Although if that's the case I'm surprised he didn't just answer.

> Certainly if HE felt something was amiss with the quality, he would have
> canned their collective arses years ago.

Maybe, maybe not. Morrissey may have a history of ditching people when he feels they have crossed him or let him down, but when has he ever ditched someone because they weren't good enough? By all accounts he was not at all happy with the quality of Kill Uncle, yet the only reason he stopped writing with Mark Nevin was because he declined Morrissey's request for him to tour with him, so he had to replace him for the tour, and you know Morrissey doesn't ask twice, if you say no to him you're out for good. (Like when Vinnie Reilly declined Morrissey's offer to do the next album with him, and as a result he never spoke to him again.)

It's great the band is looking forward to recording the album, but that's no excuse for sleep-walking through the tour. As many people here have said, Morrissey deserves better than that, he deserves them to throw themselves into it and make it as good as they can. Especially in light of the possibility that part of the purpose of the tour is to try to attract a record deal. No matter how good Morrissey's performance is, surely record companies would be put off to some degree if the band and songwriters look and sound like they couldn't care less.

> Hey there's no need to start calling people pathetic for disagreeing with
> you,

I used the term "pathetic" because Girl Drowning used it first.

> And I agree with GD, just because they were better in the past doesn't
> mean it's ok for them to be crap now.

A-ha! But would you consider their playing "crap," just because they don't have smiles on their faces??

> And what does knowing (or not
> knowing)their history have to do with it? People's reaction to the shows
> are just as valid whether they've been fans forever, or they don't even
> own an album and have never seen him live before. If the band are letting
> the side down, it's fair enough to criticise them for it.

I agree - it IS fair to criticize them for it.
However, writing them off as crap is not a justifiable criticism.

By that same token, would you call Morrissey "crap" on the basis of his latest songs (absolutely sub-par to some of his excellent past work)?

That's all I'm saying.

No, but I haven't seen anyone here say the band is crap because they're not smiling or jumping around. The complaint sseems to be that they just don't seem to care anymore, their hearts aren't in it, they're not doing the best they can, and the show is suffering musically as well as visually as a result. Have you seen them play yet on this tour? If not then I don't expect you to know what everyone is going on about, you'll just have to see for yourself.

> A-ha! But would you consider their playing "crap," just because
> they don't have smiles on their faces??

'She said it first' ner ner ner-ner ner! Jesus! First you leave me to drown coz you've had a busy day and now this!

> I used the term "pathetic" because Girl Drowning used it first.

> 'She said it first' ner ner ner-ner ner!

I'm just defending my actions.

> Jesus! First you leave me to
> drown coz you've had a busy day and now this!

Hey, we were short-staffed that day!
What were you doing out that far, anyway?!?

> No, but I haven't seen anyone here say the band is crap because they're
> not smiling or jumping around. The complaint sseems to be that they just
> don't seem to care anymore, their hearts aren't in it, they're not doing
> the best they can, and the show is suffering musically as well as visually
> as a result.

I will acquiesce in defeat to this debate. I admittedly did not read all the posts, but commented on Hibernianbilly's take on it.

I do maintain, however, that there are those whose loyalties fall short with certain artists who can't maintain the level of enthusiasm that they're used to seeing from them and, in doing so, render their total output as "crap."

> Have you seen them play yet on this tour? If not then I don't
> expect you to know what everyone is going on about, you'll just have to
> see for yourself.

I can't; I'm broke and in the American midwest - a dangerous combination. I'm teetering on the brink of white-trashdom.

> I will acquiesce in defeat to this debate. I admittedly did not read all
> the posts, but commented on Hibernianbilly's take on it.

Well, good of you to admit it.

> I do maintain, however, that there are those whose loyalties fall short
> with certain artists who can't maintain the level of enthusiasm that
> they're used to seeing from them and, in doing so, render their total
> output as "crap."

That's true of course, but I'm impressed by many of the points people have made here, because for the most part they're quite insightful, and although if you don't agree with what people are saying it all sounds quite mean-spirited (or if you haven't seen and/or heard it for yourself), but I don't think that's what anyone intended - I really don't see any venom in it. I guess at first glance it might seem like some sort of Moz-bashing, but it's the opposite if anything. I think people are frustrated because Morrissey deserves perfection - or as close as is allowed!

> I can't; I'm broke and in the American midwest - a dangerous combination.
> I'm teetering on the brink of white-trashdom.

I'm sorry to hear that, hang on in there, sooner or later I'm sure he'll come your way. He seems to enjoy touring more and more all the time, so he'll probably be doing lots of it. Did you get the Fresno show? The band may be a bit blah, but Morrissey sounds fantastic. And you get all the chatting between songs too, it's almost like being there. (and no one screaming "You're my American idol!" into the mike over and over or singing along badly! A real treat.)